"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 5 "The bells" - Spoilers post 2 forward

how.gareth · 15-05-2019 01:43PM

But didn’t dany and drogon manage to evade all the scorpions on the board the first time around when reagal was killed and she flew straight at them so it wasn’t a total surprise they managed it a second time

Foxtrol · 15-05-2019 01:46PM

turbbo wrote: »

Yeah the Dany storyline is rock solid - i've no gripes with it. The dragon BS is what is annoying because it could have been staged more - and Euron knocking one down in the previous episode wasn't convincing when they follow with another one destroying everything. It just wasn't up to the usual standard for the show - rushed.

I'm on the fence about it, if you think in the real world, would it be easier for someone with an anti-aircraft missile to take out a plane with a pilot that is ready and expecting attack while in enemy territory or when their guard is down because they're in a safe area after a long flight and about to land at their home base, especially when you might be damaged in a way to limit your maneuverability?

The fact that they didn't see the ships is slightly harder to believe and taking out the dragon was obviously to help the plot, impacting Dany's mental state, taking Jon out of the air, making it only one dragon attacking KL. Since season 1 the show is filled with ridiculous chance encounters by characters across 2 vast continents in order to move along the plot, so I'm not going to suddenly start getting pedantic over that sort of thing.

Stop moaning ffs · 15-05-2019 01:52PM

Just jumping in to say this. something that hasn’t been said once.

Dany has no reason whatsoever in the world to expect an attack from a ballista on a ship. Not one. Even if or especially if she saw the fleet. We hadn’t seen that before cos it hadn’t been done before. The fleet if she did see it wouldn’t have been a worry for her. She has two dragons. And no reason to expect any kind of resistance from them at all.

She dealt with one ballista in the previous season. And Drogon dealt with it and destroyed it and got a tickle from it but no damage.

The endless obsession with nit picking this season to such a degree that people aren’t even thinking with rational common sense, Christ alive folks,
Settle down.

Tazzimus · 15-05-2019 02:15PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Just jumping in to say this. something that hasn’t been said once.

Dany has no reason whatsoever in the world to expect an attack from a ballista on a ship. Not one. Even if or especially if she saw the fleet. We hadn’t seen that before cos it hadn’t been done before. The fleet if she did see it wouldn’t have been a worry for her. She has two dragons. And no reason to expect any kind of resistance from them at all.

She dealt with one ballista in the previous season. And Drogon dealt with it and destroyed it and got a tickle from it but no damage.

The endless obsession with nit picking this season to such a degree that people aren’t even thinking with rational common sense, Christ alive folks,
Settle down.

The issue is more the sniper accuracy of the scorpions and the fact she never noticed the ships from her vantage point high in the sky. She would have had a view of several miles in every direction, more than enough to see them hiding behind a rock.
If she had spotted them, she would have been alert to them and plenty of time to dodge the bolts from Euron Sparrow.
There's also the fact that 3 successive shots hit Rhaegal from the prow of a ship, on water, not the most solid of firing platforms.

Penn · 15-05-2019 02:20PM

Tazzimus wrote: »

The issue is more the sniper accuracy of the scorpions and the fact she never noticed the ships from her vantage point high in the sky. She would have had a view of several miles in every direction, more than enough to see them hiding behind a rock.
If she had spotted them, she would have been alert to them and plenty of time to dodge the bolts from Euron Sparrow.
There's also the fact that 3 successive shots hit Rhaegal from the prow of a ship, on water, not the most solid of firing platforms.

In fairness though, there have often been very convenient things like that in the show. I remember the guy from the Brotherhood who shot an arrow into the air and could talk to Hotpie and timed it exactly so the arrow would hit the ground right when he finished talking and right where Hotpie was standing. I'm sure there are likely other examples but sometimes these things will happen both for sake of convenience and drama.

