"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 5 "The bells" - Spoilers post 2 forward

is_that_so · 13-05-2019 05:26PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

During those ‘wasted’ seven seasons, how did she become that ruler? What did she do to the people who didn't submit to her? What did she do to people who were associated with her enemies? What did her advisers have to talk her down from doing on several occasions?

What happened to her during that time was an evolution of sorts. Pandering to her base elements as she did at times I can understand but she became a psycho here in 20 seconds. That's really bad writing.

2ndcoming · 13-05-2019 05:28PM

Just on the visions, there's nothing to say Bran wasn't viewing the past, the Targaryens had dragons in KL for over 200 years. It could still have been Balerion the Dread we were seeing. It was clever writing because it made sense either way.

Also Dany in the house of the undying were tricks more than visions, they were trying to keep her there forever so maybe nothing she saw there was reliable.

It's very likely she still believes she has done what she had to do to achieve her goal of making the world a better place. It's a hard truth to accept that most of the tyrants of history believed it was their destiny to save their people. We paint them as demons after the fact.

Everything about her we have seen so far says she believes she is destined to save Westeros from itself, if the only way to do that is through fear she will surely be feared after this.

Going back to Bran's vision, fear was how the Targaryens conquered Westeros in the first place, he wasn't called the Black Dread for nothing. In the short time the Targaryens haven't been in charge the country has been in endless power struggles and civil wars, Daenerys has never shown any interest in their game. She has done what she said she would, great houses have been wiped out left, right and centre so one way or another the wheel has been broken.

13-05-2019 05:33PM

I do feel sympathy for Danny. She could have burned Kings Landing to the ground at the beginning of season 7 but she tried the more clever / peaceful approach and lost parts of her army. Then she got sucked into the fight against the dead and she did everything she could to help. Ultimately her help wasn't very much appreciated and the people much prefer Jon/Sansa etc. Losing her best friends / advisers, losing her claim to the throne, losing 2 of her dragons, it became too much for her and she snapped.

Its a tough thing for the show to convey. Give away too much and its not a surprise, give away too little and it seems out of character.

PressRun · 13-05-2019 05:50PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I do feel sympathy for Danny. She could have burned Kings Landing to the ground at the beginning of season 7 but she tried the more clever / peaceful approach and lost parts of her army. Then she got sucked into the fight against the dead and she did everything she could to help. Ultimately her help wasn't very much appreciated and the people much prefer Jon/Sansa etc. Losing her best friends / advisers, losing her claim to the throne, losing 2 of her dragons, it became too much for her and she snapped.

Its a tough thing for the show to convey. Give away too much and its not a surprise, give away too little and it seems out of character.

I don't think something like that has to be a surprise though? If it's something that's well written, then it can still play out in a satisfying way. People seem to confuse twists and turns and surprise with good writing. Just cos something is surprising doesn't automatically make it good. The predictable outcome can still be executed in a way that is satisfying.

ricero · 13-05-2019 06:02PM

This series truly is the drizzling ****s

Paddy Cow · 13-05-2019 06:07PM

fash wrote: »

I must say I liked the Cersei end- not everything needs to be big: dead is dead.

I liked it to, purely because it's so unfair that she didn't face any sort of real justice and instead got to die in the arms of Jamie. It just goes to show that you can be a total cnut and karma won't get you. Compare how she died to how she left the sand snake mother and daughter in her dungeon. She really got off lightly.

OneOfThem Stumbled · 13-05-2019 06:12PM

Euron plays Middle of Season
Middle of Season grants random bonus for 1 turn
+20 Perception applied to Euron for 1 turn.
Euron attacks Rheagal using ship
Critical hit 1000 damage! Combo 2000 damage! Super combo 4000 damage!
Rhaegal has died!
End of turn.

Daenerys plays PENULTIMATE EPISODE
PENULTIMATE EPISODE removes plot armour from all named characters and grants caster 1 additional move.
Daenerys plays Resurrect
Resurrect allows up to two player armies to be taken out of the graveyard.
Dothraki and Unsullied have been broth back!
Daenerys attacks using Drogon
ATTK 9999 DEF 9999

Euron counters Drogon using ship
Oh no, Euron's perception has expired!

