"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 5 "The bells" - Spoilers post 2 forward

TerrorFirmer · 17-05-2019 11:20AM

Benioff and Weiss aren't just writers. They're also producers. They have an extreme level of control over the whole production that is fairly atypical. Usually a show this big would also have a expanded writing team, rather than just a writer, or two writers. Benioff and Weiss could still be primary writers, but the scripts would be improved, tightened, or expanded by the writing team. The show really needed this once book material ran out, though they did an OK job with S6.

Instead they just had a few guest writers pen certain episodes in isolation.

I don't know how you can say Breaking Bad had a garbage season when, the polar opposite to GOT S8 since E03, it was an overwhelmingly resounding hit with both critics and watchers.

Obviously everyone's entitled to not like, or like something regardless of the reception, but you can't change the actual facts or objectively state something is actually terrible when everything says otherwise.

No show is ever going to have a 100% approval rate but Breaking Bad's final season is close. Earlier seasons of Game of Thrones also came very close, specifically certain episodes like Hard Home, Battle of the Bastards, Winds of Winter, Rains of Castamere, and so on.

turbbo · 17-05-2019 11:32AM

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

I don't know how you can say Breaking Bad had a garbage season when, the polar opposite to GOT S8 since E03, it was an overwhelmingly resounding hit with both critics and watchers.

Depends on what critics and watchers you refer to. Walter White turned into McGyver in the final episode - who knew he wasn't just a chemistry wizard.

Most of the online reviews are totally unreliable at this stage - was looking up what are considered the best movies of all time on rotten tomatoes - Black Panther is the best movie of all time. - I know plenty of people that wouldn't agree with that.
It's a problem we have nowadays - Confirmation Bias - people off googling something they already believe. There are plenty of counter arguments but nobody wants to read something they don't agree with.

OneOfThem Stumbled · 17-05-2019 11:42AM

turbbo wrote: »

Mob mentality - doesn't equate to being correct.

When we're dealing with entertainment media, it generally (although not always) does. The only exception is when people are initially pissed off at something but it later grows on them.

turbbo wrote: »

Not sure the writing is the problem - I think it's the producers

The producers and writers are one and the same in this case. The director was a different (and quite talented) person.

turbbo wrote: »

This is where the idea of nicely packaged box set tv is failing us. There will be a return to Film I think - a clean beginning middle and end - envisaged from the start of production without sequels.

I like to describe this as the Lost syndrome - come up with a compelling intro and start production before having any idea of where you're going. You're being a bit naive about film though, plenty of films have been made and then subsequently turned into trilogies. Star Wars is a good example. Also most people liked the final seasons of BB and Sopranos, just saying.

leggo wrote: »

The plot was based around whether she’d carry on and be ‘No One’, which would end up in her becoming like The Hound, solely driven by vengeance, or whether she’d say “I’m Arya Stark and I’m going home.”

What's one more death? She's killed countless people, it is all she is. What's worse, there wasn't a character arc there; it's full circle - she started her story running for her life in King's Landing without any power to affect the devastation she was witnessing and she ends her story in exactly the same way.

But why not just have this conversation outside Winterfell? Why did the Hound and Arya travel together at all? Besides which, the plot doesn't make sense with the Hound. Way back in season 6 we saw that he had put his past of violence behind him. He wanted a quiet life. When that quiet life is rudely interrupted he joined Beric to fight for a greater cause against the Night King. Okay, so when that's over he suddenly feels the need to kill his brother? Well, kill him a second time, it was never made clear how alive Uncle Festor actually was at that point.

But by far the worst aspect of all this is the reason for it. Arya is there for reasons of tension. D&D specifically say this, that we need to see the devastation of KL from the viewpoint of someone we care about. The Hound is there for a much overhyped fight with his brother to be shoehorned in.

TerrorFirmer · 17-05-2019 11:47AM

I think a combination of user reviews on IMDB, Rotten Tomatoes, critical reviews, and broad reception on discussion platforms are good metrics, when all combined together. With all those in mind, Breaking Bad's final season was extremely well received across the board.

