"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 5 "The bells" - Spoilers post 2 forward

13-05-2019 10:35PM

Turtwig wrote: »

Side note: found it really interesting the producers referred it to the Dresden Bombings. For all the feminst liberal stuff the show get's accused of, it'll be amazing if they don't get taken to task for the implied position they took on Dresden. That was a brave, and in my opinion, very fitting reference to make.

They could equally have given a nod to the Vietnam war with Dany destroying the city in order to "save" it. Maybe we are looking too deeply into it!

is_that_so · 13-05-2019 10:35PM

lawlolawl wrote: »

Jon: "no, stop!"

/impales a guy on his sword

Jon: "why are you doing this this?!?!"

/slices a guys head clean in two

Jon: "i'm so sick of these Games Of Thrones!"

/does a wicked cool spin-slice and beheads 3 guys at once

That's actually better dialogue!

meeeeh · 13-05-2019 10:35PM

namloc1980 wrote: »

Took them about 3 minutes to become dehumanised and a bit rapey and slaughtering women and children. It was all a bit bizarre to be honest.

That wasn't the first battle they were in. Most would have years of war behind them.

is_that_so · 13-05-2019 10:36PM

ctrl-alt-delete wrote: »

Seems he did, last I remember was him watching for the bells, then watching Danaerys fly off again. Looked like he was still outside at that point.

Think there's a bit in the finale trailer that shows him walking through the gate.

~Rebel~ · 13-05-2019 10:39PM

Ok. So. Daenerys.

I've read through all the comments, and the biggest justification for her switch is that the signs were there all along, she was already violent etc.

That's true - this clearly has been the ultimate ending planned. There were plenty of signs hinting towards it. That's grand.

But the jump between where she was not long ago, and where she switched to last night was too much, too soon. It needed to be earned within her character, but it wasn't. It needed a full extra season's worth of dedicated character progression.

Looking at it from a blunt plot point of view, people point to; "she suffered great loss, and snapped", but just think about the practicalities of that from an emotional point of view: What would it take you to go outside and murder a bunch of random strangers? That's the leap we're talking about. Not just having a mental breakdown, not just having a huge mood swing, or a self destructive episode, but actually becoming a murderous psychopath on a vast scale.

This was a woman who we've seen go through incredible trauma - bred to be sold by her brother, then losing her husband, and her unborn baby. Her entire story and character from that point has been based around stopping this sort of thing happening to innocents. She's had incredibly brutal and violent instincts since then, but always always in service of the greater good.

Her switching to a psycho wasn't the disaster, that switch is a really interesting choice for the story viewed in the wider context - but them not providing enough of the in-between character changes required to be in any way even remotely realistic and earned was pure laziness/rushed storytelling. We needed to see her start to show malice and violence on a smaller scale towards generally innocent people without a clear greater goal at the heart of her actions. Like, for instance if Dickon Tarly had bent the knee as his Dad wished, and she burned him anyway saying the whole family were traitors, that would have been a great little character builder. But they didn't do that. Or anything like that.

They did all the broad thematic setup, and the foreshadowing - but not the nuts and bolts character change and development required for such a monumental change in personality and behaviour. In short order, they turned her from a ruthless but pragmatic Roose Bolton into full on crazy Ramsey Bolton.

storker · 13-05-2019 10:39PM

ctrl-alt-delete wrote: »

I wonder what the significance was of him removing his rings?

Maybe he'd seen Donnie Brasco.

storker · 13-05-2019 10:43PM

namloc1980 wrote: »

WTF is Jon going to do about all those Northern soldiers who went on a killing spree of innocent people? Unsullied turned into war criminals also.

I doubt that the idea of a "war crime" exists in Westeros.

lawred2 · 13-05-2019 10:44PM

Had to fast forward through Dany's decent into madness to make sure we had enough time for Arya's slow mo horse whisperer scene.

meeeeh · 13-05-2019 10:45PM

Turtwig wrote: »

Side note: found it really interesting the producers referred it to the Dresden Bombings. For all the feminst liberal stuff the show get's accused of, it'll be amazing if they don't get taken to task for the implied position they took on Dresden. That was a brave, and in my opinion, very fitting reference to make.

So they did get inspiration from Dresden bombings? I thought of that when I saw the episode. I don't think the implied position is that controversial anymore. Btw I also checked the numbers Soviet soldiers rapped up to two million German women. There are plenty historical examples of the type of behaviour thiss episode depicted.

Slydice · 13-05-2019 10:47PM

That scene at the end with Arya. The change of look and sound and all that. That was something!

lawlolawl · 13-05-2019 10:47PM

lawred2 wrote: »

Had to fast forward through Dany's decent into madness to make sure we had enough time for Arya's slow mo horse whisperer scene.

