Infertile Bull - Judge may award €16,000

patsy_mccabe · 09-05-2019 04:21PM #1

A warning to all pedigree breeders;
https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/news/courts/offaly-man-sued-over-claims-he-sold-infertile-bull-38090994.html

Injuryprone · 09-05-2019 05:03PM

Think you might want to read the article again....

Sheep breeder · 09-05-2019 05:05PM

Might be no harm to square the game up a bit for some fellas, couldn’t understand why the bull was not sold in roscrea, unless Tom rafter was bidding.
It’s not that long ago the limousin had a problem with a lad giving Bute to stock before sales and caused a lot of bad feelings from across the water on purchased animals.

tanko · 09-05-2019 05:13PM

Has the case been settled in favour of the buyer?

Sheep breeder · 09-05-2019 05:15PM

tanko wrote: »

Has the case been settled in favour of the buyer?

Yes think so read about on line today and the judge awarded damages and costs to the buyer.

whelan2 · 09-05-2019 05:46PM

It's a strange one apparently the bull had sired a calf before he was sold. Tbh these things are best sorted out out of court. This publicity wouldn't be good for the seller. Also the time frame of getting the cows scanned after the bull went in was a bit long, surely you'd notice cows in heat in the 6 months or whatever after the bull went in

charolais0153 · 09-05-2019 05:49PM

Sheep breeder wrote: »

Might be no harm to square the game up a bit for some fellas, couldn’t understand why the bull was not sold in roscrea, unless Tom rafter was bidding.
It’s not that long ago the limousin had a problem with a lad giving Bute to stock before sales and caused a lot of bad feelings from across the water on purchased animals.

What's Bute?

charolais0153 · 09-05-2019 05:51PM

If he sired a calf, surely the buyer has no ground to stand on. Caveat emptor.

whelan2 · 09-05-2019 05:54PM

charolais0153 wrote: »

If he sired a calf, surely the buyer has no ground to stand on. Caveat emptor.

That's what I thought but the judge said that was no guarantee that he was fertile when he was bought...

tanko · 09-05-2019 06:04PM

charolais0153 wrote: »

What's Bute?

Phenylbutazone, given to cattle to calm them down at sales and shows. It's illegal. A well known limousin breeder from Leitrim was convicted in court of using it a few years ago.

patsy_mccabe · 09-05-2019 06:29PM

tanko wrote: »

Phenylbutazone, given to cattle to calm them down at sales and shows. It's illegal. A well known limousin breeder from Leitrim was convicted in court of using it a few years ago.

Phenylbutazone is an anti-inflammatory. I met that breeder once and he's an absolute gent.

Lime Tree Farm · 09-05-2019 06:35PM

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/news/courts/farmer-awarded-huge-damages-over-infertile-bull-38095254.html

Never wrestle with pigs · 09-05-2019 06:42PM

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Phenylbutazone is an anti-inflammatory. I met that breeder once and he's an absolute gent.

Bit of a prick move to do though.

Say my name · 09-05-2019 06:48PM

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Phenylbutazone is an anti-inflammatory. I met that breeder once and he's an absolute gent.

It's not for the human food chain though.
Hence illegal in cattle. Even when used in horses which it is licenced for. Their passports have to be stamped that it was used on them so that animal never enters the human food chain.
Anyone that has any association with cattle knows it's illegal.

Even anyone using it on horses are frowned upon as if not an emergency they are deliberately masking a problem. Horse buyers would take a very serious view if they found out a seller used it on a horse.

J.O. Farmer · 09-05-2019 08:13PM

The link from agriland where the buyer won

Check this out on Agriland - Farmer who bought infertile bull awarded nearly €16,000 https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/farmer-who-bought-infertile-bull-awarded-nearly-e16000/

Grueller · 09-05-2019 09:57PM

Big implications for breeders here.
I see problems with this case.
1. The bull had a dna verified calf on the ground.
2. Fertility testing technician believed above a vet. Veterinary society will not like this as we were always told here that a tecchnicians report will not stand in court.
3. Why did the farmer keep the bull from February 2014 th March 2016 if he knew he was infertile?
4. How did the man go 5 months from buying to scanning and not notice cows coming bulling every 3 weeks?

Any range of things could have happened here.
1scenario is that the bull got ibr on the buyers farm, recovered but went infertile for a couple of months?
2. Was the condition of the bull at the time an issue? A bull straiht from a breeders yard to working with a big change in diet/nutrition? Maybe not as it was June and grass should have been plentiful.

