NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

The Cush · 08-05-2019 10:42PM

On the issue of what fibre they'll use, their own or open-eir's, I assume this will now be part of their low-level detailed design for each of the 110 areas/zones?

tsue921i8wljb3 · 08-05-2019 10:46PM

The Cush wrote: »

On the issue of what fibre they'll use, their own or open-eir's, I assume this will now be part of their low-level detailed design for each of the 110 areas/zones?

Yeah, though I assume they know by now whether they can use open eir fibre or not. Low level will be where splitters, DPs etc are located.

digiman · 08-05-2019 10:59PM

Marlow wrote: »

For one off houses where you only need to reach that one house .. yes .. the calculation doesn't work there. And they may not even be serviced by fibre in the end, because even using a dark fibre strand may become too expensive.

For the bigger clusters and one off premises passed to get to these clusters, buying dark fibre strands is not economical.

Also ... the one house you are referring to .. is that maybe en route from an exchange to another cluster ?? There's always a bigger picture.

/M

For everyone's sake these need to be serviced by eirs network and taken out of the NBP. Not sure how you make them do that but anything else is a waste of money and also time and just in in-practical. It would also be in the winning bidders interest as well.

You could also look at the cost of starting your gpon network where eirs existing ftth network ends and rent a dark fibre and just use it as back haul only. There are a number of vendors who will supply a mini OLT which is hardened and waterproof and just needs power and backhaul. Needs a cost benefit analysis but could work too

Jakey Rolling · 08-05-2019 11:01PM

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

It's pretty much equidistant from the exchange in both directions. FTTH DPs within ~ 500m each side.

I'm in that exact situation, feeds from nearest exchanges terminate 5-600m either side of us. No existing telco poles so would need 5 or 6 poles installed to run aerial fibre to us. Will be interesting to see if the cost will exceed the €5000 free installation allowance....

tsue921i8wljb3 · 08-05-2019 11:02PM

Jakey Rolling wrote: »

I'm in that exact situation, feeds from nearest exchanges terminate 5-600m either side of us. No existing telco poles so would need 5 or 6 poles installed to run aerial fibre to us. Will be interesting to see if the cost will exceed the €5000 free installation allowance....

Hopefully not for your sake!

tsue921i8wljb3 · 08-05-2019 11:06PM

digiman wrote: »

For everyone's sake these need to be serviced by eirs network and taken out of the NBP. Not sure how you make them do that but anything else is a waste of money and also time and just in in-practical. It would also be in the winning bidders interest as well.

You could also look at the cost of starting your gpon network where eirs existing ftth network ends and rent a dark fibre and just use it as back haul only. There are a number of vendors who will supply a mini OLT which is hardened and waterproof and just needs power and backhaul. Needs a cost benefit analysis but could work too

I think open eir doing these one offs makes the most sense alright but will they want to play ball? I don't think they can be compelled to do them.

Headshot · 08-05-2019 11:18PM

Maybe i'm in the minority here but fair play to the Government and just going for it with the NBP.

I hate seeing Politicians playing politics with broadband as no party has a better alternative and they are just going to delay it by doing so.

My house is not part of the NBP as i'm on the Eir fibre list but i'm a firm believer that every house deserves the best possible broadband that is fibre optic. Wireless and mobile broadband is not good enough

There was never going to be a perfect plan and every plan was going to cost a bomb shell.

HoggyRS · 08-05-2019 11:21PM

BarryD2 wrote: »

Well I'd be thinking in that case that there'll need to be widespread cutting of roadside trees and ditches where these lines run. Which will draw it's own set of critics from environmental POVs. And will need regular maintenance, otherwise in a few years the normal storms will cause widespread outages. As it is Eir or OpenEir have cut back their field staff, in fact I think they may have outsourced fault fixing. All I know as a customer is that times to fix landline faults have increased substantially. The local TE or Eircom lad you'd see driving around has disappeared.

Fault repair is still in house at Open Eir. Installs are outsourced as is the majority of fibre work.

Pique · 09-05-2019 12:15AM

The Cush wrote: »

The maths of it are below, in the case of vat, it still has to be budgeted for in the Dept estimates and paid out as part of the overall subsidy payment, even if recouped later. The contingency might never be required, unlikely though over a 25 year period.

We can all say the cost to the taxpayer will be actually closer to €2bn but the Dept's annual budget estimates must take the full figure into account.