To be fair, it was a really nice horse.

whatawaster · 13-05-2019 10:47PM

Nothing Dany has ever said, done or experienced suggested she would intentionally target thousands of innocent people with dragon fire.

This wasn't collateral damage. It was genocide.

She could have flown and burned the red keep to the ground. She didn't need to sweep the streets in a burning rampage.

If that's her ending they should have developed her character to that point. They didn't come close

namloc1980 · 13-05-2019 10:47PM

storker wrote: »

I doubt that the idea of a "war crime" exists in Westeros.

But their honour had been very much an idea in the show. Suddenly got dumped when some women and children were there for the butchering.

lawred2 · 13-05-2019 10:48PM

Enthralling and rubbish all at the same time.

Some feat.

Notorious · 13-05-2019 10:49PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

If GoT is somewhat constant with anything, you rarely get what you deserve. After the pre-War of Winterfell episode, I feared they were going full standard TV show and pander to the viewers with everything. It’s far from perfect but I’m happy it looks like they’ve avoided that.

I'd be the very person who loved how GoT did the unexpected. In the last two seasons there has been a lot of fan service from the lack of any major character deaths, the forced John and Dany union, and the coupling of Jamie and Brienne. IMO they have been pandering to viewers and fans.

And while we rarely get what we deserve, I think Cersei and Jamie dying in the keep was a real cop out. A quick way to cut off the tails off their story arc. When Jamie left Winterfell I had a sneaking suspicion that he was going to be the one to take out Cersei, where as instead he just switches sides again. I think that's lazy storytelling.

lawred2 · 13-05-2019 10:49PM

lawlolawl wrote: »

To be fair, it was a really nice horse.

This is true.. also a very convincing performance from the horse. Never doubted for a second that it was indeed a horse.

lawlolawl · 13-05-2019 10:49PM

whatawaster wrote: »

Nothing Dany has ever said, done or experienced suggested she would intentionally target thousands of innocent people with dragon fire.

This wasn't collateral damage. It was genocide.

She could have flown and burned the red keep to the ground. She didn't need to sweep the streets in a burning rampage.

If that's her ending they should have developed her character to that point. They didn't come close

No, but you see, what if the good guys were actually the bad guys?

Eh?!!?!?

Have i just blown your mind?

13-05-2019 10:49PM

The Boltons were northerners, the men who wanted to rape Brienne when they captured her and Jaime were Northerners. They are no better than any others once they are off their home patch, the last few seasons they have just been fighting for their homeland so we haven't got to see the bad side of them but if you go way back to the days of Robb it was clear

is_that_so · 13-05-2019 10:50PM

lawred2 wrote: »

Enthralling and rubbish all at the same time.

Some feat.

They've repeated it a few times this season!

RickBlaine · 13-05-2019 10:51PM

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Ok. So. Daenerys.

I've read through all the comments, and the biggest justification for her switch is that the signs were there all along, she was already violent etc.

That's true - this clearly has been the ultimate ending planned. There were plenty of signs hinting towards it. That's grand.

But the jump between where she was not long ago, and where she switched to last night was too much, too soon. It needed to be earned within her character, but it wasn't. It needed a full extra season's worth of dedicated character progression.

Looking at it from a blunt plot point of view, people point to; "she suffered great loss, and snapped", but just think about the practicalities of that from an emotional point of view: What would it take you to go outside and murder a bunch of random strangers? That's the leap we're talking about. Not just having a mental breakdown, not just having a huge mood swing, or a self destructive episode, but actually becoming a murderous psychopath on a vast scale.

This was a woman who we've seen go through incredible trauma - bred to be sold by her brother, then losing her husband, and her unborn baby. Her entire story and character from that point has been based around stopping this sort of thing happening to innocents. She's had incredibly brutal and violent instincts since then, but always always in service of the greater good.

Her switching to a psycho wasn't the disaster, that switch is a really interesting choice for the story viewed in the wider context - but them not providing enough of the in-between character changes required to be in any way even remotely realistic and earned was pure laziness/rushed storytelling. We needed to see her start to show malice and violence on a smaller scale towards generally innocent people without a clear greater goal at the heart of her actions. Like, for instance if Dickon Tarly had bent the knee as his Dad wished, and she burned him anyway saying the whole family were traitors, that would have been a great little character builder. But they didn't do that. Or anything like that.

They did all the broad thematic setup, and the foreshadowing - but not the nuts and bolts character change and development required for such a monumental change in personality and behaviour. In short order, they turned her from a ruthless but pragmatic Roose Bolton into full on crazy Ramsey Bolton.

