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"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 5 "The bells" - Spoilers post 2 forward

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Comments

  • #782
    ardinn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,249 ✭✭✭ardinn


    None of you ever do archery? its hard enough with a stationary target never mind a flying object at some points about a mile away.

    If i have any gripe its how they managed to hit rhaegar or whatever his name is at all!
    images.jpg
    http://slaneyfishing.com




  • #783
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Tazzimus wrote: »
    Rhaegal :)

    I mentioned similar earlier, better way to off a dragon and kick off Dany's rage sesh.
    That or, as someone else suggested, killed by the NK in the battle for Winterfell.

    At least either of those way's people would be more accepting, I'd imagine.


    They all look the same to me

    #notracist :D


  • #784
    martingriff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,739 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    TerrorFirmer wrote: »
    Of course they're going to point out specific examples, we're talking about a current season and specific episodes.

    The whole point is that S8 has got far, far more instances of poor writing and repeat use of illogical/implausible instances than other seasons.

    Every episode since E03 is full of them, not just one or two in isolation (which as I've said, is quite normal for any work of fiction).

    No-one ever claimed that earlier seasons have no plot conveniences or implausible situations, just far less of them.

    On your second point, that's not really an excuse for the poor quality of writing.

    The narrative being created by D&D is inherently perfectly fine.

    Daenerys goes mad. Kings Landing is razed. The Night King is defeated at Winterfell. Varys turns against the Dragon Queen. And so on.

    These are all perfectly fine..... plot wise. The problem is how they're being arrived that and the script that's driving these narrative choices.

    A lot of people are making the mistake that people unhappy with the season just don't like the direction the narrative is going.

    It's absolutely not the narrative - very few people have an issue with the overall narrative which is a completely natural conclusion to S1-S7.

    It's the lazy, rushed, sloppy writing behind it.

    D&D also wrote most of S5 and S6 without GRRM and they're far better scripted, so there's really not really much excuse other than that they rushed the end so they could just move on from GOT.

    D&D had been offered more seasons and should have taken them instead they have rushed stuff to end because on there next big thing. The fight with the Night King only lasting 1 fight maybe showing some fighting at the wall or on the way. The fight between Cersi & Danny could have been 3 to 4 episodes at least each.

    I enjoyed this episode but the ending for Cersi and Jamie was awfull. Did they do the prophesy about Cersi in the show because if so they forgot it. Jamie deserved more then Euron. Arys cant be killed


  • #785
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,349 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    GreeBo wrote: »
    I guess you are referring to the wall of ice, rather than the wall of stone I'm talking about.

    Flames destroying an ice wall are acceptable, Ice melts, water turns to steam and explodes.

    Solid rocks on the other hand...well they melt you see, and we have already been shown that they melt in multiple previous scenes

    An 8,000 year ice wall around 200 meters tall and 90 meters deep reinforced by magic being taken down by one in minutes would require a decent amount of power.

    As far as melting stone, if you're referring to Harrenhal it was supposed to be better defended than KL, with much thicker walls.

    This really falls into the pedantic corner again


  • #786
    dsmythy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,583 ✭✭✭✭dsmythy


    ardinn wrote: »
    None of you ever do archery? its hard enough with a stationary target never mind a flying object at some points about a mile away.

    If i have any gripe its how they managed to hit rhaegar or whatever his name is at all!

    Even if they unleashed a barrage on him and someone fluked one shot in the head or neck it might have been accepted more.


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  • #787
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,518 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    An 8,000 year ice wall around 200 meters tall and 90 meters deep reinforced by magic being taken down by one in minutes would require a decent amount of power.

    As far as melting stone, if you're referring to Harrenhal it was supposed to be better defended than KL, with much thicker walls.

    This really falls into the pedantic corner again

    Doesnt matter how thick they were, the stone melted, didn't explode like he had been eating C4 the night before.

    Perhaps you just have lower standards than the rest of us "pedants".:rolleyes:


  • #788
    TerrorFirmer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,930 ✭✭✭✭TerrorFirmer


    martingriff wrote: »
    I enjoyed this episode but the ending for Cersi and Jamie was awfull. Did they do the prophesy about Cersi in the show because if so they forgot it. Jamie deserved more then Euron. Arys cant be killed

    I've already posted here why I thought Jaime and Cersei was a good ending for both. It does make sense, but people don't have to like it of course. But it was a realistic ending I thought.

    Thankfully Euron 'getting' him was irrelevant in the end - if Jaime had died at Euron's hand I would have been absolutely raging.