Take Black Panther. I agreed, critically totally over-rated to a baffling extent. However, user scores on IMDB are 7.3, and on Rotten Tomatoes, also 79% - I think they're fair and reflect general opinion that's also held on places like Boards, Reddit, Imgur, wherever. A decent movie but nothing special.

Compare Breaking Bad S5. It has 99% user review on RT, and allso a 9.9/10 average on IMDB for Felina, the last episode, with a season average of something like 9.2. That's broadly in line with general reaction in online discussion platforms.

That's not to say everyone loved it of course. The best movies have critics, the worst movies have fans, particularly in the digital age.

It's important to combine multiple metrics to get a broadly true picture. GOT S8 (since E03) has general weak critical reviews, mixed user reviews, and the ratings on RT and IMDB are the lowest in the franchise. That's not confirmation bias, it just it what it is.

For example, Avatar is the highest growing movie of all time, The Walking Dead at one point had the largest viewership; neither are considered brilliant despite this, but just looking at other metrics like critical reviews, user reviews, online reaction, tells you this.

turbbo · 17-05-2019 11:59AM

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

When we're dealing with entertainment media, it generally (although not always) does. The only exception is when people are initially pissed off at something but it later grows on them.

Opinions change over time consider it fashion. It's like a time test. Will GOT be considered great TV in 20 years time - I honestly don't know.

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

The producers and writers are one and the same in this case. The director was a different (and quite talented) person.

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0944947/fullcredits/producer

I'm spreading the blame across all of them(it's a team effort).
I think the core story and direction it has taken in the final season is fine - just not well executed. So I don't believe Weiss & Benioff are totally to blame for how this final season has turned out.

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

I like to describe this as the Lost syndrome - come up with a compelling intro and start production before having any idea of where you're going. You're being a bit naive about film though, plenty of films have been made and then subsequently turned into trilogies. Star Wars is a good example. Also most people liked the final seasons of BB and Sopranos, just saying.

I may not have been clear but I did specifically mean movies without sequels. As Hollywood is mainly ran by accountants nearly all mainstream movies have sequels and I would argue most of them are rubbish. Sequels are like brand loyalty - oh and can we throw in some merchandising as well you'd be well naive if you thought it didn't work that way.

turbbo · 17-05-2019 12:07PM

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

I think a combination of user reviews on IMDB, Rotten Tomatoes, critical reviews, and broad reception on discussion platforms are good metrics, when all combined together. With all those in mind, Breaking Bad's final season was extremely well received across the board.

Take Black Panther. I agreed, critically totally over-rated to a baffling extent. However, user scores on IMDB are 7.3, and on Rotten Tomatoes, also 79% - I think they're fair and reflect general opinion that's also held on places like Boards, Reddit, Imgur, wherever. A decent movie but nothing special.

Compare Breaking Bad S5. It has 99% user review on RT, and allso a 9.9/10 average on IMDB for Felina, the last episode, with a season average of something like 9.2. That's broadly in line with general reaction in online discussion platforms.

That's not to say everyone loved it of course. The best movies have critics, the worst movies have fans, particularly in the digital age.

It's important to combine multiple metrics to get a broadly true picture. GOT S8 (since E03) has general weak critical reviews, mixed user reviews, and the ratings on RT and IMDB are the lowest in the franchise. That's not confirmation bias, it just it what it is.

For example, Avatar is the highest growing movie of all time, The Walking Dead at one point had the largest viewership; neither are considered brilliant despite this, but just looking at other metrics like critical reviews, user reviews, online reaction, tells you this.

Anything online is driven by advertising unless you're paying to read it - or it's the BBC. Call me a cynic, but the metrics you mention IMDB(Amazon - now a streaming platform with it's own production) and RT(Fandango - American ticketing company that sells movie tickets) are about as trustworthy as Del Boy.

Penn · 17-05-2019 12:17PM

leggo wrote: »

Then why did they have ‘The Bells’ plotline at all? It’s the name of the episode like. We’re supposed to wonder if she’ll listen to Tyrion when the bells ring.

