Gardai to travel on trains and buses to tackle anti social behaviour

thomasj · 29-04-2019 8:24am #1

Good news.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/gardai-to-travel-on-public-transport-to-tackle-anti-social-behaviour-920688.html

thomasj · 29-04-2019 8:28am

I've mixed views on this . While I rather see a transport police setup so that much needed resources aren't taken off an already stretched public service for this, it is good to see some action being taken on this increasing problem

gozunda · 29-04-2019 8:35am

thomasj wrote: »

I've mixed views on this . While I rather see a transport police setup so that much needed resources aren't taken off an already stretched public service for this, it is good to see some action being taken on this increasing problem

If used properly - it doesnt have to take resources off any other area tbh.

The Gardai could regularly use public transport whilst on duty. City centre for example they can move from area to area using public transport and still maintain a presence on the street.

With scumbag anti social activity - that they know that Gardai may be present will hopefully be enough to make them at least think twice.

It's definitely a step in the right direction.

whisky_galore · 29-04-2019 9:25am

Likewise mixed views.

It seems to be a thing here that Gardai announce a "blitz" on speeding, drink or drug driving or whatever and after the "blitz" is over it's back to business as usual.

_Kaiser_ · 29-04-2019 9:45am

whisky_galore wrote: »

Likewise mixed views.

It seems to be a thing here that Gardai announce a "blitz" on speeding, drink or drug driving or whatever and after the "blitz" is over it's back to business as usual.

That's what I expect will happen here. Week or two of visibility, then back to normal.

Would agree that a seperate transport police would be a better long term solution to what is an ongoing issue across the bus/rail network.

whisky_galore · 29-04-2019 10:21am

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

That's what I expect will happen here. Week or two of visibility, then back to normal.

Would agree that a seperate transport police would be a better long term solution to what is an ongoing issue across the bus/rail network.

It's come to a point where scumbags (aka the most vunerable in society) feel they can take the piss with transport staff and other passengers and get away with it.

I think a separate force will do little good than the existing set up with habitual scum as the velvet glove justice system, free legal aid, unending multiple convictions and the arrah shur god love them attitude will still be there.

Emme · 29-04-2019 11:41am

Good luck to them finding a standing space on any of the evening trains out of Heuston.

PhilOssophy · 29-04-2019 11:52am

Needs dedicated transport police like everywhere else. Can be plain clothed until trouble starts if needed.

It'd quickly end a lot of the trouble/inconsiderate behaviour that goes on on our public transport.

sharper · 29-04-2019 1:21pm

To me this seems similar to the issue of Gardai enforcing the rules of the road i.e. for the most part, they don't and won't.

When there's a push to create a force dedicated to policing anything the Gardai resist it and then "blitz" until the problem passes out of public attention. Then they return to the status quo.

It's not entirely unlike when Dublin Bus bus would scale up services on routes with private competition. They don't want to provide the service but they don't want anyone else doing it either.

devnull · 29-04-2019 2:54pm

Doesn't cut it for me I'm afraid. Need a dedicated transport police if you ask me.

Thrashssacre · 29-04-2019 2:55pm

It’s a start, that’s all I’m gonna say.

Calltocall · 29-04-2019 3:01pm

It’s a start but I think dedicated transport police are required long term particularly on Luas, of the previous ten trips I’ve taken on Luas I would say 7/10 there have been incidents of anti social behavior with no intervention from any security presence, I would avoid Luas all together if I had the option.

Thrashssacre · 29-04-2019 3:02pm

Calltocall wrote: »

It’s a start but I think dedicated transport police are required long term particularly on Luas, of the previous ten trips I’ve taken on Luas I would say 7/10 there have been incidents of anti social behavior with no intervention from any security presence, I would avoid Luas all together if I had the option.

That’s what I’m hoping, If the police find themselves busy on public transport it’ll force them to have to consider a separate transport police so that they can cover there normal duties too.