I can see an appeal from the breed society as there was both a fertility test and a calf verified. It is really in the interest of the societies now to do something. Maybe even a fertility test on the day of sale along with a declaration that the buyer understands the risks of buying a bull and accepts the results of the fertility test.

One thing is for certain, this case is not black and white.

Lady Haywire · 09-05-2019 10:12PM

Not this case but a vet friend of mine told me recently enough that he had fertility tested a bull who was returned due to being infertile. Bull showed up perfectly fertile in the sample the vet took & checked. This was after the bull was returned & costs paid by the seller etc. He figures the buyer took the bull home & just thought he paid too much for him.

So there's shenanigans going on out there for sure!!!

Hard Knocks · 09-05-2019 10:29PM

Grueller wrote: »

Big implications for breeders here.
I see problems with this case.
1. The bull had a dna verified calf on the ground.
2. Fertility testing technician believed above a vet. Veterinary society will not like this as we were always told here that a tecchnicians report will not stand in court.
3. Why did the farmer keep the bull from February 2014 th March 2016 if he knew he was infertile?
4. How did the man go 5 months from buying to scanning and not notice cows coming bulling every 3 weeks?

Any range of things could have happened here.
1scenario is that the bull got ibr on the buyers farm, recovered but went infertile for a couple of months?
2. Was the condition of the bull at the time an issue? A bull straiht from a breeders yard to working with a big change in diet/nutrition? Maybe not as it was June and grass should have been plentiful.

I can see an appeal from the breed society as there was both a fertility test and a calf verified. It is really in the interest of the societies now to do something. Maybe even a fertility test on the day of sale along with a declaration that the buyer understands the risks of buying a bull and accepts the results of the fertility test.

One thing is for certain, this case is not black and white.

Think I read somewhere that on investigation the bull’s penis was hurt & the seller said it must of happened at the buyers

Grueller · 09-05-2019 10:36PM

Hard Knocks wrote: »

Think I read somewhere that on investigation the bull’s penis was hurt & the seller said it must of happened at the buyers

And the buyer also said that the bull was mounting cows and everything looked normal so if he stopped putting his rod out then the bull must have hurt it in the buyers place.

grassroot1 · 09-05-2019 11:08PM

To be honest I would side with the seller. I would expect the buyer to monitor a new bull for repeats. A fertility test is valid for a single snap shot in time only.
I think it is quite severe to be asked to pay for calves that might have been born.
To expect a breeder to be responsible for a bull that was sold such a long time is very unfair.
If a breeder sells a bull that turns out to be a very hard calver with lots of sections will they be held responsible?

Sheep breeder · 09-05-2019 11:52PM

Grueller wrote: »

Big implications for breeders here.
I see problems with this case.
1. The bull had a dna verified calf on the ground.
2. Fertility testing technician believed above a vet. Veterinary society will not like this as we were always told here that a tecchnicians report will not stand in court.
3. Why did the farmer keep the bull from February 2014 th March 2016 if he knew he was infertile?
4. How did the man go 5 months from buying to scanning and not notice cows coming bulling every 3 weeks?

Any range of things could have happened here.
1scenario is that the bull got ibr on the buyers farm, recovered but went infertile for a couple of months?
2. Was the condition of the bull at the time an issue? A bull straiht from a breeders yard to working with a big change in diet/nutrition? Maybe not as it was June and grass should have been plentiful.

I can see an appeal from the breed society as there was both a fertility test and a calf verified. It is really in the interest of the societies now to do something. Maybe even a fertility test on the day of sale along with a declaration that the buyer understands the risks of buying a bull and accepts the results of the fertility test.

One thing is for certain, this case is not black and white.

Don’t see the society’s getting involved in a private sale between two parties, they have had enough problems with animals sold under there sales. You say about buying a bull from a breeders yard to work a big change and do you not think the breeder has a part to play in having the bull ready to work as this is what the customer is buying. Most people let a bull run and scan when suits them. This bull was to work 22 cows and that is not over working. To many breeders are pushing bulls too hard on ad-lib meal and no natural development and something has to give.

Sheep breeder · 10-05-2019 12:02AM

Lady Haywire wrote: »

Not this case but a vet friend of mine told me recently enough that he had fertility tested a bull who was returned due to being infertile. Bull showed up perfectly fertile in the sample the vet took & checked. This was after the bull was returned & costs paid by the seller etc. He figures the buyer took the bull home & just thought he paid too much for him.

So there's shenanigans going on out there for sure!!!

