"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 5 "The bells" - Spoilers post 2 forward

Essien · 14-05-2019 08:14AM

angel eyes 2012 wrote: »

Does anyone know what the significance of Varys was with the letter and the child at the start of the episode. Who was he trying to inform and did he not burn the letter before he was taken away?

I'm not reading anything into that at all.

At this stage I'd just assume it's the writers way of literally spelling out that he is a traitor.

I think it's redundant anyway, the entire north probably knows by now.

GreeBo · 14-05-2019 08:18AM

Who needs dialogue and a plot when you have dragons and fire eh?

When I think back to the weeks of scheming between Olenna, Varys, Littlefinger, Tywin, Tyrion and compare it to this Michael Bay "pew, pew"-fest it really is disappointing how it has changed as a show.
Feels much more dumbed down and very much rushed to completion, at the expense of everything bar expense itself.

Tzardine · 14-05-2019 08:22AM

angel eyes 2012 wrote: »

Does anyone know what the significance of Varys was with the letter and the child at the start of the episode. Who was he trying to inform and did he not burn the letter before he was taken away?

I think it is just another piece of the story that was a dead end.

Dickerty · 14-05-2019 08:22AM

irishfeen wrote: »

So as Jon is a Targaryen can he not be killed with fire?

That would be an odd trait to apply to all Targaryens just because of their bloodline? They are human after all. No other humans have special powers, unless you count wargs?

I'm trying to rationalise a lot of what happened in that episode, but it's hard.

Hound and Mountain die at each other hands, as it should be.
Jamie and Cersei die in each other arms, which is fine - dead is dead. She gave up everything for power, and she died powerless. Fine.
Varys died trying to do the right thing, to poison the queen and probably sending messages back to Sansa to ensure Dani doesn't catch them by surprise. He stood by his principles and died for them.
Dani has seen two of her children, and her two closest friends die. The man she thought loved her probably just loves her as a queen (and aunt!). The only people loyal to her are murders and barbarians. So she had nothing left to be positive for. She'll happily rule over ash and dust.

The Euron and Jamie meeting and fight irritated me. Too convenient and pointless. Jamie was going to die with Cersei anyway. Just let Euron due on his ship (like a true Ironborne) instead...

chopperbyrne · 14-05-2019 08:26AM

Not arsed reading through the whole thread, but the single take camera following Arya's frantic escape was brilliant.

Think the last time they used a single take like that was during the Battle of Castle Black.

Hannibal_Smith · 14-05-2019 08:33AM

I was full sure Cersei had something else. When Qyburn picked up the WWs hand last season I thought he was going to make his own army of them or something

I loved how they switched everything...waiting for the enemy with a sense of not knowing what to expect.. Exactly how the good guys waited for the bad guys at Winter fell.. All of a sudden the good guys look like the enemy. Ayra trying to battle to kill Cersei just like Jon Snow battled to get to the night king and failing.

Cersei was right not to offer any allegiance to that fruit cake.

I hoped for a better death for her.. But I suppose with her being pregnant they couldn't really be too vicious with her?

Mousewar · 14-05-2019 08:36AM

I think that episode was a vast improvement on the last two and for one particular reason. This is the ending they've been working towards. This is what all the rushing and careless plot manipulation has been for. How they got here over the last two seasons was terrible and frankly unforgivable but at least now they're here, they were able to do this part properly at least.
Having said that there were still flaws:

1- Tyrion continues to be a moron. The writers clearly don't know what to do with him or what his actual point is. In the absence of any other plan, they have tried to make him Dany's conscience, to stem her bloodlust. If he had achieved that, then perhaps we could say he had a point but he failed in that as he has failed in pretty much everything since he fled Westeros.

2- Still too rushed. I buy Dany's character arc. I think it makes sense to the story and to her personality. The moment when she roasted alive Sam's father and brother it was clear she was not the hero. As Sam said, Jon would never have done that. However, in the context of an 8 season series it felt too hurried. Her descent into madness could have lasted a whole 10 episode season.