---

Cersei - I am a brutal Machiavellian political player. That's why I chose to get the tattered remnants of my forces, and those of my horny pirate boyfriend, into a fight against the whole of Westeros and a good chunk of Essos. Oh no, my forces are losing, I am so scared and surprised.
Arya - I am a trained assassin. That is why noone will ever ask me to assassinate anyone this season. I will kill one antagonist in order to save the world, but I won't kill the second antagonist to save the capital.
Sandor - I am a cynical realist. I know there's no point to harbouring grudges, and that all my enemies here will be destroyed by the dragon anyway, but Cleganebowl get hype.
Jamie - I am a flawed man who tries to do the right thing and knows that sometimes you have to let the past (and all the people) die.
Daenerys - Our fathers were evil men. All of us here. They left the world worse than they found it. We’re not going to do that. We’re going to leave the world better than we found it. Oh no, bells.

---

Sandor: I just have to kill my brother!
Arya: Where's your torch?
Sandor: My what?
Arya: Your torch. He's undead, your brother. Just burn him.
Sandor: Don't you understand? I can't stand fire, I can't bear to be near it, I would rather die than get close to it!
Arya: How about falling into an inferno from 30 feet?

*5 minutes later*
Gregor: It's over Sandor, I have the high ground!

*5 minutes later*
Gregor: Brother! It's awfully hard to see around this hilt.

IAMAMORON · 13-05-2019 06:13PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Who rang the bell it wasn't as it couldnt have been jamie?

A campanologist.

storker · 13-05-2019 06:14PM

nix wrote: »

Not kill them all and destroy the city for no reason, just didnt make sense, regardless of her loss.

I makes perfect sense to me. For a few seasons I've thought she was a bit too imperious, a bit too full of herself*, and had a bit too much of an obsession with other peoples' submission, and then there's her massive sense of entitlement regarding the throne. Taking all this into account, together with her recent bereavements and disappointments, can it really be that surprising that someone, from a family not exactly known for acting rationally, goes postal?

The recent losses weren't the cause of her...er...meltdown (sorry); they were just the tipping point, and I don't agree that this capacity for cruelty has just appeared in the last couple of episodes. When she roasted the Tarleys I could see that she was becoming a tyrant, even if I didn't imagine it would involve actually nuking an entire city.

*She grabs the credit for being the "Mother of Dragons" when she didn't even lay the eggs!

Foxtrol · 13-05-2019 06:15PM

is_that_so wrote: »

What happened to her during that time was an evolution of sorts. Pandering to her base elements as she did at times I can understand but she became a psycho here in 20 seconds. That's really bad writing.

Crucifying hundreds and leaving them to slowly die and their bodies be picked apart by animals because of their association to people who did bad things is pretty psycho to me. Burning men alive because they wouldn’t kneel to her is pretty psycho to me.

It wasn’t in 20 seconds that she became a psycho, Kings Landing was just the first time she was in a position where there wasn’t someone there to talk her out of a large scale massacre.

storker · 13-05-2019 06:18PM

IAMAMORON wrote: »

A campanologist.

I just assumed it was the last ever meeting of the King's Landing Bellringers Society.

fash · 13-05-2019 06:24PM

glasso wrote: »

All because Dani didn't get the ride from Jon Snow huh!?

All because she only got 1...

expectationlost · 13-05-2019 06:29PM

but but she was supposed to be breaking the wheel

Paddy Cow · 13-05-2019 06:31PM

Jorah, Barristan and Tyrion all warned her at some stage that she couldn't just stroll into Westeros and take over. But she didn't listen and thought she could force everyone to bend the knee.

Adamocovic · 13-05-2019 06:37PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

How dare the show runners not give away key pieces of the plot from the second last episode during a pointless vague episode recap :rolleyes:

I imagine he was just using that line as a joke. Been used a lot to poke fun this season since it was said by the writers in one of the after shows when asked how the iron fleet snuck up on Daenerys.

Whether he was being serious or not I found it funny ha.

ricero · 13-05-2019 06:37PM

Euron Greyjoy popping up at the exact moment on the exact beach was terrible writing.

is_that_so · 13-05-2019 06:49PM

ricero wrote: »

Euron Greyjoy popping up at the exact moment on the exact beach was terrible writing.

It was only the tip of the iceberg!