This happened a neighbour who bought a bull for 15 cows and they repeated regular and got tested and was showing infertility. Breeder said get him tested again and same infertile second time. The neighbour asked would he swap the bull to get the cows incalf and no way would he loan a bull or swap.
The up shot no cows incalf for the year and had to Ai and bull slaughtered and no standing over the bull as agreed at the sale. The breeder can not sell a bull in his own county now as his name is gone for selling a bull.

the_syco · 10-05-2019 12:02AM

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/news/courts/farmer-awarded-huge-damages-over-infertile-bull-38095254.html

She awarded the Co Galway farmer the full amount claimed, €15,826.97, a sum comprising the value of the bull after slaughter and the value of 20 calves which had not been born, assuming a 10 per cent failure rate in the herd of 22 cows.

Has the bull already been slaughtered before the trial, or am I reading this wrongly?

Limestone Cowboy · 10-05-2019 12:11AM

Sheep breeder wrote: »

This happened a neighbour who bought a bull for 15 cows and they repeated regular and got tested and was showing infertility. Breeder said get him tested again and same infertile second time. The neighbour asked would he swap the bull to get the cows incalf and no way would he loan a bull or swap.
The up shot no cows incalf for the year and had to Ai and bull slaughtered and no standing over the bull as agreed at the sale. The breeder can not sell a bull in his own county now as his name is gone for selling a bull.

I bought a bull privately a few years ago. Fairly big breeder and after a week spotted a big wart on the end of his rod...rang him and was as good as told to f**k off for myself. Had to pay the vets to remove it and had 2 calves out of him in 2 years. Poor form and he didn't send a bull up this way since.

Donald Trump · 10-05-2019 12:21AM

I'd say that the poor fella that bought Benji the gay bull is raging he didn't think of suing!

Grueller · 10-05-2019 12:30AM

Sheep breeder wrote: »

Don’t see the society’s getting involved in a private sale between two parties, they have had enough problems with animals sold under there sales. You say about buying a bull from a breeders yard to work a big change and do you not think the breeder has a part to play in having the bull ready to work as this is what the customer is buying. Most people let a bull run and scan when suits them. This bull was to work 22 cows and that is not over working. To many breeders are pushing bulls too hard on ad-lib meal and no natural development and something has to give.

He must have only herded when absolutely suited as well as scanned to not see them repeating for 5 months.

whelan2 · 10-05-2019 05:32AM

I wonder were the cows tested for lepto or anything? We bought a lim bull from a man in wexford years ago. He turned out infertile, we noticed quicker than 5 months.... He brought up another bull which he swapped with the dud.

grassroot1 · 10-05-2019 07:32AM

A semen test only test only tells you if a bull is producing fertile semen. Lots of things affect semen quality. This is only part of what a bull requires to put cows in calf. He must also be capable of performing a service on the cow to fulfil his duties.
One of the implications of this case is that a breeder is now responsible for how an animal performs in a situation outside their control.
Breeders must sell a bull they believe is fit for the job.
Buyers must take responsibility to ensure the breeders are informed in good time of any problems

patsy_mccabe · 10-05-2019 07:38AM

This Is a strange case. Is there a precedent set by this now? Is there any onus on the buyer to monitor the performance of the bull? If a bull is sold as 'untested' do the same conditions still apply?

whelan2 · 10-05-2019 07:42AM

I had a court case a few years ago luckily the judge also a woman had a farming background and understood the case. I wonder did she give any reasoning for her judgement yesterday. Or is there information we didn't hear

Anto_Meath · 10-05-2019 09:50AM

Neighbor of mine bought a bull off a lad with lots of adds on Done Deal, let him out with 20 cows after 2 months he noticed cows coming around again, got them scanned not 1 in calf, back to the breeder and was more or less told the was the purchasers problem. Eventually breeder sent his Vet to check him over and the vet confirmed he was infertile. All the breeder was willing to do was pay the difference between the slaughter price and what was paid for the bull. My neighbor contact the society as he also breeds a few pure breeds of the same breed. They more or less told him it was tough luck as bull wasn't bought at one of their sales where he would be insured against been infertile so nothing to do with them. After a number of phone calls the breeder agreed to pay an additional €500 to cover the costs of feeding the bull to slaughter. My neighbor was lucky in that he had another bull that he could run with the 20 cows, so now he has a batch of cows that are calving in May but it doesn't really matter to him as he finishes all his stock. If he hears about this case he could be talking to his solicitor.

Infertile Bull - Judge may award €16,000

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