  • #789
    vetinari
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,058 ✭✭✭vetinari


    Christ, people complaining about stones exploding instead of melting is pure pedantry.
    There are much more valid reasons to complain about.
    If you're focused on that level of nitpicking, your haterism has reached a point of no return.

    I get it, it happened to me with Dexter. You get so soured by what is happening in the show that nothing the show can do will redeem it for you.


  • #790
    Stop moaning ffs
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    Tazzimus wrote: »
    I did, you didn't understand mine.

    If she seen the fleet and just ignored it, that's just stupidity. At the very least she should have kept an eye on them to see what they're about.
    Yes, she wasn't expecting them to have scorpions mounted on them, I don't have an issue with that part.
    It's that at her vantage point, she would have been able to see the bolt coming and evaded.

    I used sniper accuracy to describe how they managed to hit a moving target that high in the air, in succession, from something that itself had a moving base. The sea isn't level and steady, at the very least they could have let off a volley of bolts and that way three hitting would have made sense, not 3 one after the other like they were laser guided.

    It was sloppily done just to get rid of a dragon because two attacking KL wouldn't have even been a fight.

    I can see why it was done and don't really have an issue with it, just with how it was done. A giant crossbow on a boat should not be that accurate, even if you're looking in the wrong direction and don't see the ships.



    I have a hd tv and I didn’t see the bolts coming at her.

    You expect her to see

    Missiles she isn’t expecting and an attack she isn’t expecting
    You want her to pick them out At speed regardless of their own speed
    From a fleet she has or hasn’t seen

    You are really really nitpicking but irrationally into the bargain.

    They had what, 20 ships? They all fired at once.
    Any good msrksman knows you don’t aim for the target you aim for where it’s going to be. That based on your training and experience and knowing the weights and distances and variables involved in using the weapon.


    Waaaahhhh we never saw eurons fleet bein trained how could they have made those shots?!?!?!



    It’s just people like complaining and will bitch and moan no matter the feck what.

    No problem with a dragon flying in the sky / problem with how signtlines and physics works.

    Just laughable


  • #791
    vetinari
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,058 ✭✭✭vetinari


    TerrorFirmer wrote: »
    I think in isolation E05 is fine. I mean in relatively modern times, a flak battery could open up on a single bomber and not score a hit. It's not entirely implausible and the overwhelming power of the dragon tallies with the lore we've heard about dragons.

    Either, they could also have had is a few bolts landing, but failing to do any meaningful damage or make proper penetration of the dragon's scales (sort of like when Bronn scored a hit with an early model Scorpion at Kings Road). Probably would've went some way to striking a better balance.

    The real problem though is the utterly ridiculous precedent set in E04 in particular, and inconsistent portrayal of how powerful the dragons actually are. It makes a slight muddle of E05.


    I agree that the scorpions were far too accurate in E04. I'm glad that they dialed it back in E05. I'm willing after E05 to give them the benefit of the doubt for E04 (that Daenerys was taken by surprise). I mean ultimately don't people prefer what happened in E05. A dragon should be a complete overmatch for stationary scorpions.


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  • #792
    Stop moaning ffs
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    GreeBo wrote: »
    "Seriously" what?
    We know its a dragon....whats that got to do with anything?
    If dragonfire always had that impact it would be one thing, but it doesnt.
    Many times queen-loolah has been a couple of metres away from the flames without a hitch...sure even when they strafe the city there is very little damage when compared to *the most fortified walls in the city*, which explode!


    People are, rightfully, complaining about consistency within a world.
    Dragons are established...thats fine, exploding reinforced walls are not.



    You are absolutely watching the wrong show. Or you just like giving out.

    One of them offshoot books Martin wrote Dragons are almost spiritually tied to their rider and nobody else will be allowed on them. They act on the mood and reflect the mental state of their rider in battle. Sometimes past control.
    I’ll try find the page. Think it was the books on the history of the targaryens.

    Mean time. Carry on complaining :)


  • #793
    martingriff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,739 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    TerrorFirmer wrote: »
    I've already posted here why I thought Jaime and Cersei was a good ending for both. It does make sense, but people don't have to like it of course. But it was a realistic ending I thought.

    Thankfully Euron 'getting' him was irrelevant in the end - if Jaime had died at Euron's hand I would have been absolutely raging.
    I have no problem with them dying together that is fine. I do feel it does undo some of his redemption the way he was going back try and talk her down. Maybe it to show without power and just her and in love she could be somewhat good but to me it was flat.


  • #794
    Tazzimus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,944 ✭✭✭Tazzimus


    Stop moaning ffs wrote: »
    I have a hd tv and I didn’t see the bolts coming at her.