13-05-2019 06:51PM

Deleted User wrote: »

When I think about the beginning of 'Thrones to the almost end it seems that love was the cause of the many mistakes and triumphs. Even as far back as Leanna Stark giving Jon to Ned for his protection. He was born out of love and given away because of it. Daenerys descent in to madness may have been inevitable but it was a broken heart that caused her to destroy Kings Landing. All of the losses she accumulated and her plea to Jon to not tell. Then Jaime returned to Cersei. I had really thought he would be the one to kill her but really there was no other ending for those two.

I read someplace that their reunion ruined his redemption arc. I disagree because that fails to account for how complicated humans are. It is possible to be decent and to still love that one person who caused so much pain. Funnily enough Cersei for all her evil ways elicited the most sympathy from me. There was just something about her, a kind of brokenness underneath all the awful deeds.

That's a criticism which isn't exactly down to bad writing in Jaime's case, it's a personal thing for each viewer. Who said we were entitled to a redemption resolution for Jaime?* The show has definitely given Jaime the chance at redemption over the years, but also has shown him pulled in both directions between 'redemption' and Cersei.

I liked how Jaime's story ended and found it true to the complex character he's been through-out the show. It may have ruined hopes for a happy ending with he and Brienne up North, but given what we've seen from the first episode, I have no problem with Jaime going back to Cersei when he realised she was definitely going to be wiped out of existence.

Some are pointing out that Jaime originally became Kingslayer to save the people of KL, so therefore Jaime would never say that he doesn't care about the innocent people of Westeros, or say that Cersei was all that mattered. That thought immediately reminds me of this scene between Jaime and Edmure from season 6...

That scene was surprising at the time because many believed Jaime was destined for redemption where he might even out-honour Ned Stark and Jon Snow. However..."I will take your baby and catapult it over the wall...just to get back to Cersei" isn't exactly the stuff of redemption. Although there were examples in each season that Jaime was still wrapped around Cersei's finger, that scene with Edmure was a stark reminder late-on of exactly where Jaime and his loyalties were truly anchored to.

If Jaime's end doesn't sit well with some viewers, that is the way it is, it's a real-time reaction which can't be changed. I understand this...Arya shanking the NK and WW threat wasn't my own cup of tea. So I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, just explain why this particular resolution sits well with me.

Jaime was an addict, and although he showed promising signs of lasting sobriety at times, his addiction caught him in the end. When an addict dies, there can often be someone left to mourn them, someone who saw the best in them and gave everything to try and save them...but in the end it was futile as their addiction pulled them towards an untimely end. I guess that's Brienne now.

*Jaime might have failed to redeem himself in the eyes of the masses and the likes of Brienne, but he had redemption with Cersei. He died a hero in her eyes and loving arms, and that seems to be all that really mattered to him.

FutureGuy · 13-05-2019 06:51PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

It wasn’t in 20 seconds that she became a psycho, Kings Landing was just the first time she was in a position where there wasn’t someone there to talk her out of a large scale massacre.

Super point.

The White Wolf · 13-05-2019 06:55PM

soap1978 wrote: »

Hate when Jamie said he didn't care about the people

Same bloke who sullied himself by murdering his King....all to protect those people he allegedly doesn't care about.

is_that_so · 13-05-2019 07:00PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Crucifying hundreds and leaving them to slowly die and their bodies be picked apart by animals because of their association to people who did bad things is pretty psycho to me. Burning men alive because they wouldn’t kneel to her is pretty psycho to me.

It wasn’t in 20 seconds that she became a psycho, Kings Landing was just the first time she was in a position where there wasn’t someone there to talk her out of a large scale massacre.

In screen time it was 20 seconds. There was no build up, no hint even save for a few "shifty" sorts muttering in the wings. Previous occasions could be shown to have some level of justification. Why bother with all that noble queen development when they were just going set her up to go psycho in the second last episode of the show? If they want her to go on as another nutty queen that's fine but they have essentially turned her into a one-dimensional baddie who just burns people who disagree with her. On the writing front they have set up a mess that cannot be resolved satisfactorily in 1:20.

marklazarcovic · 13-05-2019 07:03PM

The scene of the brothers battling on the crumbling staircase,with the dragon flying overhead bellowing fire was simply sensational.

Paddy Cow · 13-05-2019 07:05PM

The White Wolf wrote: »

Same bloke who sullied himself by murdering his King....all to protect those people he allegedly doesn't care about.