€2,970,000,000 – Total Subsidy over 25 years
€545,000,000 - Contingency or slush fund (e.g. bad weather repairs)
€355,000,000 - VAT
€2,070,000,000‬ - Cost minus contingency and VAT

It was broken down by someone on Reddit earlier in a response to this:

https://cdn-03.independent.ie/incoming/article38090830.ece/AUTOCROP/w620/NEWS-rural-broadband-cost.png

With this

https://imgur.com/a/jc1fcWo

and figures taken from https://www.dccae.gov.ie/en-ie/communications/topics/Broadband/national-broadband-plan/high-speed-broadband-map/county-maps-and-statistics/Pages/County-and-Townland-Maps.aspx

Thread (nauseus as it is) is here https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/bm47c3/a_national_broadband_ireland_nbi_plan_is_set_to/

There's a few on there who sound a lot like a few on here, tbh!

fergus1001 · 09-05-2019 12:28AM

sdanseo wrote:

But for not only the Sec Gen of the department but his entire senior staff to recommend against something, and then it to be done anyway, absolutely stinks.

the entire civil service was vehemently against rural electrification on the same grounds back in the day and I think the same thing happened with free third level education

so I'm sorry just because a civil servant says no does not mean that we cannot go ahead with it for the greater good of the country

having proper rural broadband will change this country for the better

Johnboy1951 · 09-05-2019 12:29AM

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Wireless is unsuitable for NBP purposes, it is time to accept that.

####

On the matter of what this NBP contract is likely to cost ..... €2.9 bn over 25 years.
Yet that figure includes two amounts which could easily be considered in a different light.
1. Contingency ... ~€550 ml allocated, but IF the gov have done as careful job as they would have us believe, this will not be needed to be spent.
2. VAT .... ~€350 ml ..... this does not seem to be a pay out from gov coffers but rather an amount that will not be collected, most/all of which would not be generated at all in the absence of the NBP.

So is the potential cost to the state €2 bn should things go according to plan?

If that is the case then it is difficult to know why ministers do not refer to it in place of the €3 bn figure.

The Cush wrote: »

The maths of it are below, in the case of vat, it still has to be budgeted for in the Dept estimates and paid out as part of the overall subsidy payment, even if recouped later. The contingency might never be required, unlikely though over a 25 year period.

We can all say the cost to the taxpayer will be actually closer to €2bn but the Dept's annual budget estimates must take the full figure into account.

€2,970,000,000 – Total Subsidy over 25 years
€545,000,000 - Contingency or slush fund (e.g. bad weather repairs)
€355,000,000 - VAT
€2,070,000,000‬ - Cost minus contingency and VAT

Yes, I was close enough with my approximations.

Also it was noticeable that during Wreckler's podcast
https://pca.st/22d5
the same figure was used for the gov contribution.

Which leaves me still wondering why gov ministers go along with the €3 bn figure instead of calling it €2 bn.
Will they announce at some future time that they 'saved' nearly €1 bn so as to look good?

Pique · 09-05-2019 12:43AM

€2Bn, with, what, €1Bn going to Eir for pole rental? That makes this a very cheap €6Bn deal.

The Cush · 09-05-2019 12:44AM

ED E wrote: »

Weckler has done a podcast with Peter Hendrick
https://pca.st/22d5

Very good 45min interview, couldn't imagine this being done on radio with someone like Ivan Yates.

marno21 · 09-05-2019 12:47AM

The Cush wrote: »

Very good 45min interview, couldn't imagine this being done on radio with someone like Ivan Yates.

Ivan was comparing the NBP to cable TV in the 80s being replaced with Saorview today. I think you are fairly correct there, even if Ivan is fairly well able to address most issues and take people to task over them.

The Cush · 09-05-2019 12:47AM

Pique wrote: »

€2Bn, with, what, €1Bn going to Eir for pole rental? That makes this a very cheap €6Bn deal.

The €2bn is minus VAT, so €900m or a bit less for pole and duct rental.

theguzman · 09-05-2019 12:48AM

Pique wrote: »

€2Bn, with, what, €1Bn going to Eir for pole rental? That makes this a very cheap €6Bn deal.

But but but, yadda yadda yadda free houses for useless people, HSE moneypit, money for the White Elephant Children's Hospital etc. I'm ok Jack and to hell with country people.

I personally think the NBP is the best thing we have seen out of any Govt since we saw the construction of the inter-urban Motorways.

The Cush · 09-05-2019 12:57AM

marno21 wrote: »

Ivan was comparing the NBP to cable TV in the 80s being replaced with Saorview today. I think you are fairly correct there, even if Ivan is fairly well able to address most issues and take people to task over them.

Yea, I heard his rant at the beginning of his radio show on playback earlier.

Denis Naughten did a good interview with him the evening of the announcement - https://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/highlights-from-the-hard-shoulder/just-roads-came-electricity-broadband-will-now-delivered-every-townland-ireland-will-leave-lasting-legacy-throughout-country

Pique · 09-05-2019 01:13AM

The Cush wrote: »

The €2bn is minus VAT, so €900m or a bit less for pole and duct rental.

Ok, then 20% of 1Bn makes it 800m.