    You expect her to see

    Missiles she isn’t expecting and an attack she isn’t expecting
    You want her to pick them out At speed regardless of their own speed
    From a fleet she has or hasn’t seen

    You are really really nitpicking but irrationally into the bargain.

    They had what, 20 ships? They all fired at once.
    Any good msrksman knows you don’t aim for the target you aim for where it’s going to be. That based on your training and experience and knowing the weights and distances and variables involved in using the weapon.


    Waaaahhhh we never saw eurons fleet bein trained how could they have made those shots?!?!?!



    It’s just people like complaining and will bitch and moan no matter the feck what.

    No problem with a dragon flying in the sky / problem with how signtlines and physics works.

    Just laughable

    I don't know whether to laugh at this or facepalm...

    You'd be doing well to see the bolts when the camera was focused mainly on her and the dragons..
    I expect her to see 10+ ships from several hundred feet in the air, including Eurons Silence, which is gigantic and easily recognisable, and at least think "I wonder what they're at"
    When she was divebombing them, she seen those bolts easy enough to avoid them at much closer range.

    As for the marksmen comment, yes you always lead the target, and yes you should be aware of your surroundings and take it into account when firing. How do you take into account the fact you're not firing from a solid base, the sea will be rocking the boats, throwing the shots off. You can't compensate for that quickly enough for something that big as you don't know what way it's going to move you. Firing three pinpoint accurate shots, at that angle, at that distance, against a moving target, from a moving base, is practically impossible.
    If they had fired a volley and three hit him out of that, grand, believable.
    But 3 one after the other all on target, a target that would have been knocked off it's course a bit after getting hit by the first bolt or two? No..


  • #795
    Effects
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,741 ✭✭✭Effects


    Stop moaning ffs wrote: »
    I have a hd tv.

    It's 2019. Who doesn't have a HD tv?


  • #796
    TerrorFirmer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,930 ✭✭✭✭TerrorFirmer


    Interesting personal take on Jaime on Reddit.

    It's close to my own feelings on it. Cersei was his toxic addiction he could never break free from, but it gave him a happy ending in the end, because it was the only ending he wanted.
    As an alcoholic, Jamie's story is very relatable for me.

    Jamie spent several seasons becoming a loveable character. He had changed so much, only to end up right where he started. This type of thing makes a lot of sense to an addict.

    I didnt see this as a waste of his arc because his Cersei relapse made a lot of sense to me.

    It's a tragic end to a great character and I thought it was pretty poetic. It would have been nice to see him move on and embrace a new honorable life.

    He was so close and then he threw it away. Cant tell you how many times I've done this. So his arc really connected with me.


  • #797
    Stop moaning ffs
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    Tazzimus wrote: »
    I don't know whether to laugh at this or facepalm...

    You'd be doing well to see the bolts when the camera was focused mainly on her and the dragons..
    I expect her to see 10+ ships from several hundred feet in the air, including Eurons Silence, which is gigantic and easily recognisable, and at least think "I wonder what they're at"
    When she was divebombing them, she seen those bolts easy enough to avoid them at much closer range.

    As for the marksmen comment, yes you always lead the target, and yes you should be aware of your surroundings and take it into account when firing. How do you take into account the fact you're not firing from a solid base, the sea will be rocking the boats, throwing the shots off. You can't compensate for that quickly enough for something that big as you don't know what way it's going to move you. Firing three pinpoint accurate shots, at that angle, at that distance, against a moving target, from a moving base, is practically impossible.
    If they had fired a volley and three hit him out of that, grand, believable.
    But 3 one after the other all on target, a target that would have been knocked off it's course a bit after getting hit by the first bolt or two? No..


    She was expecting the bolts in blackwater bay. She clearly planned her attack from above. Probably for some time watching them.

    You’re very literally complaining about one thing but the most stupid thing possible. The accuracy of human eye. On a boat in the water. Against a dragon in flight and unaware there’s an attack incoming.

    Then contradicting your own point cos the dragon and it’s rider enabled a counter attack using the same surprise element in the next episode.

    Drogon washes his tail playfully in the sea as he’s attacking those ships. He and she both know they have this. They’ve been sitting up way out of sight watching the layout of that fleet and know what they’re doing.

    This is not that hard.
    You didn’t like it fine. But if it didn’t make sense to you, is on you. It made complete tactical sense.


  • #798
    Goldengirl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 18,182 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    GreeBo wrote: »
    "Seriously" what?
    We know its a dragon....whats that got to do with anything?
    If dragonfire always had that impact it would be one thing, but it doesnt.
    Many times queen-loolah has been a couple of metres away from the flames without a hitch...sure even when they strafe the city there is very little damage when compared to *the most fortified walls in the city*, which explode!