And we did wonder if she'd listen to Tyrion. But she didn't. Not out of making an informed or rational decision, but acting out of emotion, without logic. She had already agreed to cease the attack if the bells rung. Her decision on that had been made.

The bells plotline was to give a definitive point of showing that there was no reason to attack any further. Cersei's army had surrendered, she had been beat, Dany had won. The bells signified that. But Dany chose to attack the city regardless out of anger, fear and emotion, not logic or rationality. She did listen to Tyrion when she agreed to stop the attack if the bells rung. She ignored her own decision in that moment out of anger and madness.

leggo · 17-05-2019 12:24PM

You realise that we’re agreeing right? :pac:

I’m saying she opted not to listen to Tyrion because she went with her gut (and explaining the logic behind making that decision, she didn’t just stop thinking and the ‘Previously On’ went to pains to remind you of the things running through her head). You’re saying that she opted not to listen to Tyrion out of emotion. The difference is negligible.

Penn · 17-05-2019 12:27PM

leggo wrote: »

You realise that we’re agreeing right? :pac:

I’m saying she opted not to listen to Tyrion because she went with her gut (and explaining the logic behind making that decision, she didn’t just stop thinking and the ‘Previously On’ went to pains to remind you of the things running through her head). You’re saying that she opted not to listen to Tyrion out of emotion. The difference is negligible.

Ha, fair enough. I suppose it's just the difference between "her gut" and "emotion", as I think "her gut" would refer to more her gut instinct in making a decision, as opposed to acting out of emotion and not considering it a decision at all.

TerrorFirmer · 17-05-2019 12:35PM

A lot of the perception over E05 could easily change with the final episode. For all we know, despite the writers clearly wanting us to assume she went mad in the heat of the moment, given the writing trends this season she could be back to acting somewhat rational in the finale, and explaining her actions as a calculated decision rather than the fit of emotionally charged madness it's blatantly made out to be in the previous episode.

I mean has anyone seen the preview for E06? (spoilered in case people don't want to know any preview stuff).

She's back to having huge hordes of Dothraki and legions of Unsullied. It just doesn't make any sense, and I just don't trust E06 to follow on with logical consistency in other areas either

RickBlaine · 17-05-2019 12:51PM

Like a lot of people, I don’t mind the concept of Dany turning evil but I think it was definitely too rushed.

I just thought of something that would have been a much better stepping stone to her turning mad and killing innocents. Literally the last thing that happened before the battle of winterfell was Jon telling Dany about his parents. I thought it would have been great if there was a moment during the battle where Dany had an opportunity to save Jon but decided to let him die because he was a threat to her power. It then would have been even better if Dany killed Sam in an attempt to keep Jon’s secret from getting out. At least that would have shown us that Dany has progressed to murdering for her own goals.

As Jon’s reveal to Dany was rather clumsily tacked onto the end of episode 2, I thought Dany knowing that information was going to play a role in the battle. But it didn’t unfortunately.

This season, D+D have lacked any real innovation in their story telling. They just seemed to be concerned with getting characters from A to B to C in the fasted and least interesting way possible.

Foxtrol · 17-05-2019 12:55PM

Penn wrote: »

And we did wonder if she'd listen to Tyrion. But she didn't. Not out of making an informed or rational decision, but acting out of emotion, without logic. She had already agreed to cease the attack if the bells rung. Her decision on that had been made.

The bells plotline was to give a definitive point of showing that there was no reason to attack any further. Cersei's army had surrendered, she had been beat, Dany had won. The bells signified that. But Dany chose to attack the city regardless out of anger, fear and emotion, not logic or rationality. She did listen to Tyrion when she agreed to stop the attack if the bells rung. She ignored her own decision in that moment out of anger and madness.

When did this happen? I posted the link to the scene where Tyrion pleads this and firstly corrects him when he claims they are innocents and just stares at him when he repeatedly asks to stop at any bells. She clearly nods at Greyworm rather than Tyrion at the end of the scene.

