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The Constitutional Right to a Home

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  • 20-05-2019 10:32am
    #1
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭


    There is currently no specific law on the books that gives people a right to a home in Ireland.

    In 2014 The Constitutional Convention voted to have the right to housing...“expressly stated” in the Constitution.

    In 2017 the dail rejected a bill which sought to make housing a constitutional right.

    What say you, After Hours?

    What are the pros and cons? What difference would it make? What would be the attendant responsibility on the citizen on acquiring this new right? Would a right to a home be a right to a home in a preferred location?

    Would it force the government to build a rake of social housing? Would it force the government to increase taxes? Would it make any practical difference to our housing crisis or would it just be a platitude?

    A right to housing is already covered in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights but this came after our Constitution so i'm not sure how that works.


«1345

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    #2
    facehugger99
    Registered Users Posts: 7,225 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    Any proposed Constitutional amendment should include for adequate trampoline provision space.


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    #3
    TuringBot47
    Registered Users Posts: 991 ✭✭✭TuringBot47


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    There is currently no specific law on the books that gives people a right to a home in Ireland.

    Why would there be?

    Is there any other country in the world that does?

    A right to housing/accommodation is different to a right to a long term / permanent home.


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    #4
    Kingp35
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,248 Mod ✭✭✭✭Kingp35


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    There is currently no specific law on the books that gives people a right to a home in Ireland.

    I would hope it stays that way. The current right to shelter is perfectly adequate.


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    #5
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    TuringBot47 wrote: »
    Why would there be?

    Is there any other country in the world that does?

    i couldnt tell you but there are people calling for this to be introduced;

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/right-to-a-secure-home-must-be-added-to-constitution-say-advocates-1.3808858


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    #6
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Have we not learned by now to stop shoving stuff into our constitution.


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    #7
    GLaDOS
    Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 23,203 Mod ✭✭✭✭GLaDOS


    What would the actual practical effects of introducing this into the constitution be?

    I saw a lot of people angry that the recent proposal was rejected, but I'm wary of introducing stuff into the constitution willy nilly.

    Cake, and grief counseling, will be available at the conclusion of the test



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    #8
    valoren
    Registered Users Posts: 5,458 ✭✭✭valoren


    Shelter should be a constitutional right.

    There should be shelter properties which give access to a bed, washing facilities, a shelter with minimum temperature's for homeless (shelterless) people.

    Take an abandoned property. Develop it up to standard. It's not going to be luxury, it's going to be austere in a soviet russia "crying chair" way but it would give people shelter from the elements at a minimum.

    The legitimately homeless i.e. the one's with an actual emergency for shelter would be catered for and the willingly homeless i.e. the drunken bowsies, the toxic walking dead who are estranged from their families would also be catered for.


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    #9
    Cina
    Registered Users Posts: 2,387 ✭✭✭Cina


    Why should there be?

    In no other country in Europe is there such an obsession with owning a house as there is in Ireland. People won't even entertain the idea of an apartment, nope, need that back garden.

    We need to be more like the Germans and Belgians and actually implement laws and practices that allow people to rent long-term affordably, and more high-rise, family friendly apartments, instead of this stupid current system of building overpriced housing estates in the middle of our capital city. The entitlement culture here when it comes to owning a house is baffling, and why we have threads on boards every week complaining about the "homeless" getting their free houses.


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    #10
    Dohnjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 17,783 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    valoren wrote: »
    Shelter should be a constitutional right.

    There should be shelter properties which give access to a bed, washing facilities, a shelter with minimum temperature's for homeless (shelterless) people.

    Take an abandoned property. Develop it up to standard. It's not going to be luxury, it's going to be austere in a soviet russia way but it would give people shelter from the elements at a minimum.

    Not a bad idea, but as long as you are willing to pay the extra taxes to cover all this.


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    #11
    The_Brood
    Closed Accounts Posts: 838 ✭✭✭The_Brood


    Whether it is or it isn't doesn't make a lick of difference, if the will is not there they will find loopholes and delays and everything needed not to adequately implement it.

    You don't need a constitutional right, but you need a practical environment where most honest working class people have some kind of chance of owning a half decent home. That absolutely does not exist in some places, like Dublin, or anywhere close to it. It's an unlivable situation, and if/by the time it gets solved, it will be too late for those suffering now who have been suffering for a long time.

    This cannot be the western world, the developed world - that unless you are super rich or super poor, you must be forced to rent sub-standard flat until you retire and then you have nothing. It's an all out nightmare that requires an all out response, but it will not get anything close to it. Democracy has well and truly failed if these are the results.