Stop moaning ffs · 15-05-2019 02:22PM

Tazzimus wrote: »

The issue is more the sniper accuracy of the scorpions and the fact she never noticed the ships from her vantage point high in the sky. She would have had a view of several miles in every direction, more than enough to see them hiding behind a rock.
If she had spotted them, she would have been alert to them and plenty of time to dodge the bolts from Euron Sparrow.
There's also the fact that 3 successive shots hit Rhaegal from the prow of a ship, on water, not the most solid of firing platforms.

Yeah you didn’t read my post.

And ‘sniper accuracy’ really really isn’t the issue.

She didn’t know there would be snipers. You can’t plan for snipers.
It’s kind of the whole idea behind snipers.

Grayditch · 15-05-2019 02:28PM

I love how offended people are getting because people are holding the show to a standard that IT set and are disappointed and complaining about it. It's only a show? It's only a thread!

NuMarvel · 15-05-2019 02:31PM

how.gareth wrote: »

But didn’t dany and drogon manage to evade all the scorpions on the board the first time around when reagal was killed and she flew straight at them so it wasn’t a total surprise they managed it a second time

The second time around there was around 5 times as many ships though, plus all the scorpions on the walls of King's Landing as well. Even accounting for the element of surprise on Dany's side, it's understandable that people wonder how not a single one of them managed to get even a scratch on Drogon.

TerrorFirmer · 15-05-2019 02:41PM

I think in isolation E05 is fine. I mean in relatively modern times, a flak battery could open up on a single bomber and not score a hit. It's not entirely implausible and the overwhelming power of the dragon tallies with the lore we've heard about dragons.

Either, they could also have had is a few bolts landing, but failing to do any meaningful damage or make proper penetration of the dragon's scales (sort of like when Bronn scored a hit with an early model Scorpion at Kings Road). Probably would've went some way to striking a better balance.

The real problem though is the utterly ridiculous precedent set in E04 in particular, and inconsistent portrayal of how powerful the dragons actually are. It makes a slight muddle of E05.

2ndcoming · 15-05-2019 02:42PM

To use the show's own most used line of the past two seasons:

It doesn't matter now.

Stop moaning ffs · 15-05-2019 02:44PM

NuMarvel wrote: »

The second time around there was around 5 times as many ships though, plus all the scorpions on the walls of King's Landing as well. Even accounting for the element of surprise on Dany's side, it's understandable that people wonder how not a single one of them managed to get even a scratch on Drogon.

This is a really simple one.
Look again at the ones on the ship but especially the ones on the walls.
No capability to lift above about 65 degrees and the platforms on the walls were all built to attack pointing outwards. There’s only a small lip where they’d be hanging off outside the wall if they managed to turn it in towards the city.

Foxtrol · 15-05-2019 02:51PM

Grayditch wrote: »

I love how offended people are getting because people are holding the show to a standard that IT set and hare disappointed and complaining about it. It's only a show? It's only a thread!

What standard is this that IT set?

The standard where they continuously have characters coincidentally run into each other throughout the show to drive many aspects of the plot and now some fans are moaning when it happens in this episode when they dont like it?
The standard where characters rarely in life or death get what they 'deserve' and now fans are moaning when it happens in this episode when they dont like it?
The standard where characters repeatedly show unnatural levels marksmanship in one off situations but now fans are moaning when it happens in this season when they dont like it?
The standard where there isn't a full season of build up focused directly at characters making turns but now fans are moaning when it happens in this season when they dont like it?
The standard where characters regularly survive scenes where it is very implausible that they aren't severely injured or killed but now fans are moaning when it happens in this season when they dont like it?

I'm not sure what it is, but I'm seeing this repeated more and more in the likes of Marvel and Star Wars threads, where fans act like the thing they don't like in a specific movie is totally new to the series. Fine if you don't like what they did or that this instance didn't land well for you but don't pretend it wasn't there before.

Grayditch · 15-05-2019 03:01PM

The standard of writing... It's a noticeable drop between the creator and the tv guys. I know what I prefer.