3- I kept wondering how Dany and Drogon would counter the ballistas that so effortlessly killed rhaegar last week. Dragon armour? More dragons? No, she just sort of flew better or something. Last week she was a sitting duck in front of these things, this week she can fly amidst dozens of them and remain untouched. Bit weird.

4- Did not like how The Mountain appeared underneath the armour. Looked like Uncle Fester.

Ultimately, these flaws are nowhere near as damaging as the ones in the last two episodes where characters did things you'd never imagine they could do. Everything felt right and the brutal destruction of Kings Landing seemed true to GoT's essence. I also thought Jaime's end was perfect and, kinda, beautiful. Completely true to his character.

Varys' death was also well executed. His line to Tyrion, "I hope I deserve this. I hope I'm wrong" was the line of the season for me.

And, as always with Sapochnik, a beautifully directed episode.

intellectual dosser · 14-05-2019 08:37AM

Up until now I didnt buy into the bad writing complaints, once they went past the books everyone would have a different opinion of how things should go, and you can't please everyone.

But Varys...

Varys spent over 15 years as Master Of Whispers to Robert Baratheon after saving Vicerys and Dany from the rebellion. In that time he plotted to return them to the throne, but when it came to it he still sent assassins after them to keep his mask on and protect his own life.

Then within days of finding out about Jon Snow he abandons all rationale and cunning, and is fairly blatant about his treason. Disappointing.

Anyone think him taking off the rings is in any way significant?

14-05-2019 08:37AM

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

I hoped for a better death for her.. But I suppose with her being pregnant they couldn't really be too vicious with her?

I don't really understand this argument. They had no problem having Robb Stark's pregnant wife being stabbed repeatedly in the stomach during the Red Wedding.

ziedth · 14-05-2019 08:41AM

vetinari wrote: »

I understand being disappointed at his arc but some of the criticism makes it sound like Jaime became a traitor. He didn't take up arms against the "good" guys.

Now that I have had time to digest it and I I view it as he was going back to save Cersei (by escape?) and not fight for her (although his vow was to fight for the living nit to fight for the queen).

Its disappointing and I think a better end to the arch would have been him getting killed in Winterfell. I don't think they needed the scenes
with now Brieanne either. I think it would have nearly worked better if he just rode off having defeated they knight king. It isn't as bad as I had thought just somewhat disappointing.

I loved that Cersei cracked before she died as Tywin even said she wasn't as clever as she thought she was and to watch her slowly realise that through facial acting was excellent. Bar the last two episodes where she has done quite well Emilia Clarke is some why off Lena Hendley as an actress.

is_that_so · 14-05-2019 08:42AM

Foxtrol wrote: »

There's plenty to gripe about with the last few seasons, but what I'm commenting on is posters complaining about directions they went with characters and their deaths. Just because you didn't like it doesn't mean it didn't make sense for the character or that it goes against how the show dealt with things for 8 seasons.

It's not what people like or dislike. Sure the evil maniac thing lurked within her and it was always a possibility but that path was not properly developed unless you mean the sulking and pouting they've had her do for two seasons. It's a writing and plotting issue and that has been done far too fast and quite badly.

intellectual dosser · 14-05-2019 08:47AM

ziedth wrote: »

Now that I have had time to digest it and I I view it as he was going back to save Cersei (by escape?) and not fight for her (although his vow was to fight for the living nit to fight for the queen).

Its disappointing and I think a better end to the arch would have been him getting killed in Winterfell. I don't think they needed the scenes
with now Brieanne either. I think it would have nearly worked better if he just rode off having defeated they knight king. It isn't as bad as I had thought just somewhat disappointing.

I loved that Cersei cracked before she died as Tywin even said she wasn't as clever as she thought she was and to watch her slowly realise that through facial acting was excellent. Bar the last two episodes where she has done quite well Emilia Clarke is some why off Lena Hendley as an actress.

For Jamie, Brienne represented honour, something he's wanted to recover all his life.