Ashleigh1986 · 29-04-2019 3:05pm

Gardai actually doing something ???
What a load of crap .
What they will do is put it out in the media that they are going to be on buses and trains .
Will we ever know how many buses and trains ??? No for operation purposes .... Blah blah blah ....
They're the greatest waste of space in Irish society and when you look at the Catholic Church/ gaa / political parties etc etc that's saying something !!

PhilOssophy · 29-04-2019 3:06pm

Maybe if you have free travel you should lose it if you are found guilty of anti-social behaviour...?

neris · 29-04-2019 3:09pm

Cant imagine the Garda unions allowing a separate transport police to go ahead, suits them to have generally scumbaggery so they can mouth off about pay, the minister, pay, resources, pay, etc etc pay

Utter Consternation · 29-04-2019 3:39pm

Lovely double time on a Sunday.

Stephen15 · 29-04-2019 5:16pm

Would the idea of a dedicated transport really work in practicality. I could see a transport police working in the likes of large stations such as Hueston, Connolly and Busaras which are easier to patrol and it would be viable to have a couple of officers stationed. You could also have a few based on the DART and the Luas.

But I couldn't see it being workable for such a force to be able to respond to 999 calls that would probably have to remain in the hands of the Gardai as there would likely only be within Dublin a unit based in the city centre and outside of Dublin in larger towns and cities. For example it would be a lot quicker for local Gardai to respond to stone throwing in Jobstown than a dedicated transport police based in Connolly station at least in theory.

XPS_Zero · 29-04-2019 6:47pm

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Maybe if you have free travel you should lose it if you are found guilty of anti-social behaviour...?

There should be a Transit Police witth their own tribunal system, not one that can send you to prison, but can decide to ban you from public transport for a period, or for good, issue steep fines, and to cancel your tickets or passes, they can even have a DSP representative on it (if they can get over their work shy attitude at the department)

With the facial recognition software easily available in CCTV now it's easy to enforce such a ban.

suicide_circus · 02-05-2019 8:17am

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Maybe if you have free travel you should lose it if you are found guilty of anti-social behaviour...?

consequences for ones actions is an axiom which does not apply to the most vulnerable in society.

StereoSound · 02-05-2019 3:57pm

This a terrific news, I hope it's not a assignment that will last a few weeks and then its over for good. It should be a regular thing. Hope this makes a gang of African heritage teenagers I seen on the train a few months back roaring at other passengers to think twice before making trouble.. People were afraid to saying anything back to them incase they were accused of being "racist" or something.

dashcamdanny · 03-05-2019 12:58pm

Had uniformed Garda on my bus last week. One upstairs and one down.

Pointless IMO. How that is going to stop the brain dead morons from lobbing a brick at the window is beyond me.

XPS_Zero · 03-05-2019 1:15pm

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Had uniformed Garda on my bus last week. One upstairs and one down.

Pointless IMO. How that is going to stop the brain dead morons from lobbing a brick at the window is beyond me.

What do you suggest they do?

Smiles35 · 03-05-2019 1:57pm

Nice proactive measure. Loads of scrotes preparing for their trips to Courtown and the like. Catch a few and pull them in off the streets.

Del.Monte · 03-05-2019 2:06pm

XPS_Zero wrote: »

What do you suggest they do?

Plain clothes gardai would be innovative but I suppose they are too busy falsifying stats to be bothered with enforcing the law.

Stephen15 · 03-05-2019 4:39pm

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Had uniformed Garda on my bus last week. One upstairs and one down.

Pointless IMO. How that is going to stop the brain dead morons from lobbing a brick at the window is beyond me.

To stop people causing trouble on the bus surely. I think DB should deploy security at certain times on certain routes like on the Luas not for every route just the ones where there's regular trouble like the 13, 27, 40 and 77a.

Jamie2k9 · 03-05-2019 4:46pm

IE will be launching a text service for anti social behaviour like the Luas.