TerrorFirmer · 15-05-2019 03:13PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

I'm not sure what it is, but I'm seeing this repeated more and more in the likes of Marvel and Star Wars threads, where fans act like the thing they don't like in a specific movie is totally new to the series. Fine if you don't like what they did or that this instance didn't land well for you but don't pretend it wasn't there before.

No-one is 'pretending' the show never had implausible situations or illogical narrative conveniences.

The difference is they happened in earlier seasons, but S7 and particularly S8 are rampant with them.

There isn't a film or TV production in existence that doesn't rely on some plot convenience but these things come in degrees.

It's daft to suggest that the problem is with audiences irrationally looking to find fault with S8 (Not sure why there's a global conspiracy against this season alone...)

GreeBo · 15-05-2019 03:17PM

NuMarvel wrote: »

Heated air expands, so if Drogon's flame is hot enough, it could cause the air in front of it to expand rapidly and generate sufficient force to knock down walls.

Sure it expands, but not with explosive force, in any case the force follows the path of least resistance, which is not 3M of stone wall.

Stop moaning ffs · 15-05-2019 03:30PM

GreeBo wrote: »

Sure it expands, but not with explosive force, in any case the force follows the path of least resistance, which is not 3M of stone wall.

We’re really complaining about thermal forces impact and physics...

Lads. There’s two tonnes of muscle teeth and fire / a dragon, flying through the air. A dragon.

Seriously

Tazzimus · 15-05-2019 03:37PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Yeah you didn’t read my post.

And ‘sniper accuracy’ really really isn’t the issue.

She didn’t know there would be snipers. You can’t plan for snipers.
It’s kind of the whole idea behind snipers.

I did, you didn't understand mine.

If she seen the fleet and just ignored it, that's just stupidity. At the very least she should have kept an eye on them to see what they're about.
Yes, she wasn't expecting them to have scorpions mounted on them, I don't have an issue with that part.
It's that at her vantage point, she would have been able to see the bolt coming and evaded.

I used sniper accuracy to describe how they managed to hit a moving target that high in the air, in succession, from something that itself had a moving base. The sea isn't level and steady, at the very least they could have let off a volley of bolts and that way three hitting would have made sense, not 3 one after the other like they were laser guided.

It was sloppily done just to get rid of a dragon because two attacking KL wouldn't have even been a fight.

I can see why it was done and don't really have an issue with it, just with how it was done. A giant crossbow on a boat should not be that accurate, even if you're looking in the wrong direction and don't see the ships.

Foxtrol · 15-05-2019 03:39PM

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

No-one is 'pretending' the show never had implausible situations or illogical narrative conveniences.

The difference is they happened in earlier seasons, but S7 and particularly S8 are rampant with them.

There isn't a film or TV production in existence that doesn't rely on some plot convenience but these things come in degrees.

It's daft to suggest that the problem is with audiences irrationally looking to find fault with S8 (Not sure why there's a global conspiracy against this season alone...)

Where have I suggested a global conspiracy?

Read back through the thread (and your own posts), there are plenty of posters making the exact claims that I highlighted. They aren't complaining about the number of instances, they are highlight specific situations and can be countered with several similar throughout the show.

The writing hasn't been as good as the earlier seasons but as GRRM knows himself, it is much easier expand a narrative than it is to contract it to a finish.

Stop moaning ffs · 15-05-2019 03:40PM

Also. If Dany did see the fleet. She would naturally assume it was Yara leading the iron fleet into her waters at dragonstone. It was an iron islands fleet under their sigil on the sails.

They were all massing forces before going to kings landing.

So she had no reason to expect attack from a ship, why would she? And if she did see the fleet, it’s a fleet that belongs to someone that just pledged allegiance to her. In Yara.