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    #12
    TuringBot47
    Registered Users Posts: 991 ✭✭✭TuringBot47


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    i couldnt tell you but there are people calling for this to be introduced;

    There are always "people" calling for free stuff.
    Just because a "group" managed to put some clickbait proposition into a newspaper on a slow news day doesn't mean it'll happen.

    And it would be political suicide to tell all the middle class/coping class voters that they're now going to have to pay for houses for others too. More than they are already.


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    #13
    Former Observer
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 474 ✭✭Former Observer


    The state of rental apartments in this country is abominable. Tacky places filled with cheap disposable furniture. We could learn a lot from the Germans and Americans on building generous, solid apartments with a bit of character that you furnish yourselves and could maybe call a home.


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    #14
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Finland did a pretty good job

    https://www.theguardian.com/housing-network/2017/mar/22/finland-solved-homelessness-eu-crisis-housing-first


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    #15
    The_Brood
    Closed Accounts Posts: 838 ✭✭✭The_Brood


    Cina wrote: »
    Why should there be?

    In no other country in Europe is there such an obsession with owning a house as there is in Ireland. People won't even entertain the idea of an apartment, nope, need that back garden.

    We need to be more like the Germans and Belgians and actually implement laws and practices that allow people to rent long-term affordably, and more high-rise, family friendly apartments, instead of this stupid current system of building overpriced housing estates in the middle of our capital city. The entitlement culture here when it comes to owning a house is baffling, and why we have threads on boards every week complaining about the "homeless" getting their free houses.


    The main difference is the rents aren't absurdly high there where most of your salary goes into paying for your shelter, leaving you with little else. Unless there is a dramatic change with that in Dublin (there won't be, that's for sure) owning a home is indeed a necessity if you don't want to be ****ed out of luck when you retire.


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    #16
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    No, its nonsense from Sinn Fein as usual.

    And, lets not forget the SF have repeatedly reduced the LPT thereby reducing the funds available to local government to tackle homelessness while also repeatedly calling for more funding from central government.

    Just where do they thing those funds are going to come from?


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    #17
    valoren
    Registered Users Posts: 5,458 ✭✭✭valoren


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    Not a bad idea, but as long as you are willing to pay the extra taxes to cover all this.

    Of course there will be costs but private citizens who by whatever machination find themselves without shelter can be catered for. I think there are 514 registered homeless people in Cork City. I'm sure it won't cost billions to shelter them.


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    #18
    TuringBot47
    Registered Users Posts: 991 ✭✭✭TuringBot47


    The_Brood wrote: »
    Whether it is or it isn't doesn't make a lick of difference, if the will is not there they will find loopholes and delays and everything needed not to adequately implement it.

    And then... because it would be in the constitution, people would take a high court action against the government (paid for by the taxpayer) if they didn't get their house in a timely manner.

    We'd also be flooded by asylum seekers.


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    #19
    Antares35
    Registered Users Posts: 3,845 ✭✭✭Antares35


    TuringBot47 wrote: »
    Why would there be?

    Is there any other country in the world that does?

    A right to housing/accommodation is different to a right to a long term / permanent home.

    The South African Constitution provides for the right to adequate housing.
    (Extract)

    26. Housing
    1. Everyone has the right to have access to adequate housing.

    2. The state must take reasonable legislative and other measures, within its available resources, to achieve the progressive realisation of this right.

    3. No one may be evicted from their home, or have their home demolished, without an order of court made after considering all the relevant circumstances. No legislation may permit arbitrary evictions.

    I don't think there should be a right to ownership of a property, but I think there should be a right to adequate shelter.


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    #20
    Antares35
    Registered Users Posts: 3,845 ✭✭✭Antares35


    valoren wrote: »
    Shelter should be a constitutional right.

    There should be shelter properties which give access to a bed, washing facilities, a shelter with minimum temperature's for homeless (shelterless) people.

    Take an abandoned property. Develop it up to standard. It's not going to be luxury, it's going to be austere in a soviet russia "crying chair" way but it would give people shelter from the elements at a minimum.

    The legitimately homeless i.e. the one's with an actual emergency for shelter would be catered for and the willingly homeless i.e. the drunken bowsies, the toxic walking dead who are estranged from their families would also be catered for.

    :D:D


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    #21
    Cina
    Registered Users Posts: 2,387 ✭✭✭Cina


    The_Brood wrote: »
    The main difference is the rents aren't absurdly high there where most of your salary goes into paying for your shelter, leaving you with little else. Unless there is a dramatic change with that in Dublin (there won't be, that's for sure) owning a home is indeed a necessity if you don't want to be ****ed out of luck when you retire.