Crock Rock · 03-05-2019 4:48pm

It's good to see a Garda precence on public transport, but taking Gardaí off the street is not a good idea.

It'll give more work to already overworked and underpaid Gardaí.

We should have a dedicted transport police.

Stephen15 · 03-05-2019 4:59pm

I saw two Gardai on the platform of Blackrock DART Station there a few weeks ago at about 9.30 at night I think there was a match in the Aviva on the night so it may have been to do with that they boarded a northbound DART think it was my first time ever seeing Guards routinely patrolling public transport.

XPS_Zero · 03-05-2019 5:51pm

The ideal would be a transit police , I don't see why we can have an airport police which is basically one type of transport police, but not a full transit police.

Then have them deployed in a pattern where they can get as quick as possible to an incident reported via the text system.

That would be the best way.

Unfortunately it won't work without radical reform of our justice system. I'm honestly shocked that I'm the only one i see in political circles who brings this up, it's a major issue with the public who get red angry when they see casual suspended sentences and life not meaning life (and we've no real rehab or restorative justice system either as an alternative to custodial for non violent crime so instead just let people off). But you never hear it discussed, ever.

The third ideal part of such a system would be that for aggressive behavior on the train (or anywhere) that does not rise to the level of actual physical harm the scrotes get thrown in solitary confinement for 30 days with nothing to stare at except the walls, no tv, maybe one book at a time, an hour of exercise a day and meals brought to the cell. We can attach rehab and restorative justice measures to the end of it before the system is finished with them, then there are actual consequences. Each time you have a new offense your time doubles and you lose privileges. Second time you lose even the book to distract yourself. Third time it's 2 meals a day instead of 3. Fourth time it's one. Fifth time your hour of exercise is 30 minutes.

These scrotes laugh at the system because it's become so normal to them, they are not afraid of it anymore, they just go to a place with free room and board where they don't have to work and get to use a gym and play games and read and hang out...if we changed that, and made them face their victims through restorative justice it would mean actual consequences which might make them hesitate the next time.

Corca Baiscinn · 03-05-2019 8:17pm

gozunda wrote: »

The Gardai could regularly use public transport whilst on duty. City centre for example they can move from area to area using public transport and still maintain a presence on the street.

It's definitely a step in the right direction.

Not just while ON duty though, Garda could kill a lot of birds with one stone here. In Germany I believe police in uniform can travel free on P/T so gardai on the way to or from work in stations could use P/T and solve the double parking issues at Pearse and Kevin Street;)

Then on-duty Gardai monitoring anti-social behaviour could also monitor mobile phone use in cars as some UK forces do from buses. you're up high and view is good.

So all in all a great idea if actually implemented, just struck me I've never seen an identifiable garda on a bus or train.

john boye · 03-05-2019 8:29pm

Corca Baiscinn wrote: »

Not just while ON duty though, Garda could kill a lot of birds with one stone here. In Germany I believe police in uniform can travel free on P/T so gardai on the way to or from work in stations could use P/T and solve the double parking issues at Pearse and Kevin Street;)

Then on-duty Gardai monitoring anti-social behaviour could also monitor mobile phone use in cars as some UK forces do from buses. you're up high and view is good.

So all in all a great idea if actually implemented, just struck me I've never seen an identifiable garda on a bus or train.

I used to see gards on buses regularly enough but I think they were usually just heading back to the station.

XPS_Zero · 03-05-2019 9:38pm

Corca Baiscinn wrote: »

Not just while ON duty though, Garda could kill a lot of birds with one stone here. In Germany I believe police in uniform can travel free on P/T so gardai on the way to or from work in stations could use P/T and solve the double parking issues at Pearse and Kevin Street;)

Then on-duty Gardai monitoring anti-social behaviour could also monitor mobile phone use in cars as some UK forces do from buses. you're up high and view is good.

