GAA inclusion and player dignity policy (up to u12)

QuadaLumpins · 05-05-2019 3:16pm #1

Is there a specific GAA policy for player inclusion, dignity and competitiveness for children up to u12?

I’m asking as my local school brougth an u11 team to a blitz last week and the teacher played some players 100% in all 3 games while other players got less than 10 minutes. This led to a very upset little man in our house.

When challenged that teacher was very dismissive and said they have adopted a “competitiveness” approach where they will be playing the “best” players.

Surely this is wrong?

Any advice or links to official GAA policy at this age group very much appreciated.

davegilly · 05-05-2019 4:16pm

QuadaLumpins wrote: »

Is there a specific GAA policy for player inclusion, dignity and competitiveness for children up to u12?

I’m asking as my local school brougth an u11 team to a blitz last week and the teacher played some players 100% in all 3 games while other players got less than 10 minutes. This led to a very upset little man in our house.

When challenged that teacher was very dismissive and said they have adopted a “competitiveness” approach where they will be playing the “best” players.

Surely this is wrong?

Any advice or links to official GAA policy at this age group very much appreciated.

GAA games up to U12 are run as GO Games and are supposed to be fully inclusive with everyone getting equal time on the field. Easier said than done obviously but most teams I’ve been involved in try their best.

I’m not sure what the guidelines are with schools GAA though so the teacher might be correct in what he is saying. However I don’t really think there should be any competitive games at that age and it should be 100% about inclusion.

I know this doesn’t really answer your question but maybe in future get some guidelines from the school so you know where you stand before the games actually start.

QuadaLumpins · 05-05-2019 4:53pm

davegilly wrote: »

GAA games up to U12 are run as GO Games and are supposed to be fully inclusive with everyone getting equal time on the field.

Any link to this?

davegilly · 05-05-2019 6:04pm

QuadaLumpins wrote: »

Any link to this?

https://learning.gaa.ie/GAAGoGames

Seems its actually up to U11.

arctictree · 05-05-2019 7:15pm

To be fair, a lot of this is common sense. If in a blitz, you try to play as many teams as you can.
In competitive matches, it depends on the game. If its a tight game, you're hardly going to take off your strongest players. You tend to rotate the weaker ones. If your well on top, the stronger players should come off to even things up a bit.

QuadaLumpins · 05-05-2019 8:11pm

arctictree wrote: »

To be fair, a lot of this is common sense. If in a blitz, you try to play as many teams as you can.
In competitive matches, it depends on the game. If its a tight game, you're hardly going to take off your strongest players. You tend to rotate the weaker ones. If your well on top, the stronger players should come off to even things up a bit.

That is specifically against GAA guidelines. Most clubs have policies against exactly this.

theoneeyedman · 05-05-2019 8:19pm

I'm open to correction here, but AFAIK primary schools and their competitions are administered through Cumman na mBunscoil, rather than the GAA itself. Now, it's a fine line (in many ways a typical tactic of state run organisations), and in some ways a convenient one, but nonetheless a valid one. The schools competitions are just that, competitions under the auspices of Cumman na mBunscoil, and subject to their bylaws and rules, unlike games administered by the GAA, which are under GoGames rules. As I said, I'm open to correction here, so the teacher might technically be correct. Doesn't mean he didn't act like an asshat though....

Vince135792003 · 05-05-2019 8:31pm

I'm a primary teacher and have taken school teams for the last 10 years at under 11 and under 13. I would always endeavour to ensure each child plays apart in games. It can be difficult though. Unlike, a club, you could have a group of over 30 children. Some may play for the local team. Some may have never played before. Some can feel intimidated and a few minutes is about all they want until they become more confident. You can also have children with specific needs. You then have in many instances children who are not academically strong but excel in GAA. In instances like that, it is a great way of boosting children's confidence and esteem. Above all I try to be fair and the goal is that they enjoy it. As an aside, I had a parent come up to be years ago threatening to report me to my principal because I was rotating the team too much and that "I didn't know the hurt losing caused at home" to her precious daughter. It is a funny world.

GreeBo · 05-05-2019 8:33pm

arctictree wrote: »

To be fair, a lot of this is common sense. If in a blitz, you try to play as many teams as you can.
In competitive matches, it depends on the game. If its a tight game, you're hardly going to take off your strongest players. You tend to rotate the weaker ones. If your well on top, the stronger players should come off to even things up a bit.