J. Marston · 15-05-2019 03:43PM

One of the first posts in this thread is me pondering how Drogon was so adept at dodging the Iron Fleet and the defences on the walls of King's Landing and I thought twice about posting it because I felt I was being too nit-picky.

But arguing the rotational capability of ballistae and the relative force of dragonfire to stone is another level, lads!

GreeBo · 15-05-2019 03:44PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

We’re really complaining about thermal forces impact and physics...

Lads. There’s two tonnes of muscle teeth and fire / a dragon, flying through the air. A dragon.

Seriously

"Seriously" what?
We know its a dragon....whats that got to do with anything?
If dragonfire always had that impact it would be one thing, but it doesnt.
Many times queen-loolah has been a couple of metres away from the flames without a hitch...sure even when they strafe the city there is very little damage when compared to *the most fortified walls in the city*, which explode!

People are, rightfully, complaining about consistency within a world.
Dragons are established...thats fine, exploding reinforced walls are not.

NuMarvel · 15-05-2019 03:45PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

This is a really simple one.
Look again at the ones on the ship but especially the ones on the walls.
No capability to lift above about 65 degrees and the platforms on the walls were all built to attack pointing outwards. There’s only a small lip where they’d be hanging off outside the wall if they managed to turn it in towards the city.

That sounds plausible. And anyone who designed something like that deserves to have a mountain crush them!

(See what I did there?

)

nix · 15-05-2019 03:51PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Also. If Dany did see the fleet. She would naturally assume it was Yara leading the iron fleet into her waters at dragonstone. It was an iron islands fleet under their sigil on the sails.

They were all massing forces before going to kings landing.

So she had no reason to expect attack from a ship, why would she? And if she did see the fleet, it’s a fleet that belongs to someone that just pledged allegiance to her. In Yara.

Yara's fleet isnt that big, and Yara's in the iron islands holding it down, it would take aaaages to sail from The Iron islands to Dragonstone. She would also send a raven if she was going to do something like that, and kings landing isnt far from Dragonstone so you would want to be a complete tool to think its Yara and not Euron :rolleyes:

TerrorFirmer · 15-05-2019 04:08PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

They aren't complaining about the number of instances, they are highlight specific situations and can be countered with several similar throughout the show.

The writing hasn't been as good as the earlier seasons but as GRRM knows himself, it is much easier expand a narrative than it is to contract it to a finish.

Of course they're going to point out specific examples, we're talking about a current season and specific episodes.

The whole point is that S8 has got far, far more instances of poor writing and repeat use of illogical/implausible instances than other seasons.

Every episode since E03 is full of them, not just one or two in isolation (which as I've said, is quite normal for any work of fiction).

No-one ever claimed that earlier seasons have no plot conveniences or implausible situations, just far less of them.

On your second point, that's not really an excuse for the poor quality of writing.

The narrative being created by D&D is inherently perfectly fine.

Daenerys goes mad. Kings Landing is razed. The Night King is defeated at Winterfell. Varys turns against the Dragon Queen. And so on.

These are all perfectly fine..... plot wise. The problem is how they're being arrived that and the script that's driving these narrative choices.

A lot of people are making the mistake that people unhappy with the season just don't like the direction the narrative is going.

It's absolutely not the narrative - very few people have an issue with the overall narrative which is a completely natural conclusion to S1-S7.

It's the lazy, rushed, sloppy writing behind it.

D&D also wrote most of S5 and S6 without GRRM and they're far better scripted, so there's really not really much excuse other than that they rushed the end so they could just move on from GOT.

Foxtrol · 15-05-2019 04:10PM

GreeBo wrote: »

"Seriously" what?
We know its a dragon....whats that got to do with anything?
If dragonfire always had that impact it would be one thing, but it doesnt.
Many times queen-loolah has been a couple of metres away from the flames without a hitch...sure even when they strafe the city there is very little damage when compared to *the most fortified walls in the city*, which explode!