TerrorFirmer · 17-05-2019 01:12PM

There's a really interesting edit someone made on Reddit which edits E04 and E05 together to make Rhaegal fall victim to Scorpions during the Battle of Kings Landing, prompting Daenaerys rage and immediate beeline for the Red Keep and Cersei. It's actually pretty cool.

Just mentioning it as a lot of people have discussed similar possibilities.

Can see it here.

Foxtrol · 17-05-2019 01:18PM

~Rebel~ wrote: »

The Tarly's are a great example of her change being unearned I think. It's an event from quite recently as far as the show goes, so a good indicator of where her head was at not long before this big turn.

She's there as a general and victor, after a particularly bloody battle, and then offers them clemency if they just swear fealty to her. Even Tarly Senior begs his son to do this, and live, but Dickon actively chooses to die instead, taking the decision out of Dany's hands entirely.

This would have been a great opportunity for the writers to increase her malevolence by burning him even after he had asked for mercy, but instead she gave him every chance to live if he wanted to.

The switch from this mindset, to slaughtering innocents on a massive scale is just too big. It's an absolute atrocity and war crime, and someone capable of reasonable thought (like she clearly was in many instances in seasons 7 and 8 prior to this) would simply never do it.

As I mentioned before, what she did is akin to going into a primary school and just wandering around shooting every child there. And not even as a sudden lash out, but doing it for 40 or so minutes of screen time (which obviously means much longer in in-world time). That's a level of pure insanity and madness and cruelty and pure unconscionable murder above and beyond anything ever hinted at before.

And in terms of "she lost a lot", how much does any one of us need to lose before we contemplate murdering a whole bunch of innocent, unrelated people? I'd argue this simply isn't even a place one's head goes. Revenge, certainly, but going out and horribly murdering a bunch of randoms is not a thing connected with experiencing great loss. It's just not a viable motivator.

We needed to see cruelty towards innocents on a small scale prior to this. Instead, what we saw directly prior to this was her attempting a cease-fire, and going off to battle for humanity.

I pretty much covered the main gist of this in my last response to you, that you seemed to ignore in favour or responding to this other post of mine.

You're caught up on the word innocents, which by correcting Tyrion Dany clearly implies that she doesn't believe the KL common folk are. Even if she did see them as innocents there isn't much evidence to me that caring about them has ever been a main driver of hers. If she could help innocent people she would, but a lot of times doing so also helped her to her main goal of the iron throne and if they got in the way of it they were always secondary. For every example of ‘caring for innocents’, like locking away her dragon, I can give you ones where the mere association to her ‘enemy’ was enough for her to presume guilt and and have them barbarically tortured or executed.

I don't agree with the school shooting comparison, as I don't believe her actions at KL were killing for killings sake, but if you're looking at the profile of a kid that might do it you'd look at one who was short tempered, vengeful, has a history of cruelty when other options were available to them, and who has repeatedly threatened to shoot up this school and other schools in the past. Dany fits the bill but you are one of the neighbours who get filmed by TV crews and say 'she was a lovely girl, I never thought she was capable of this'.

turbbo · 17-05-2019 01:24PM

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

There's a really interesting edit someone made on Reddit which edits E04 and E05 together to make Rhaegar fall victim to Scorpions during the Battle of Kings Landing, prompting Daenaerys rage and immediate beeline for the Red Keep and Cersei. It's actually pretty cool.

Just mentioning it as a lot of people have discussed similar possibilities.

Can see it here.

Rhaegar - wtf? She hated her brother also he died way back? Do you mean Rhaegal?

TerrorFirmer · 17-05-2019 01:26PM

Of course I did, who else could I possibly mean in the context!!

Foxtrol · 17-05-2019 01:27PM

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

Most people think the writing was garbage.

Seeing as you were the poster who tried to inject that ridiculous petition into the thread I'm not surprised at all by this type of echo chamber mindset.