They are 11...how competitive can it really be?

theoneeyedman · 05-05-2019 8:36pm

GreeBo wrote: »

They are 11...how competitive can it really be?

Lord blessus..... Have you been at underage games at all??? Very competitive, I can tell you, and that's just on the sidelines

db · 05-05-2019 8:42pm

Vince135792003 wrote: »

I'm a primary teacher and have taken school teams for the last 10 years at under 11 and under 13. I would always endeavour to ensure each child plays apart in games. It can be difficult though. Unlike, a club, you could have a group of over 30 children. Some may play for the local team. Some may have never played before. Some can feel intimidated and a few minutes is about all they want until they become more confident. You can also have children with specific needs. You then have in many instances children who are not academically strong but excel in GAA. In instances like that, it is a great way of boosting children's confidence and esteem. Above all you try I try to be fair and the goal is that they enjoy it. As an aside, I had a parent come up to be years ago threatening to report me to my principal because I was rotating the team too much and that "I didn't know the hurt losing caused at home" to her precious daughter. It is a funny world.

Would you treat the children the same way in the classroom? Leave the children who are a bit weaker to look after themselves and give the children who are stronger academically all the attention.

GreeBo · 05-05-2019 8:45pm

theoneeyedman wrote: »

Lord blessus..... Have you been at underage games at all??? Very competitive, I can tell you, and that's just on the sidelines

Put it another way, how competitive does it *need* to be.

Kids are mostly naturally competitive, but at 11 you dont need to be excluding some players just so the team wins some trophy. At that age you are honing your skills, not building a winning mentality.

davegilly · 05-05-2019 8:45pm

GreeBo wrote: »

They are 11...how competitive can it really be?

I helped out as a coach up to U8's last year. Packed it in this year for U9's due to the behaviour of some of the parents. Would you believe I've witnessed some parents laugh at the weaker children playing football.

That's how competitive and/or moronic some "adults" can be unfortunately.

GreeBo · 05-05-2019 8:50pm

davegilly wrote: »

I helped out as a coach up to U8's last year. Packed it in this year for U9's due to the behaviour of some of the parents. Would you believe I've witnessed some parents laugh at the weaker children playing football.

That's how competitive and/or moronic some "adults" can be unfortunately.

In most kids sports that win at all costs mentality comes from a coach or parent who was a failed player, its pathetic to watch.

Vince135792003 · 05-05-2019 8:58pm

db wrote: »

Would you treat the children the same way in the classroom? Leave the children who are a bit weaker to look after themselves and give the children who are stronger academically all the attention.

I do GAA three times a week instead of taking lunch. I do GAA after school twice a week after school. And I've done it for over 10 years for the simple reason I want as many children as possible to have a go at a game I love The benefits of it go far beyond kicking points and goals. It is also fantastic seeing a child being introduced to the game at 10 and to see them playing into adulthood. I am fair. In fact, I've had 1 complaint in all that time (from a parent who said we weren't being competitive enough and was not happy with rotation because of the upset of losing a league match caused her daughter). That might sound bonkers. It is bonkers. She even contacted my principal so it can be a strange world.

nice_guy80 · 06-05-2019 9:30am

School games are cutthroat

They are not run on Go Games format

CiarraiAbu2 · 06-05-2019 9:38am

Go games are just as competitive, if the GAA don't want them competitive than they shouldn't print tables or produce medals.

School games are always competitive.

Soulsun · 06-05-2019 9:40am

davegilly wrote: »

I helped out as a coach up to U8's last year. Packed it in this year for U9's due to the behaviour of some of the parents. Would you believe I've witnessed some parents laugh at the weaker children playing football.

That's how competitive and/or moronic some "adults" can be unfortunately.

I actually would believe it ....... some GAA clubs are run by dysfunctional people.

nice_guy80 · 06-05-2019 9:49am

Schools need less competitive games and more developmental games
Turn up, mix up all the teams and play a few small sided games

D9Male · 06-05-2019 10:08am

Fair play to the teacher earlier in the thread.

For my son's school, the junior team (U11, mainly 4th class) is run under Go Games rules. 30+ boys sign up. 5th class boys who make the senior (U13) team are excluded and the panel is rotated fully with boys playing every second game. It is great, as it allows kids who wouldn't get within an asses roar of most school teams have the experience of travelling to games on a bus and pulling on the school jersey. My son's team got hammered repeatedly, but he had great fun.