People are, rightfully, complaining about consistency within a world.
Dragons are established...thats fine, exploding reinforced walls are not.

Think you're a season late with your complaints, we saw a dragon take down 'The Wall', which was quite a bit larger and more reinforced than what exploded in the last episode.

Animals can run, fly, swim at different speeds, it isn't crazy to think a dragon could control the temperature of it's flames in a given situation.

GreeBo · 15-05-2019 04:15PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Think you're a season late with your complaints, we saw a dragon take down 'The Wall', which was quite a bit larger and more reinforced than what exploded in the last episode.

Animals can run, fly, swim at different speeds, it isn't crazy to think a dragon could control the temperature of it's flames in a given situation.

I guess you are referring to the wall of ice, rather than the wall of stone I'm talking about.

Flames destroying an ice wall are acceptable, Ice melts, water turns to steam and explodes.

Solid rocks on the other hand...well they melt you see, and we have already been shown that they melt in multiple previous scenes

15-05-2019 04:17PM

The thing about Drogon being killed because two dragons wouldn't have been a fair fight...

I would have much preferred if BOTH dragons made it to Kings Landing, most things happen as they did, except there's about 3 scorpions left.

Get to the Angelus bit :pac: Cersei knows it's over, Dany knows it's over, Drogon is chilling on a wall....

Cersei breaks the silence
"Take that dragon"

Drogon killed

Dany goes batsh*t

Episode carries on.

turbbo · 15-05-2019 04:19PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

We’re really complaining about thermal forces impact and physics...

Lads. There’s two tonnes of muscle teeth and fire / a dragon, flying through the air. A dragon.

Seriously

Ahh but was it an African or European dragon?

Foxtrol · 15-05-2019 04:21PM

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Of course they're going to point out specific examples, we're talking about a current season and specific episodes.

The whole point is that S8 has got far, far more instances of poor writing and repeat use of illogical/implausible instances than other seasons.

Every episode since E03 is full of them, not just one or two in isolation (which as I've said, is quite normal for any work of fiction).

No-one ever claimed that earlier seasons have no plot conveniences or implausible situations, just far less of them.

On your second point, that's not really an excuse for the poor quality of writing.

The narrative being created by D&D is inherently perfectly fine.

Daenerys goes mad. Kings Landing is razed. The Night King is defeated at Winterfell. Varys turns against the Dragon Queen. And so on.

These are all perfectly fine..... plot wise. The problem is how they're being arrived that and the script that's driving these narrative choices.

A lot of people are making the mistake that people unhappy with the season just don't like the direction the narrative is going.

It's absolutely not the narrative - very few people have an issue with the overall narrative which is a completely natural conclusion to S1-S7.

It's the lazy, rushed, sloppy writing behind it.

D&D also wrote most of S5 and S6 without GRRM and they're far better scripted, so there's really not really much excuse other than that they rushed the end so they could just move on from GOT.

Some of your complaints there are valid and people have the right to not like the story D&D put together, however many are trying to justify not liking how things have gone based on being incredibly pedantic about things here that they let repeatedly slide before or claiming characters are suddenly acting against how they were written over previous seasons while ignoring everything that disagrees with how they feel.

Tazzimus · 15-05-2019 04:22PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The thing about Drogon being killed because two dragons wouldn't have been a fair fight...

I would have much preferred if BOTH dragons made it to Kings Landing, most things happen as they did, except there's about 3 scorpions left.

Get to the Angelus bit :pac: Cersei knows it's over, Dany knows it's over, Drogon is chilling on a wall....

Cersei breaks the silence
"Take that dragon"

Drogon killed

Dany goes batsh*t

Episode carries on.

Rhaegal

I mentioned similar earlier, better way to off a dragon and kick off Dany's rage sesh.
That or, as someone else suggested, killed by the NK in the battle for Winterfell.

At least either of those way's people would be more accepting, I'd imagine.

"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 5 "The bells" - Spoilers post 2 forward

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