So all in all a great idea if actually implemented, just struck me I've never seen an identifiable garda on a bus or train.

Even if it's not official policy, they could do that now. All they'd have to do, even in civilian clothes, is flash their badge and they'd be waved through without a second thought. Perhaps they should be encouraged to do this.

Nobody at IE is going to stand in their way and demand they buy a ticket.

Stephen15 · 03-05-2019 10:24pm

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Even if it's not official policy, they could do that now. All they'd have to do, even in civilian clothes, is flash their badge and they'd be waved through without a second thought. Perhaps they should be encouraged to do this.

Nobody at IE is going to stand in their way and demand they buy a ticket.

I think maintaining a visible uniformed presence is better than a plain clothes presence as it would act as a reassurance to regaualr passengers and a deterrent to scum.

PhilOssophy · 04-05-2019 9:09am

Stephen15 wrote: »

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Even if it's not official policy, they could do that now. All they'd have to do, even in civilian clothes, is flash their badge and they'd be waved through without a second thought. Perhaps they should be encouraged to do this.

Nobody at IE is going to stand in their way and demand they buy a ticket.

I think maintaining a visible uniformed presence is better than a plain clothes presence as it would act as a reassurance to regaualr passengers and a deterrent to scum.

Why not have both?

XPS_Zero · 04-05-2019 2:12pm

My thinking with plain clothes officers is that skangers are more likley to do something with them around, then get caught, an d taken out of circulation for a while.

Whereas if they have a uniform there, they won't do anything on that train but will just get off and do something on the next one.

Stephen15 · 04-05-2019 2:31pm

XPS_Zero wrote: »

My thinking with plain clothes officers is that skangers are more likley to do something with them around, then get caught, an d taken out of circulation for a while.

Whereas if they have a uniform there, they won't do anything on that train but will just get off and do something on the next one.

Whether you have police officers or not on board the vast majority of trips will pass off without incident. People have preconceptions and believe what they hear in th media etc. but the likelihood is nothing will happen to them despite their preconceptions. Having uniformed police officers on board will help make people feel safer while using public transport.

XPS_Zero · 04-05-2019 4:41pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Whether you have police officers or not on board the vast majority of trips will pass off without incident. People have preconceptions and believe what they hear in th media etc. but the likelihood is nothing will happen to them despite their preconceptions. Having uniformed police officers on board will help make people feel safer while using public transport.

It's not just that the majority are ok, it's all at specific time slots and mostly north of Connolly station, so we should be targeting those times and places.
They can also have a separate CCTV team watching those hot spots and a rapid response unit ready to move to a location where someone is being hassled or intimidated.

Doing this for PR is a waste of money, the resources should be targeted where they can do the most good and we should learn from experience

The broken windows policy / zero tolerance is mostly a statistics scam but it does get one thing right, if they get away with smaller things it makes them bolder and leads to bigger things, it's human nature to push boundaries, if we can make a big response out of it when they are intimidating people then we can make them think going further than that will get an even worse response.

All this is possible there is just no will there to do it cos the people in charge of making these decisions at senior management and politicos are never on public transport at night in those dodgy areas.

Stephen15 · 04-05-2019 9:02pm

Fair enough targeting specific services and areas which are known for trouble with plain clothes Gardai. I was thinking more for everyday more routine stuff I would prefer they had a uniformed presence.

The fear of crime and anti social or nuisance behaviour is something that puts people off using public transport so having a uniformed presence would act as reassurance to those passengers and encourage them to use public transport and act as a deterrent to potential troublemakers. Remember preventing crime happening in the first place is better than bringing people to justice after the crime has been committed.

PhilOssophy · 08-05-2019 12:02pm

Nothing wrong with having a mix of both. If you don't know who the cop is on the bus, are you likely to cut up? As somebody said above, target the known problem spots as a starting point.

Sierra Oscar · 08-05-2019 3:49pm

gozunda wrote: »

The Gardai could regularly use public transport whilst on duty. City centre for example they can move from area to area using public transport and still maintain a presence on the street.