The senior team (u13) is more of a meritocracy. Squad of best 20 players in the school. Best 15 picked, but the teachers are great at giving the subs a go. They got to Croke Park. They were 10 points ahead at half time, and only hung on by a point after the bench was emptied in the second half. I was very impressed with how the teachers managed the situation.

Earlier in the year, they got complaints from 6th class parents about 5th class kids starting ahead of their sons. People will complain about anything!

D9Male · 06-05-2019 10:13am

nice_guy80 wrote: »

School games are cutthroat

They are not run on Go Games format

Yes they are.

Here is a link to forthcoming games in Dublin schools run under Go Games format.

https://www.cnmb.ie/FixturesList.asp?s=8&c=2#fixtures

D9Male · 06-05-2019 10:22am

CiarraiAbu2 wrote: »

Go games are just as competitive, if the GAA don't want them competitive than they shouldn't print tables or produce medals.

School games are always competitive.

This is also misinformed.

The GAA doesn't publish tables for Go Games in Dublin. The only medals for U11 and below are "medals for everyone" given in blitzes.

They don't want Go Games competitive and they aren't really. You get a few stupid coaches taking them seriously, but most clubs swap players if numbers are uneven, allow extra players on the pitch for the losing team, etc.

It all changes once they move to older age groups. As it should, in my view.

Bonzo Delaney · 06-05-2019 10:40am

Dammed if you do dammed if you don't for mentors/coaches in schools and Gaa club underage leagues and tournaments.

I try a mix up the team keep a core of decent players on the field at all times not the same players though and run them in and out along with the weaker ones like for like.

It's important to keep the weaker players involved as much as possible you'll need them with the club in a few years trying to make up 15 players.
Plus it's a good leveler to have weak and strong players beside each other on the sidelines and on the pitch it creates more of a team bond .
Maybe counties are different
In Kildare every player gets at least half a game including u12s.
On the other side if a school is running in a competion be it the young scientist, community games or sports tournament, you'd have to put out your best every time no questions.

nice_guy80 · 06-05-2019 12:30pm

D9Male wrote: »

Yes they are.

Here is a link to forthcoming games in Dublin schools run under Go Games format.

https://www.cnmb.ie/FixturesList.asp?s=8&c=2#fixtures

Ok.
Rest of the country say otherwise

wirelessdude01 · 06-05-2019 1:15pm

nice_guy80 wrote:

Schools need less competitive games and more developmental games

Teacher here. I tried to organise a blitz with a few other schools for just 3rd and 4th class kids on the go games model. No score taken etc and no one I spoke to were interested. Says it all.

wirelessdude01 · 06-05-2019 1:19pm

D9Male wrote:

Earlier in the year, they got complaints from 6th class parents about 5th class kids starting ahead of their sons. People will complain about anything!

I got this as well in my school. One mammy wasn't happy that her son's younger cousin was starting ahead of him in the playoffs.

Year previously I picked 4th class kids over 6th class for various reasons including the fact that they were better. 6th class parents got their knickers in a twist as previously 6th were always brought no matter whether they could kick a ball or not.

judeboy101 · 06-05-2019 1:19pm

db wrote: »

Would you treat the children the same way in the classroom? Leave the children who are a bit weaker to look after themselves and give the children who are stronger academically all the attention.

If parents put stock in school league tables, you'll have to.

QuadaLumpins · 06-05-2019 3:07pm

judeboy101 wrote: »

If parents put stock in school league tables, you'll have to.

Disappointing that parents would put higher value on GAA school league tables than inclusiveness, equity, and development.

Also, I’m surprised than some of the teachers on this thread would seem to agree with this. Its an interesting pedagogical attitude for a primary school teacher. Let’s hope they dont have this attitude, either consciously or subconsciously, in the classroom as part of their teaching practice.

Vince135792003 · 06-05-2019 3:46pm

QuadaLumpins wrote: »

Disappointing that parents would put higher value on GAA school league tables than inclusiveness, equity, and development.

I would say the majority of parents appreciate a teacher volunteering to do any after school activity and see the bigger picture. A quick thank you recognising the time you have given the children means alot too. From my experience volunteering is dropping in schools and without these teachers, sport aside from PE would not exist.