Anything horrible or dishonourable Jamie has ever done has been for Cersei. You could argue Jamie and Brienne getting it on was Jamie finally securing the honour he's craved all his life, but when he got it he still gave it up for Cersei. I think their ending was fitting.

lawred2 · 14-05-2019 08:54AM

cursai wrote: »

urmm... well... I don't get it

however there's never a wrong time to put up a picture of Kate Beckinsale

lawred2 · 14-05-2019 08:57AM

angel eyes 2012 wrote: »

Does anyone know what the significance of Varys was with the letter and the child at the start of the episode. Who was he trying to inform and did he not burn the letter before he was taken away?

LOOK HERE EVERYONE THIS LAD VARYS HERE IS A TRAITOR

TIME FOR DRAGONS

DRACA.... gah I don't care anymore

Mousewar · 14-05-2019 09:12AM

intellectual dosser wrote: »

For Jamie, Brienne represented honour, something he's wanted to recover all his life.

Anything horrible or dishonourable Jamie has ever done has been for Cersei. You could argue Jamie and Brienne getting it on was Jamie finally securing the honour he's craved all his life, but when he got it he still gave it up for Cersei. I think their ending was fitting.

Yeah, I wasn't mad on the Brienne hookup but it worked as a representation of an alternative for Jaime. But he couldn't do it. Despite having potential happiness presented to him, he still chose to go back and die with Cersei. And that made sense I think.

Effects · 14-05-2019 09:28AM

Turtwig wrote: »

Yep they did. However, there is a demographic in the US who would take extreme offence to it.

What demographic and why would they take offence?

bigslice · 14-05-2019 09:37AM

intellectual dosser wrote: »

For Jamie, Brienne represented honour, something he's wanted to recover all his life.

Anything horrible or dishonourable Jamie has ever done has been for Cersei. You could argue Jamie and Brienne getting it on was Jamie finally securing the honour he's craved all his life, but when he got it he still gave it up for Cersei. I think their ending was fitting.

Totally agree with this and it’s the way I’ve seen it play.

Jamie has been sleeping with his twin sister since for 20plus year, had children and went to drastic measures to keep this a “secret”. Everything he done was for her and their children up to a point. He was then pushed away and tried to find redemption. The last time he tried to do good earned him the label of Kingslayer that was a burden rather than the honour it should have been.

He wanted to do the right thing, going North was done reluctantly after been rejected again. He thought he’d feel different and had found new love. But basically went it became apparent that Cersei was facing death and Dany was hell bent on it, the pull was too strong. His feelings came back and he had to act.
Like an addict, he knew what he really wanted and he went after it, against his better judgement and what was the safe, easy option.

I’m not buying the pregnancy either. To me it was Cersei’s manipulating of both men andnused to the last to save her herself. It was as if to force Jamie into saving her somehow.

I think their ending was apt.

TerrorFirmer · 14-05-2019 09:39AM

Yeah, I really don't get all the negative reaction to Cersei and Jaime. It was a fitting end for both. It was a bittersweet end for Jaime; he never went back to save Cersei, he went back just to die with her. It doesn't undo the fact that he became a better man over the course of the 8 seasons. He had a brief taste of that 'other' life he could have lived (with Brienne), but he didn't want it in the end. Cersei is his destiny, really. It doesn't mean he condones everything, or anything she does, but his infatuation is so intense that it blinds him to all logic and reason.

He said it himself - it was his love for Cersei that made him the cruel man he was - and arguably is still capable of being, because of her. It was only that ham-fisted scene with Bronn (I guess we now know its genuine purpose) where reality all came crashing down on Jaime that the war really was coming to Kings Landing and it would not end until Cersei was dead.

Cersei - it's not a 'happy' ending for her as some are claiming. Just because she wasn't gruesomely executed, butchered, torn apart by wild animals, doesn't make it a happy or unjust end. She's arrogant right until the very end, until painful reality too comes crashing down on her head and she breaks. It is pitiful to see her beg a dying Jaime to somehow save her and their unborn child. It was all she had left, and she knows in the end that she has condemned their last child to death, too.

Jaime was always faithful to her and all the worst things he did were for her. Cersei was sometimes cruel, often unfaithful and frequently manipulative towards Jaime, but they truly did love each other and in the end she was delighted to see him more than anyone else in Westeros.

The look on her face when a dying Jaime shuffles up to her in the collapsing forecourt is actually touching.