Stop moaning ffs · 17-05-2019 01:28PM

It’s interesting. I found aryas change of heart and dropping her mission a little too abrupt more than Danys. But I’m fine with both. Just surprised people were ok with that one. I guess danys is far more dramatic and shocking in the outcome.

turbbo · 17-05-2019 01:30PM

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Of course I did, who else could I possibly mean in the context!!

I'm not a mind reader

turbbo · 17-05-2019 01:35PM

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

There's a really interesting edit someone made on Reddit which edits E04 and E05 together to make Rhaegal fall victim to Scorpions during the Battle of Kings Landing, prompting Daenaerys rage and immediate beeline for the Red Keep and Cersei. It's actually pretty cool.

Just mentioning it as a lot of people have discussed similar possibilities.

Can see it here.

That takes a lot of the drama out of it - and how would it play out for the final episode. I've a funny feeling the writers want us to hate Dany after this episode so that we're set going into the finale.

Foxtrol · 17-05-2019 01:37PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

It’s interesting. I found aryas change of heart and dropping her mission a little too abrupt more than Danys. But I’m fine with both. Just surprised people were ok with that one. I guess danys is far more dramatic and shocking in the outcome.

It was somewhat abrupt, but with all the rest of her revenge list she was taking a controlled risk with her life to take out someone who wasn't likely to die soon otherwise. This time the Hound pointed out to her that Cersei was basically guaranteed death whatever Arya did, but if she wanted to do it herself she'd basically be guaranteed to also die. The Hound was happily willing to accept that but he didn't want Arya to. They've shown that Arya does care about things outside of her list so it made sense to me.

Grayditch · 17-05-2019 01:39PM

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

There's a really interesting edit someone made on Reddit which edits E04 and E05 together to make Rhaegal fall victim to Scorpions during the Battle of Kings Landing, prompting Daenaerys rage and immediate beeline for the Red Keep and Cersei. It's actually pretty cool.

Just mentioning it as a lot of people have discussed similar possibilities.

Can see it here.

An improvement.

I could stand corrected in the end, but I doubt it.

OneOfThem Stumbled · 17-05-2019 01:51PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Seeing as you were the poster who tried to inject that ridiculous petition into the thread I'm not surprised at all by this type of echo chamber mindset.

It is literally in the news. It's been reported on RTE.

Also this thread is not an echo chamber. You, and other posters who love the writing of the current season, are evidence that it isn't an echo chamber. You are clearly out of step with what most viewers of the series feel, but you are entitled to your opinion.

By clearly, I mean using any metric, such as...

looking at critics' combined scores
looking at popular votes among the public
looking at forums/subreddits concerning the show
talking to people at the water cooler

The fact that that petition is likely to hit a million signatures before the day is out is just an amusing aside.

Either way the thing will be over next episode. I'll just check out the wiki to see if the spoilers were correct, and then look at decent parodies like the WTF series.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCP9xrxNODtAqJW65IR8tIjQ

That's some more injection, if you like.

TerrorFirmer · 17-05-2019 01:55PM

turbbo wrote: »

That takes a lot of the drama out of it - and how would it play out for the final episode. I've a funny feeling the writers want us to hate Dany after this episode so that we're set going into the finale.

It's more just a proof of concept that it all could've been written far better and with a great deal more logic with considerable ease.

I think for most people it's more the removal of the Iron Fleet's homing missles in E04 in favor of Rhaegal falling victim to the Scorpions during the KL battle in E05, adding a bit more immediate dimension to the sudden fit of madness.

The flying straight to the Red Keep edit also makes logical sense but realistically as you've alluded to she was always going to have to raze King's landing in the plot, regardless of why, how, or otherwise.

TerrorFirmer · 17-05-2019 02:01PM

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

You are clearly out of step with what most viewers of the series feel, but you are entitled to your opinion.

I would say in fairness that it's not 'most viewers' and is very much sort of split three ways.

Those who hate the way S8 has turned out; those that see some merit and enjoyment in it but think it's deeply and frustratingly flawed; and those that really enjoy it and either don't see flaws, or aren't overly critical of them.