Still, out of potentially 2.6Bn, (if contingency is completely used up), spending 1.2Bn on a 6Bn project isn't bad going.

Pique · 09-05-2019 01:16AM

Does nayone know, if in 5 years or whatever, if GMcC/ENet fold, after receiving like half a billion Euro or whatever of state funding, but not completing the project, who owns the network left behind?

It's not a far-fetched idea, let's be honest....

The Cush · 09-05-2019 01:28AM

Pique wrote: »

Does nayone know, if in 5 years or whatever, if GMcC/ENet fold, after receiving like half a billion Euro or whatever of state funding, but not completing the project, who owns the network left behind?

It's not a far-fetched idea, let's be honest....

IIRC, all the stuff we've listened to and read, the state will take it over.

On enet, no longer owned by GMC and now only a supplier to NBI.

tsue921i8wljb3 · 09-05-2019 01:47AM

The Cush wrote: »

Very good 45min interview, couldn't imagine this being done on radio with someone like Ivan Yates.

Not technical enough though that's to be expected when Adrian doesn't even know what a fibre cable looks like. A missed opportunity to drill down into the details.

Johnboy1951 · 09-05-2019 02:06AM

Pique wrote: »

Does nayone know, if in 5 years or whatever, if GMcC/ENet fold, after receiving like half a billion Euro or whatever of state funding, but not completing the project, who owns the network left behind?

It's not a far-fetched idea, let's be honest....

If the contractor fails to live up to their side, the gov can, at various points in the scheme, step in and take ownership.
If the contractor works to the end of the 35 years and no longer wishes to continue, the gov have the option to purchase the fibre ... not that it would be worth much to anyone except Openeir IMO.
If the contractor goes bust during the roll out then what has been done reverts to state ownership.

Marlow · 09-05-2019 03:12AM

And you trust...

Any irish government..

To do that ?

/M

BarryM · 09-05-2019 06:31AM

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

I've given plenty of technical details to this forum and hopefully helped many people along the way. I'm sick of people getting national exposure talking about things they clearly don't understand. You said yourself she was giving incorrect information and in my experience this is not the first time.

I've no interest in taking a 'tech' job in Newstalk.

I only said she had a theory, I commented on it.

Why don't you leave this thread, or at least keep your non-relevant comments to yourself.

BarryM · 09-05-2019 06:44AM

fergus1001 wrote: »

the entire civil service was vehemently against rural electrification on the same grounds back in the day and I think the same thing happened with free third level education

so I'm sorry just because a civil servant says no does not mean that we cannot go ahead with it for the greater good of the country

having proper rural broadband will change this country for the better

Well said.

Of course there is an election coming and rural TDs have had their ears bent, but...

purpleisafruit · 09-05-2019 07:23AM

The NBP will give reliable, future-proofed broadband to 1 in 4 people in the country. Whilst I don't agree with the ownership model in full, it is something that needs to be done. Most of the people we see complaining about the cost online and in the media live in areas with a multitude of broadband options. Send them all to the sticks and see if their feelings on it remain the same.
I'm 10 miles outside of Cork, there is no broadband via landline available. There is zero mobile reception. WISPs are the only option and the speed varies wildly from 0.5Mb to ~30Mb.
I'm curious to see how their services will deteriorate now that the writing is on the wall. Will they invest and become competitors at a better price point than they currently offer due to their monopoly position or will they start to wind down their consumer operations?

Nuphor · 09-05-2019 07:47AM

Does anyone have a hi res map of the initial BCPs that was mentioned? Saw a low res copy in a tweet from Gavin Reilly

Edit: Looks like that map was from a floated alternative proposal. Could be a basis for the BCP site selection, though:

https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1126129502193704961

ednwireland · 09-05-2019 07:59AM

https://m.independent.ie/opinion/comment/adrian-weckler-nationwide-broadband-service-essential-but-the-real-deal-wont-come-cheap-38094293.html
Weckler reasoned article in the indo today.

The Cush · 09-05-2019 08:31AM

Nuphor wrote: »

Does anyone have a hi res map of the initial BCPs that was mentioned? Saw a low res copy in a tweet from Gavin Reilly

No map that I could find, I assume we won't see until contracts are signed with NBI.

The only thing I could find in relation to the Broadband Connection Points was this presentation by Dr Stjohn O’Connor from the Department of Rural and Community Development to a LEADER Social Inclusion and Broadband workshop in December 2018.

Mortelaro · 09-05-2019 08:39AM

I think we are very lucky to have,no matter what your own politics,Leo Varadkar and Paschal Donohoe looking at this with the balls to take an actual go ahead and get it done decision despite overwhelming civil service opposition proposing more delay,indecision and fawning over a useless wireless 5G alternative that they’ve no experience of .

NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

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