I can't see that working out in practical terms though. Gardaí patrol areas based on the district they are assigned to, and in the City Centre alone Connolly Station, Tara Street, Pearse Street and Grand Canal are all in different districts so you will not have Gardaí travelling between these stations on regular patrol. You defiantly won't have Gardaí travelling from one end of the line to another on regular patrol. If they aren't specifically directed to patrol public transport between districts then it won't happen.

Personally I think we should see a dedicated Garda unit for policing public transport services, similar to the Roads Policing Unit. If such a unit is created then their 'regular beat' could consist entirely of patrolling public transport stations and in and around stations / platforms.

Sam Russell · 08-05-2019 7:31pm

We already have two police forces for transport.

1: The Airport police.

2: The Dublin Harbour Police Force and also The Dún Laoghaire Harbour Police

So why not a Transport Police Force?

They would need the legal power of arrest, and require the support of the Gardai to prosecute.

Stephen15 · 08-05-2019 9:46pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

We already have two police forces for transport.

1: The Airport police.

2: The Dublin Harbour Police Force and also The Dún Laoghaire Harbour Police

So why not a Transport Police Force?

They would need the legal power of arrest, and require the support of the Gardai to prosecute.

Cost I would assume would be the main reason all are very small compared to the resources that a transport police would require on the scale of the BTP for example. The harbour police in Dun Laogahire afaik are little more than glorified clampers with powers of arrest and detention which I have yet to hear of them using.

A police force separate to Gardai would cost serious amounts of money which the state, the NTA or CIE simply do not have. It would be a wasteful duplication of Garda resources if you ask me a Garda transport unit would be cheaper to set up and have the same desired effect as a separate police force.

Del.Monte · 08-05-2019 9:54pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Cost I would assume would be the main reason all are very small compared to the resources that a transport police would require on the scale of the BTP for example. The harbour police in Dun Laogahire afaik are little more than glorified clampers with powers of arrest and detention which I have yet to hear of them using.

A police force separate to Gardai would cost serious amounts of money which the state, the NTA or CIE simply do not have. It would be a wasteful duplication of Garda resources if you ask me a Garda transport unit would be cheaper to set up and have the same desired effect as a separate police force.

If it's not an entirely separate unit they will be used for all sorts of things as manpower in other areas is needed.

Sam Russell · 08-05-2019 11:05pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Cost I would assume would be the main reason all are very small compared to the resources that a transport police would require on the scale of the BTP for example. The harbour police in Dun Laogahire afaik are little more than glorified clampers with powers of arrest and detention which I have yet to hear of them using.

A police force separate to Gardai would cost serious amounts of money which the state, the NTA or CIE simply do not have. It would be a wasteful duplication of Garda resources if you ask me a Garda transport unit would be cheaper to set up and have the same desired effect as a separate police force.

Del.Monte wrote: »

If it's not an entirely separate unit they will be used for all sorts of things as manpower in other areas is needed.

There is a division of the Gardai - Pads Policing - that is tasked with what it says on the side of the car. It could be similar to setup a version for Transport Policing - providing what is required to improve safety and convenience for passengers.

It needs to be afforded/

.

dashcamdanny · 11-05-2019 1:46pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

To stop people causing trouble on the bus surely. I think DB should deploy security at certain times on certain routes like on the Luas not for every route just the ones where there's regular trouble like the 13, 27, 40 and 77a.

I will be honest here Stephen. I very rarely have any trouble inside the bus.

Its the little knackers outside that are the problem. Attacked this week again with stones. As normal , teenagers in tracksuits, hoods and masks in these so call poor deprived areas that need a bus.

What we need is more staff cars. I think the ones we have hide somewhere. Apparently they are out there doing something.

Or just pull the buses out for at least a week. And let the community deal with its own rubbish.