    People are, rightfully, complaining about consistency within a world.
    Dragons are established...thats fine, exploding reinforced walls are not.

    Look , Dragons are magic. End of.

    Drogon and Dany wove in and out and up and down so fast so those ballista guys couldn't move the thing quick enough.

    Dragonfire explodes EVERYTHING...except the Night King, cos he's magic too!
    Only FlyingNinja Arya could be his nemesis.

    The show has gradually been leading up to and mentioning Dany's ruthless streak .
    And what with the Targaryen madness gene, which let's face it, she must have from both sides, so not surprised Dany turned in the end , especially after all the pressure and grief of the last few episodes.

    Jon all but turned tail and ran, quivering lip and all. He was flailing around at Winterfell and completely ineffective , and this is the direction the producers are taking for a reason, IMO.

    Amazing entertaining feature length episode with true to form penultimate episode twists and killings..we loved it here!


  • #799
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,518 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Goldengirl wrote: »
    Look , Dragons are magic. End of.

    Drogon and Dany wove in and out and up and down so fast so those ballista guys couldn't move the thing quick enough.

    Dragonfire explodes EVERYTHING...except the Night King, cos he's magic too!
    Only FlyingNinja Arya could be his nemesis.
    Sorry but that's a pathetic answer. If they are so magic why do arrows kill them?
    GRRM built a world and these two numpties fecked it up in their bid to move on and feck up star wars.
    Stop moaning ffs wrote: »
    You are absolutely watching the wrong show. Or you just like giving out.

    One of them offshoot books Martin wrote Dragons are almost spiritually tied to their rider and nobody else will be allowed on them. They act on the mood and reflect the mental state of their rider in battle. Sometimes past control.
    I’ll try find the page. Think it was the books on the history of the targaryens.

    Mean time. Carry on complaining :)
    And i thought the last answer was pathetic!
    So now the audience are wrong not the producers?

    How come it was the right show while they followed the books then?

    They rushed it and ruined the world GRRM had created. A world where dialogue and plot and people and politics were the crux... not "magic dragons"


  • #800
    Tazzimus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,944 ✭✭✭Tazzimus


    Stop moaning ffs wrote: »
    She was expecting the bolts in blackwater bay. She clearly planned her attack from above. Probably for some time watching them.

    You’re very literally complaining about one thing but the most stupid thing possible. The accuracy of human eye. On a boat in the water. Against a dragon in flight and unaware there’s an attack incoming.

    Then contradicting your own point cos the dragon and it’s rider enabled a counter attack using the same surprise element in the next episode.

    Drogon washes his tail playfully in the sea as he’s attacking those ships. He and she both know they have this. They’ve been sitting up way out of sight watching the layout of that fleet and know what they’re doing.

    This is not that hard.
    You didn’t like it fine. But if it didn’t make sense to you, is on you. It made complete tactical sense.


    I meant when she dive-bombed them after Rhaegal being killed. Her attack in this episode was grand, and a dragon is a hell of a lot more maneuverable than the scorpions, which she demonstrated.


    Yes I am complaining about that, and how it was done. How hard is that to comprehend? They basically should not have been able to hit the dragon with three bolts one after the other like they were ****ing homing missiles, given the conditions of taking the shots.


    Like I said already, if they fired a volley off and 2 or 3 hit him, killing him, yeah fair enough, that's plausible.
    But 3 perfect shots one after the other on a moving ship against a moving target? Get t'****.


    The planned surprise attack, however hard that is to believe given her vantage point, makes tactical sense. How they did it, does not at all.





    Scorpions/Ballista's were not the sniper rifle of the time, as much as you seem to think they are.


  • #801
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,349 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Tazzimus wrote: »
    I meant when she dive-bombed them after Rhaegal being killed. Her attack in this episode was grand, and a dragon is a hell of a lot more maneuverable than the scorpions, which she demonstrated.

    Yes I am complaining about that, and how it was done. How hard is that to comprehend? They basically should not have been able to hit the dragon with three bolts one after the other like they were ****ing homing missiles, given the conditions of taking the shots.

    Like I said already, if they fired a volley off and 2 or 3 hit him, killing him, yeah fair enough, that's plausible.
    But 3 perfect shots one after the other on a moving ship against a moving target? Get t'****.

    The planned surprise attack, however hard that is to believe given her vantage point, makes tactical sense. How they did it, does not at all.

    Scorpions/Ballista's were not the sniper rifle of the time, as much as you seem to think they are.