Honestly, to me, it's pretty much the only thing the writers got pretty much bang on right this entire season. This clip from S04E10 is spectacular in capturing what Cersei and Jaime had, and how deep it runs - the last few minutes in particular.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVBeRSDdmdU

yourdeadwright · 14-05-2019 09:42AM

I really enjoyed it for what it was epic TV.,

The story line has fallen away since they pasted the books but that's was always going to be the case, but its still enjoyable TV ,

magic_murph · 14-05-2019 09:51AM

Why did they decide to finish with just 6 episodes. One of the most popular and probably lucrative shows HBO have every done and they wrap it up so quickly. Had they spent another two seasons (15-20 episodes) that would have given a batter send off and chance of closing it out properly.
For me it's become hard to watch with the random stories just fired in for the sake of it.
It's a shame that 80% (Made up figures but based on pure bro science) will feel disappointed when its all over.

What are the predictions for next week - can't see another battle happening but more Dani getting a strong talking too with people shaking their fists at her, realizing she was wrong and accepting her fate as never getting the throne - she will welcome death. Jon Snow to killer her - beheading style.

yourdeadwright · 14-05-2019 09:54AM

magic_murph wrote: »

Why did they decide to finish with just 6 episodes. One of the most popular and probably lucrative shows HBO have every done and they wrap it up so quickly. Had they spent another two seasons (15-20 episodes) that would have given a batter send off and chance of closing it out properly.
For me it's become hard to watch with the random stories just fired in for the sake of it.
It's a shame that 80% (Made up figures but based on pure bro science) will feel disappointed when its all over.

What are the predictions for next week - can't see another battle happening but more Dani getting a strong talking too with people shaking their fists at her, realizing she was wrong and accepting her fate as never getting the throne - she will welcome death. Jon Snow to killer her - beheading style.

They couldn't keep the a cast any longer, its been ten years, people have to move on ,

is_that_so · 14-05-2019 10:00AM

yourdeadwright wrote: »

They couldn't keep the a cast any longer, its been ten years, people have to move on ,

An extra 5-7 episodes over these two seasons wouldn't have killed them and they could have done them in the usual timescale with the cast. This feature-length format has got very tired.

bigslice · 14-05-2019 10:01AM

angel eyes 2012 wrote: »

Does anyone know what the significance of Varys was with the letter and the child at the start of the episode. Who was he trying to inform and did he not burn the letter before he was taken away?

Reference was made to Dany not eating and whatever been asked couldn’t have been completed as a result, the child worked in the kitchens.

Can therefore be suggested that Varys using his little birds to
Poison Dany as a last resort, he knew he was been watched.

Also emphasized the point he was plotting against her and didn’t want to reveal the extent of this by burning the evidence already knowing his faith.

My guess is that Sansa was his contact and he was plotting with her and the last episode will lead to this.

ednwireland · 14-05-2019 10:05AM

dont get the hate for varys demise

daenerys asked him to tell her if he ever thought she was losing it to tell her, when they first met in mereen and not to plot against her but as soon as he didnt like something he reverts to type and starts plotting to create their demise.

she told him she would burn him if he plotted against her and so she did

GreeBo · 14-05-2019 10:07AM

ednwireland wrote: »

dont get the hate for varys demise

daenerys asked him to tell her if he ever thought she was losing it to tell her, when they first met in mereen and not to plot against her but as soon as he didnt like something he reverts to type and starts plotting to create their demise.

she told him she would burn him if he plotted against her and so she did

in fairness they have all been telling her that she is going loopy and cant just kill innocent people...problem is not in the telling, its in the listening.

is_that_so · 14-05-2019 10:08AM

ednwireland wrote: »

dont get the hate for varys demise

daenerys asked him to tell her if he ever thought she was losing it to tell her, when they first met in mereen and not to plot against her but as soon as he didnt like something he reverts to type and starts plotting to create their demise.

she told him she would burn him if he plotted against her and so she did

It was a "How do we fill this 5m of plot?" moment.

Loafing Oaf · 14-05-2019 10:11AM

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Anyone think him taking off the rings is in any way significant?