That lines up pretty much with the review scores from critics and users as well as reaction online and offline, which is sort of around 6/10 since E04.

That seems fair to me. It's weak Game of Thrones but it's not terrible and if you take a step back and compare it to a lot of other popular TV shows, it's still incredibly solid entertainment.

I've a good few friends who watch it, and on average I'd say we all fit into that middle category of being frustrated because it should, and easily could, be so much better, but we don't think it's outright terrible, unwatchable, or whatever.

OneOfThem Stumbled · 17-05-2019 02:03PM

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

It's more just a proof of concept that it all could've been written far better and with a great deal more logic with considerable ease.

I think for most people it's more the removal of the Iron Fleet's homing missles in E04 in favor of Rhaegal falling victim to the Scorpions during the KL battle in E05, adding a bit more immediate dimension to the sudden fit of madness.

The flying straight to the Red Keep edit also makes logical sense but realistically as you've alluded to she was always going to have to raze King's landing in the plot, regardless of why, how, or otherwise.

I can't for the life of me understand why one-sided engagements are meant to be entertaining, particularly when they don't make sense.

The iron fleet had a cake walk against Dany in episode 4 and she has a cake walk against them in episode 5. I last saw this problem in the siege of Mereen when the besiegers were having no problem against Dany's forces one episode, and then totally annihilated without any resistance the next (it was much better than what was seen this season, and made more sense, but had the same sort of flavour to it)

Combining the two scenes really helps a huge amount, though there's still the problem of respawning Unsullied and Dothraki, which would have needed the fight against the Night King to not be so one-sided to still, realistically, be present.

turbbo · 17-05-2019 02:05PM

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

I would say in fairness that it's not 'most viewers' and is very much sort of split three ways.

Those who hate the way S8 has turned out; those that see some merit and enjoyment in it but think it's deeply and frustratingly flawed; and those that really enjoy it and either don't see flaws, or aren't overly critical of them.

That lines up pretty much with the review scores from critics and users as well as reaction online and offline, which is sort of around 6/10 since E04.

That seems fair to me. It's weak Game of Thrones but it's not terrible and if you take a step back and compare it to a lot of other popular TV shows, it's still incredibly solid entertainment.

I've a good few friends who watch it, and on average I'd say we all fit into that middle category of being frustrated because it should, and easily could, be so much better, but we don't think it's outright terrible, unwatchable, or whatever.

Very fair comment can't argue and won't.

J. Marston · 17-05-2019 02:07PM

That petition will actually hit a million signatures before the finale. Ridiculous.

Foxtrol · 17-05-2019 02:23PM

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

It is literally in the news. It's been reported on RTE.

Also this thread is not an echo chamber. You, and other posters who love the writing of the current season, are evidence that it isn't an echo chamber. You are clearly out of step with what most viewers of the series feel, but you are entitled to your opinion.

By clearly, I mean using any metric, such as...

looking at critics' combined scores
looking at popular votes among the public
looking at forums/subreddits concerning the show
talking to people at the water cooler

The fact that that petition is likely to hit a million signatures before the day is out is just an amusing aside.

Either way the thing will be over next episode. I'll just check out the wiki to see if the spoilers were correct, and then look at decent parodies like the WTF series.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCP9xrxNODtAqJW65IR8tIjQ

That's some more injection, if you like.

The echo chamber is whatever makes you feel that you are justified in saying 'Most people think the writing was garbage'. Just because some other people are shouting loudly about things that you also believe, it doesn't mean that most people are agreeing with you.

As TerrorFirmer pointed out, there is a broad spectrum of opinions on this episode and season. If you'd said most people have had issues with the writing at some point then I'd say you were correct but you came out with hyperbolic crap that really fits in well with the self entitlement of the petition.

Foxtrol · 17-05-2019 02:24PM

J. Marston wrote: »

That petition will actually hit a million signatures before the finale. Ridiculous.

And even if it didn't include people repeat signing it wouldn't even be 1% of people who watch the show

"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 5 "The bells" - Spoilers post 2 forward

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