He was also protecting himself, his father and his father's army. I wanted Jamie to be good but I accept the way he died with Cersei. It makes far more sense than him living happy ever after with Brienne.

vetinari · 13-05-2019 07:10PM

Some of that is for dramatic effect to be fair.
The time to have her snap would be in the middle of a battle while on top of Drogon.
People snap based on circumstances.

In a way, the victory came so easily that her blood lust wasn't satisfied.
There was an element of "Is this it, all that I've gone through and we've won so easily" to it.
She wanted to make more of a statement, to make the people truly fear her.

NuMarvel · 13-05-2019 07:41PM

expectationlost wrote: »

but but she was supposed to be breaking the wheel

She did. Along with the rest of the cart, the horse, the driver, the street underneath, and the houses beside it.

Foxtrol · 13-05-2019 07:43PM

is_that_so wrote: »

In screen time it was 20 seconds. There was no build up, no hint even save for a few "shifty" sorts muttering in the wings. Previous occasions could be shown to have some level of justification. Why bother with all that noble queen development when they were just going set her up to go psycho in the second last episode of the show? If they want her to go on as another nutty queen that's fine but they have essentially turned her into a one-dimensional baddie who just burns people who disagree with her. On the writing front they have set up a mess that cannot be resolved satisfactorily in 1:20.

Like most characters in GoT, she isn’t simply good or bad, even after what she did in the last episode. Yes, they built up the noble aspect of her with one hand, but with the other they’ve built a character that struggled with her temper, a god complex, and a vengeful nature throughout the full 8 seasons. We get an excuse to ignore the horrible things that she did to her earlier enemies, because they are framed as bad people to a cartoon level at times, and then given excuse to ignore even worse things she has said that she wanted to do, as her circumstances or advisors stop her before she can.

I’ve no problem with people preferring that they went a different route with her or that we had more time than 1 episode to resolve what she just did, but to quote Ramsey ‘you haven't been paying attention’ if you feel there hasn’t been build up showing her potential to be a ‘mad queen’.

J. Marston · 13-05-2019 07:46PM

The work that goes into these set-piece episodes really is incredible...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQ9QQMXTftY

ctrl-alt-delete · 13-05-2019 07:59PM

Is there a throne left to sit on?

castletownman · 13-05-2019 08:05PM

That was like a combo of Cloverfield and Pompeii, only way more awesome.

Outstanding television.

'10,000 innocent people. One not so innocent dwarf. Seems a fair trade". Cue manly tears

Was that the charred remains of the Hound that Ayra saw at the end? Oh man my heart couldn't take seeing the end of that fight scene.

But for some reason, The Mountain discarding his helmet reminded me of the unmasking of Kane, only far more terrifying

RickBlaine · 13-05-2019 08:05PM

I'm reading some commentary online saying that this episode has undone 7 seasons of character building with regards to Dany. I really don't think it has. Dany always had a mean streak and a temper. OK, she has never slaughtered innocents en masse before but her problems as a ruler in Essos were relatively minor compared to Westeros. In Essos, she considered her enemies to be slavers and the sons of the Harpy. In Westeros, she considered herself to be at odds with the general Westeros population as a whole. She never experienced that before.

She had always expected to be greeted by the Westerosi as a great liberator, as she was in Slaver's Bay. So the fact that they were completely apathetic towards her must have been a complete shock. Also, remember that when she arrived at Dragonstone, her first impulse was a full scale attack on King's Landing but Tyrion talked her out of it. And the killing of the Tarlys was completely against Tyrion's advise, and I presume the whole reason he was her adviser in the first place was to help her navigate Westerosi politics.

This season has piled so much **** on Dany that she elects to rule by fear. This isn't in the script but my take on that is once she made that decision, she always planned to burn King's Landing to make it an example to the rest of Westeros of what would happen if they disobeyed her. She probably never expected the city to surrender. So when the bells rang, you could see her debating something in her head, definitely some kind of internal conflict. She had planned to burn the city but now there was no justifiable cause to do so, but then she snapped and became the mad queen.

What I will say is that the show hasn't done a good job at this transition because it was far too quick. I think the season needed another couple of episodes to see a more gradual disintegration of Dany's sanity.

"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 5 "The bells" - Spoilers post 2 forward

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