Taking them off and putting them in a bowl, vainly hoping for a first and last bit of swinging action before the end, like Arya...

Mokuba · 14-05-2019 10:15AM

bigslice wrote: »

Totally agree with this and it’s the way I’ve seen it play.

The last time he tried to do good earned him the label of Kingslayer that was a burden rather than the honour it should have been.

The last time he tried to do good? Really, that's what you're going with there? I really wonder if half the people in this thread have ever watched the show.

Jaime's good deeds :
- Confronts Ned Stark on the streets to protect Tyrion.
- Saves Brienne from rape, losing his hand in the process.
- Develops a friendship with Brienne and demands Roose Bolton let Brianne leave with Jaime.
- When Roose refuses, he jumps into a pit with a large bear, with no weapon and one hand.
- He is the only person who believes the innocence of Tyrion RE Joffrey. He counsels him and helps him.
- He agrees to break another oath and leave the Kingsguard to spare Tyrion's life at the trial.
- When Tyrion loses, he breaks him out, saving an innocent man.
- He arms Brienne specifically so she can find the Stark girls and he can keep his promise to a dead woman.
- He goes on a potential suicide mission to rescue his innocent daughter to Dorne.
- He makes peace with Doran, which should have kept Dorne out of the wars to come.
- He ensures Trystane remains on the boat to save him from Cersei.
- He allows Olenna a peaceful and painless death despite Cersei's wishes and Olenna being an ally of his enemy.
- He arranged the council meeting for a ceasefire.
- When Cersei outlined her intention to break her vow, he realised how terrible she was, abandoned her in the face of possible execution.
- He rode north to fight for the living, knowing he would have to potentially face the consequences for his prior actions.
- He made his apologies and Knighted Brienne.
- He fought the dead on the frontline when it may have meant his death and saved others at numerous points in the battle.

JK LOL Time to abandon my friends and Brienne. LOL I don't care about the people of kings landing. LOL I'm actually addicted to Cersei even though we have clearly been growing more distant for years and I happily ever left her thinking I'd never see her again.

Lor11 · 14-05-2019 10:17AM

bigslice wrote: »

Reference was made to Dany not eating and whatever been asked couldn’t have been completed as a result, the child worked in the kitchens.

Can therefore be suggested that Varys using his little birds to
Poison Dany as a last resort, he knew he was been watched.

Also emphasized the point he was plotting against her and didn’t want to reveal the extent of this by burning the evidence already knowing his faith.

My guess is that Sansa was his contact and he was plotting with her and the last episode will lead to this.

I noticed on the table in front of him in the first scene that he had a number of rolled up scrolls. I assumed that he was getting the knowledge of Jon's parentage out to as many houses as possible before the inevitable happened to him. As this scene happened in the morning and he hasn't captured till the evening that he got at least some of these scrolls off dragon stone by raven.

Dubh Geannain · 14-05-2019 10:21AM

Best episode of the season so far. I really enjoyed it.

Will always find fault with something on this scale with so many main characters to follow but the ones this week that irked me a little (not enough to ruin what was a real spectacle though). In order of least to most annoying -

Arya traveling all the way across the continent into to the map room only to be convinced by the hound's "don't be like me, go home girl" speech. Still believable as it was the first time the hound displayed genuine affection for her.
Davos on the front line inside the city. Surely in shooting even Liam Cunningham would be like "eh lads, am I supposed to be here?"
Euron. Just to confirm he dies we could have had Jamie row past him on a bit of driftwood and stick him there and then or even just see his washed up corpse on the beach.

All that said though, a great episode and I've no idea how it's going to end next week.

No issue with Dany apart from the rushed nature of her decent into madness. In the last 3 episodes she lost a lot of her armies, lost another dragon (the previous one dying because of Jon Snow), lost Jorah, lost Missandei, lost the love of Jon Snow. Betrayed by Jon (Sansa), Tyrion and Varys. Greyworm was the only 100% loyal person she had left and what does he do, the night before the battle, throws the collar into the fire. They both knew what was coming.

Should have been more episodes to tie up but this is the hand we are dealt so I plan on enjoying it.

"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 5 "The bells" - Spoilers post 2 forward

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