QuadaLumpins · 06-05-2019 4:05pm

Vince135792003 wrote: »

I would say the majority of parents appreciate a teacher volunteering to do any after school activity and see the bigger picture. A quick thank you recognising the time you have given the children means alot too. From my experience volunteering is dropping in schools and without these teachers, sport aside from PE would not exist.

It’s not about being appreciated by the majority of parents. It should be about doing the right thing for the child.

Stoner · 06-05-2019 4:29pm

And that's why the parents appreciate what the volunteers are doing.

The poster was not imo indulging in some self promotion or looking for thanks. You'd imagine the appreciative parents want what's right for their children. I'd agree with how it's being measured, that's reliable feedback, no need to try to paint it any other way.

Deskjockey · 07-05-2019 12:10am

D9Male wrote: »

Fair play to the teacher earlier in the thread.

For my son's school, the junior team (U11, mainly 4th class) is run under Go Games rules. 30+ boys sign up. 5th class boys who make the senior (U13) team are excluded and the panel is rotated fully with boys playing every second game. It is great, as it allows kids who wouldn't get within an asses roar of most school teams have the experience of travelling to games on a bus and pulling on the school jersey. My son's team got hammered repeatedly, but he had great fun.

The senior team (u13) is more of a meritocracy. Squad of best 20 players in the school. Best 15 picked, but the teachers are great at giving the subs a go. They got to Croke Park. They were 10 points ahead at half time, and only hung on by a point after the bench was emptied in the second half. I was very impressed with how the teachers managed the situation.

Earlier in the year, they got complaints from 6th class parents about 5th class kids starting ahead of their sons. People will complain about anything!

Same in our school, 4th and 5th class, everyone gets a good run, with all players getting good gametime but always keeping some of the core players on the pitch at every stage.

At 6th class, its the best players who play and rightly so. There is serious competition to get onto the team, and it wouldn't be fair on the lads who are hurling day in day out to see their team lose just cause the mammy of some kid who picks up a hurley once every two weeks for the afternoon off / match day wants him to get equal gametime.

The teachers don't bring kids who can't play the tin whistle to the music competition, so the school's 6th class hurling / football shouldn't be any different.

bruschi · 07-05-2019 11:21am

My own personal opinion, but there are a few posts and thoughts in here that I'd completely disagree with. It should be about inclusiveness at this age and competitiveness should not be the determining factor. Now maybe others are in different situations where clubs can afford to lose players who at 12 years old "arent good enough" but I know for myself and our club, we have to make huge efforts to keep all players going.

If a school team are training and all players make the same effort in attending training and participating, if you play a 5th class regularly over a 6th class player, then you can be 100% guaranteed that the 6th class player is just going to give up once he goes to secondary school and will be gone for good. I absolutely believe, up to that age anyway, that players up to the age should be given preference. The younger players have time on their hands to be starting games the following year, the 6th class player doesnt. It doesnt mean they cant play, but what is the important factor here? Winning or keeping participation levels up?

There is an argument that the competitive players will leave or give up if they sacrifice winning for playing other players who may be considered weaker, but there is zero evidence of this. Surely if they are competitive, that means they will work harder, not quit. Plus if they see that training and effort are defining factors of making a team, then that is a worthwhile lesson that skill does not trump effort and application.

The highest drop out in GAA participation is at age 7 to 10. Why is this happening so much at this particular age? Why do people constantly think if you dont have the basics or the ability by 12 or 13 that you are a lost cause. I know of 2 examples of players, one who never kicked a ball properly until he went to secondary school and another who was way below average when he started secondary school. By the end of 6th year, both were county minor players and both have since played over 100 competitive senior football games for their respective counties. If they werent given the equal opportunity and ability to develop in favour of better younger players, they'd have been lost for good.

They have enough competition across all grades of sports, including club GAA, they dont need to have the pressure heaped on them in every single thing they do. Obviously people have different opinions and how competitive teams should be, but similar to go games not having records results or tables to U11 and competitive games only start at U13, there is a balance to be had with it all. But there is also time on their hands. Which would a player value more important? Winning a county U13 medal or winning minor title? Which would translate more into clubs adult level?

QuadaLumpins · 07-05-2019 11:58am

@bruschi ... great post. I agree 100%.

byhookorbycrook · 07-05-2019 6:45pm

In most primary schools, any child is welcome to take part in GAA activities. Teachers give up break time or taken training after school on their own time. Cumann na mBunscol is not run under Go Games rules in most counties and the panel numbers are strictly limited.