Hal3000 · 11-05-2019 1:50pm

Sub headline - judges to consider the stress of travelling as mitigating factor for crimes committed on public transport

Stephen15 · 12-05-2019 1:36am

dashcamdanny wrote: »

I will be honest here Stephen. I very rarely have any trouble inside the bus.

Its the little knackers outside that are the problem. Attacked this week again with stones. As normal , teenagers in tracksuits, hoods and masks in these so call poor deprived areas that need a bus.

What we need is more staff cars. I think the ones we have hide somewhere. Apparently they are out there doing something.

Or just pull the buses out for at least a week. And let the community deal with its own rubbish.

So is it rare that passengers give verbal and/or physical abuse to drivers and/or other passengers or you pick up undesirable passengers who by their actions such as taking drugs or drinking alcohol make other passengers feel uncomfortable. Not myself but I believe this makes certain passengers feel uncomfortable using public transport but then again drivers may not see this as they are focusing on the road.

I've heard on UK based bus forums perhaps you can confirm or deny this is the case in Dublin that certain drivers are quite happy whenever a bus getting stoned as in many cases this means a trip back to the garage and often an early night off for the driver who falls victim.

Also what do suggest staff cars do to prevent trouble surely that's the job of the Gardai not DB.

whisky_galore · 12-05-2019 6:01am

I don't think a transport police will ever happen or a permanent improvement in existing Garda presence as long as law enforcement is funded on a shoestring.
On the off chance that transport police are set up, you can be sure it will be an Aldi bargain bucket half arsed effort.

dashcamdanny · 12-05-2019 3:14pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

So is it rare that passengers give verbal and/or physical abuse to drivers and/or other passengers or you pick up undesirable passengers who by their actions such as taking drugs or drinking alcohol make other passengers feel uncomfortable. Not myself but I believe this makes certain passengers feel uncomfortable using public transport but then again drivers may not see this as they are focusing on the road.

I've heard on UK based bus forums perhaps you can confirm or deny this is the case in Dublin that certain drivers are quite happy whenever a bus getting stoned as in many cases this means a trip back to the garage and often an early night off for the driver who falls victim.

Also what do suggest staff cars do to prevent trouble surely that's the job of the Gardai not DB.

Yes, there is drugs and lots of drink consumed . But I dont think Garda will make on bit of difference to that. Just walk down the board walk on the quays any dry day of the week. Junkies and drunks set up camp from morning to night there and not a word is said to them by passing Garda.

I can not confirm or deny what anyone else says .
Buses will get pulled out of an area for the night is an attack happens after 7. From my experience these attacks often happen late and on your last lap.

Now instead of going home, you have to drop disgruntled passengers to the next stop, which could be in the middle of the bad area, and wait for a mechanic. We are not allowed to bring the bus in as the broken glass could fall on someone or something. Then there is all the paper work as well. Not to mention the danger to driver and passenger as well.
Other drivers may be happy only because they dont have to go near these rough areas for the rest of the night if it happens to one. Could you really blame them for that?

Staff cars are a visible deterrent and stay parked close by. They may have a Garda in them also.

Kermit.de.frog · 12-05-2019 3:54pm

Sad to see despite the years of warnings about anti social behaviour, the lack of punishments and reprimands for parents and instigators and the city's drug problem we end up in the inevitable slide toward what is only now being described correctly as a crisis.

This was all said for years and the authorities did nothing, allowed the situation to get worse and now here we are.:(

I don't have a solution because I think it's too late. The justice system is to blame and I don't see any reform there.

There was a long winded documentary on the situation in Seattle recently. They are further down the road of the same issues Dublin has - failure to prosecute criminal and delinquent behaviour, tolerance of drug abusers, lax revolving door justice system and police not able to cope.

It's worth a watch seeing what happens to a city when this is allowed to continue unchallenged.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpAi70WWBlw

Gardai to travel on trains and buses to tackle anti social behaviour

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