    You're continuing to complain about something pedantic, especially given how many other improbably activities happen on the show. Given how nearly all of the camera work is a close up of the two dragons, I'm not sure how you can be so certain that every shot fired from the boats hit him, with the large distance meaning any small deviation in angle wouldn't be captured in that small shot and it is pretty unlikely that they decided not to have all the boats firing until Dany got in closer.

    Look, if not seeing more arrows in the screen ruined the episode, season, or whole bloody show for you then I feel bad, but for many of us we can find basic explanations for it, even if many, including myself, believe it could have been written better.


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  • #802
    FatherTed
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,684 ✭✭✭FatherTed


    Glad they finally found Shergar.


  • #803
    RickBlaine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,043 ✭✭✭RickBlaine


    That clip of Kit Harrington calling the finale disappointing is so bizarre. It is like something from a Ricky Gervais show, like Extras.


  • #804
    Stop moaning ffs
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    Tazzimus wrote: »
    I meant when she dive-bombed them after Rhaegal being killed. Her attack in this episode was grand, and a dragon is a hell of a lot more maneuverable than the scorpions, which she demonstrated.


    Yes I am complaining about that, and how it was done. How hard is that to comprehend? They basically should not have been able to hit the dragon with three bolts one after the other like they were ****ing homing missiles, given the conditions of taking the shots.


    Like I said already, if they fired a volley off and 2 or 3 hit him, killing him, yeah fair enough, that's plausible.
    But 3 perfect shots one after the other on a moving ship against a moving target? Get t'****.


    The planned surprise attack, however hard that is to believe given her vantage point, makes tactical sense. How they did it, does not at all.





    Scorpions/Ballista's were not the sniper rifle of the time, as much as you seem to think they are.



    You’re making an idiot of yourself.

    By all means. Continue.


  • #805
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    RickBlaine wrote: »
    That clip of Kit Harrington calling the finale disappointing is so bizarre. It is like something from a Ricky Gervais show, like Extras.

    Disappointing because he didn't end up on the throne? Disappointing because Jon gets cooked?

    ...or just disappointing in general...

    Hmmmmmm...

    Tbh, I'm looking forward to it finishing.


  • #806
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,132 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    vetinari wrote: »
    Christ, people complaining about stones exploding instead of melting is pure pedantry.
    There are much more valid reasons to complain about.
    If you're focused on that level of nitpicking, your haterism has reached a point of no return.

    I get it, it happened to me with Dexter. You get so soured by what is happening in the show that nothing the show can do will redeem it for you.

    Haterism?! What are you? A Taylor Swift groupie?


  • #807
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,132 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Disappointing because he didn't end up on the throne? Disappointing because Jon gets cooked?

    ...or just disappointing in general...

    Hmmmmmm...

    Tbh, I'm looking forward to it finishing.
    Yeah, there is a sense of let's get it over and done with.


  • #808
    Stop moaning ffs
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    is_that_so wrote: »
    Haterism?! What are you? A Taylor Swift groupie?

    ^^^ when their argument gets taken apart with sensible rationale thinking

    And they come back at you with this.


  • #809
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,132 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Stop moaning ffs wrote: »
    ^^^ when their argument gets taken apart with sensible rationale thinking

    And they come back at you with this.

    It's rational BTW and this is far from rational! Someone needs to leave the internet. Go on, off to bed with you and don't forget to brush your teeth.


  • #810
    osarusan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,009 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Disappointing because he didn't end up on the throne? Disappointing because Jon gets cooked?

    ...or just disappointing in general...

    Hmmmmmm...

    Tbh, I'm looking forward to it finishing.


    Maybe he thought it is disappointing because he felt people watching would end up with attitudes like yours (and mine).

    Whatever about the viewers, for the actors to invest 10 years of their lives in this, to play great characters with depth, and know you are part of something that really is special, only to see it become so shallow at the end, must be very frustrating.


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  • #811
    TerrorFirmer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,930 ✭✭✭✭TerrorFirmer


    RickBlaine wrote: »
    That clip of Kit Harrington calling the finale disappointing is so bizarre. It is like something from a Ricky Gervais show, like Extras.

    And that clip of Peter Dinklage...I'm not sure if he's just having a laugh, or genuinely is cheekily voicing discontent.

    I can understand why Peter Dinklage and Conleth Hill would especially be so disappointed once they departed from the books and both were relegated to Beavis and Butthead.

    Most characters were somewhat neglected or reduced to shadows of their former selves, but at least the main cast continued to enjoy decent screen time.

    Those guys went from bring front and centre - and the cleverest men on the show - to simple background characters who contribute almost nothing.


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