I think we agree. I have no problem with Dany becoming the mad queen, it was a natural progression from the cruel streak we had seen in her. But as you said, it needed a full series of descent into madness.

I think a lot of this season's problems can be traced back to trying to cram too much into six episodes.

Turtwig · 13-05-2019 10:52PM

meeeeh wrote: »

So they did get inspiration from Dresden bombings? I thought of that when I saw the episode. I don't think the implied position is that controversial anymore. Btw I also checked the numbers Soviet soldiers rapped up to two million German women. There are plenty historical examples of the type of behaviour thiss episode depicted.

Yep they did. Don't think it's all that controversial either. However, there is a demographic in the US who would take extreme offence to it.

whatawaster wrote: »

Nothing Dany has ever said, done or experienced suggested she would intentionally target thousands of innocent people with dragon fire.

This wasn't collateral damage. It was genocide.

She could have flown and burned the red keep to the ground. She didn't need to sweep the streets in a burning rampage.

If that's her ending they should have developed her character to that point. They didn't come close

Except she did. You just didn't consider all the people she killed before as 'innocent' and thus were ok with rationalising her acts of mass murder. This genocide was always within her potential.

RickBlaine · 13-05-2019 10:53PM

One of the guests on Thronecast on Sky thought that girl Varys was talking to at the start of the episode was Shireen. Bloody hell, do they just choose random D list celebs for those guests.

is_that_so · 13-05-2019 10:56PM

Turtwig wrote: »

Yep they did. Don't think it's all that controversial either. However, there is a demographic in the US who would take extreme offence to it.

Except she did. You just didn't consider all the people she killed before as 'innocent' and thus were ok with rationalising her acts of mass murder. This genocide was always within her potential.

It's almost shark jumping to do it so close to the end and it's the lack of actual plot development to allow her to be just a cardboard baddie that is most at issue.

nix · 13-05-2019 10:57PM

storker wrote: »

I doubt that the idea of a "war crime" exists in Westeros.

Thats what bugs me, people make claim that things Danny done were acts of madness, she just punished those that terrorised and enslaved the innocent for the most part.

It's how that world works, heck Jorah sold poachers on his lands to slavers and got caught and was sentenced to be executed (by Ned stark of all people) before he done a runner across the sea.

So for example, Dany nailing slavers on sign posts like they did little children, isnt exactly harsh punishment or madness tbh.

namloc1980 · 13-05-2019 10:59PM

Turtwig wrote: »

Except she did. You just didn't consider all the people she killed before as 'innocent' and thus were ok with rationalising her acts of mass murder. This genocide was always within her potential.

Did she ever torch thousands of innocent people before? She definitely had a tendency for violence and burning enemy's or perceived enemy's but the people were never the target. Time and again we were told she was a saviour of the people.

whatawaster · 13-05-2019 10:59PM

Turtwig wrote: »

Except she did. You just didn't consider all the people she killed before as 'innocent' and thus were ok with rationalising her acts of mass murder. This genocide was always within her potential.

Everyone she killed she had a reason to kill imo, up to and including Varys. In the world of GOT you don't conspire against your ruler and live to tell the tale. That's true whether it's Dany, Tywin Lannister or Ned Stark

Throughout the entire story she has struggled between wanting to do the right thing and wanting to rule. She hasn't always done the right thing but she has never killed for no reason and without conscience.

The killings in this episode served no purpose other than the lazy, incompetent writers using it as a tool to say "look how crazy this woman is"

namloc1980 · 13-05-2019 11:06PM

Cersei was right!

Jurgen The German · 13-05-2019 11:07PM

Visually stunning episode but more holes than a sieve.

I enjoyed it despite some of the silliness and it contained what might be my favourite scene ever in the show, the final meeting with Tyrion and Jamie, maybe it was just me but I had a genuine lump in my throat watching it.

nix · 13-05-2019 11:08PM

Weepsie wrote: »

She "freed" slaves, only to essentially enslave them herself. She's never been anything other than a militant tyrant despite her claims.

They followed her, they wanted to become part of her cause, she never made them do anything

whatawaster · 13-05-2019 11:09PM

Weepsie wrote: »

She thought she had a good reason to kill, but she didn't other than it suited her need. She upended how several civilisations worked.

She "freed" slaves, only to essentially enslave them herself. She's never been anything other than a militant tyrant despite her claims.

Every freed slave followed her willingly. What ones were there against their will.

Basically every leader in this story kills when they think they need to. But if any one of them did what she did today it would be equally ridiculous. The only thing that made Dany different to any of them was that she also did extraordinarily good things.

She stayed in Mereen because she genuinely didn't want it to fall back into the hands of slavery because she knew ordinary people would suffer. That's undeniable.

"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 5 "The bells" - Spoilers post 2 forward

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