    Yeah but that's exactly what I said in my post.


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    #22
    dotsman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,635 ✭✭✭dotsman


    Putting it in to the constitution is another stupid idea coming from the same people who are the cause of the crisis.
    • Putting it in the constitution won't magically increase the supply of decent accommodation.
    • Putting it in the constitution won't magically improve or urban planning.

    But...
    • Putting it in the constitution would likely result in antisocial tenants getting a carte-blanch
    • Putting it in the constitution would likely result in squatters doing whatever they want.
    • Putting it in the constitution would likely result in the collapse (and, thus, further reduction in the supply) of the rental market as landlords would not be able to repossess their own properties in the event of arrears.
    • Putting it in the constitution would likely result in the complete collapse (and, thus, a further reduction) of the housing market (and obvious impact on wider economy) as banks stop lending as they would no longer be able to repossess properties in mortgage arrears.

    But these are the stated desires of the socialist/anarchist ***** who have caused this crisis and and are now making these calls.


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    #23
    Fr_Dougal
    Registered Users Posts: 9,167 ✭✭✭Fr_Dougal


    There is currently no specific law on the books that refuses people a right to a home in Ireland.


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    #24
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Antares35 wrote: »
    The South African Constitution provides for the right to adequate housing.
    (Extract)

    26. Housing
    1. Everyone has the right to have access to adequate housing.
    seems to be working a treat for them over there

    article-2259075-0A255DE4000005DC-992_634x438.jpg


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    #25
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    Antares35 wrote: »
    The South African Constitution provides for the right to adequate housing.
    (Extract)

    26. Housing
    1. Everyone has the right to have access to adequate housing.

    2. The state must take reasonable legislative and other measures, within its available resources, to achieve the progressive realisation of this right.

    3. No one may be evicted from their home, or have their home demolished, without an order of court made after considering all the relevant circumstances. No legislation may permit arbitrary evictions.

    I don't think there should be a right to ownership of a property, but I think there should be a right to adequate shelter.

    Has this been tested in the courts because it seems overly vague in terms what the government must do it achieve it.


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    #26
    The_Brood
    Closed Accounts Posts: 838 ✭✭✭The_Brood


    Antares35 wrote: »
    The South African Constitution provides for the right to adequate housing.
    (Extract)

    26. Housing
    1. Everyone has the right to have access to adequate housing.

    2. The state must take reasonable legislative and other measures, within its available resources, to achieve the progressive realisation of this right.

    3. No one may be evicted from their home, or have their home demolished, without an order of court made after considering all the relevant circumstances. No legislation may permit arbitrary evictions.

    I don't think there should be a right to ownership of a property, but I think there should be a right to adequate shelter.

    See language like that is extremely easy to manipulate. Technically you have the "right to access to adequate housing" in Dublin too, there is no law preventing you. Just the tiny factors of life, salaries, and astronomically high, unworkable prices...


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    #27
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    Cina wrote:
    People won't even entertain the idea of an apartment, nope, need that back garden.

    Yet thousands of apartments have been built and are occupied.........


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    #28
    TuringBot47
    Registered Users Posts: 991 ✭✭✭TuringBot47


    Antares35 wrote: »
    The South African Constitution provides for the right to adequate housing.
    (Extract)

    Ah South Africa, the Utopian land of human rights.

    Maybe the OP needs to clarify here.
    The right to housing... any roof over your head, which includes B & B's, short term rentals etc, is one thing.

    The right to a home, which implies an apartment/flat/house for life / very long term periods is quite a different matter.
    What if the tenants are anti-social, they would have zero consequences to their actions, couldn't be evicted out/moved.

    So I'd be totally against "the right to a home" in the constitution.
    Certainly something to be worked towards as a goal, but not an enshrined right.


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    #29
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    amcalester wrote: »
    No, its nonsense from Sinn Fein as usual.

    And, lets not forget the SF have repeatedly reduced the LPT thereby reducing the funds available to local government to tackle homelessness while also repeatedly calling for more funding from central government.

    Just where do they thing those funds are going to come from?

    and used their powers on local authorities to block planning at every possible opportunity


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    #30
    _Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 18,478 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    We couldn’t do this.

    There would immediately be an avalanche of cases taken against the government by people who have failed to provide for themselves saying the state is breaching their right to a home by not providing one.


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    #31
    Tabnabs
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,694 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tabnabs


    No constitutional right should come at the expense of other citizens.

    Why should I have to pay for your "rights"?


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