Yes, schools do play their best squad in the senior competition. In this case, the subs got a run, maybe not as much as they wanted, but I'm sure other children didn't get to go at all, because it's just not possible to do this logistically with one teacher.

nice_guy80 · 09-05-2019 9:56am

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Teacher here. I tried to organise a blitz with a few other schools for just 3rd and 4th class kids on the go games model. No score taken etc and no one I spoke to were interested. Says it all.

yeah.
it needs to be policy from on high for it to get going around the country
I see too many kids not wanting to play on school teams

nice_guy80 · 09-05-2019 9:57am

bruschi wrote: »

My own personal opinion, but there are a few posts and thoughts in here that I'd completely disagree with. It should be about inclusiveness at this age and competitiveness should not be the determining factor. Now maybe others are in different situations where clubs can afford to lose players who at 12 years old "arent good enough" but I know for myself and our club, we have to make huge efforts to keep all players going.

If a school team are training and all players make the same effort in attending training and participating, if you play a 5th class regularly over a 6th class player, then you can be 100% guaranteed that the 6th class player is just going to give up once he goes to secondary school and will be gone for good. I absolutely believe, up to that age anyway, that players up to the age should be given preference. The younger players have time on their hands to be starting games the following year, the 6th class player doesnt. It doesnt mean they cant play, but what is the important factor here? Winning or keeping participation levels up?

There is an argument that the competitive players will leave or give up if they sacrifice winning for playing other players who may be considered weaker, but there is zero evidence of this. Surely if they are competitive, that means they will work harder, not quit. Plus if they see that training and effort are defining factors of making a team, then that is a worthwhile lesson that skill does not trump effort and application.

The highest drop out in GAA participation is at age 7 to 10. Why is this happening so much at this particular age? Why do people constantly think if you dont have the basics or the ability by 12 or 13 that you are a lost cause. I know of 2 examples of players, one who never kicked a ball properly until he went to secondary school and another who was way below average when he started secondary school. By the end of 6th year, both were county minor players and both have since played over 100 competitive senior football games for their respective counties. If they werent given the equal opportunity and ability to develop in favour of better younger players, they'd have been lost for good.

They have enough competition across all grades of sports, including club GAA, they dont need to have the pressure heaped on them in every single thing they do. Obviously people have different opinions and how competitive teams should be, but similar to go games not having records results or tables to U11 and competitive games only start at U13, there is a balance to be had with it all. But there is also time on their hands. Which would a player value more important? Winning a county U13 medal or winning minor title? Which would translate more into clubs adult level?

the biggest drop out is after U14 in most clubs

bruschi · 09-05-2019 10:13am

nice_guy80 wrote: »

the biggest drop out is after U14 in most clubs

I had thought the same, the transition from primary to secondary. I had also thought that from minor to adult would be up there, but apparently not going by research concluded by the GAA. It somewhat makes sense, most kids at 5 or 6 give GAA a go, or all sports at their disposal really. Many go up to the pitch, maybe a few times and then just not bother again. For a multitude of reasons, child not liking it, parents not prepared to give the time, transport logistics, whatever.

So this is the biggest drop out, whether you consider counting kids who dont give it a proper go or not is another thing, but at the same time, they do go and they arent retained, so it causes the biggest "drop out" numbers.

slingerz · 13-05-2019 7:11pm

bruschi wrote: »

I had thought the same, the transition from primary to secondary. I had also thought that from minor to adult would be up there, but apparently not going by research concluded by the GAA. It somewhat makes sense, most kids at 5 or 6 give GAA a go, or all sports at their disposal really. Many go up to the pitch, maybe a few times and then just not bother again. For a multitude of reasons, child not liking it, parents not prepared to give the time, transport logistics, whatever.

So this is the biggest drop out, whether you consider counting kids who dont give it a proper go or not is another thing, but at the same time, they do go and they arent retained, so it causes the biggest "drop out" numbers.

you have a high drop out rate from 7-10 as you have parents putting their child into all sorts of activities to try and find the one for them. We all know of times spent in gynamstics, rugby, piano lessons that they'd rather be doing anything but. By the time they reach 10 they will have voiced their dislike for an activity and have dropped out.

GAA inclusion and player dignity policy (up to u12)

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