Has Sonia got it right about hyperandrogenism?

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

While this is widely assumed to be true, nobody but her doctors and herself knows for sure, and it's nobody else's business.

Just because she is an athlete at the highest level does not make her body public property, and some of the stuff that gets written and speculated about her is a gross violation of her privacy.

Red Lightning wrote: »

Caster Semenya is being treated horribly imo. She was born a woman and should be allowed to compete as a woman.

I'll leave it this as this is one of those futile type debates which is impossible to have any reasonable discussion on without getting hinted as a bad person.

You are both wrong. Caster Semenya is intersex and was conceived as a genetic male. Her chromosome profile is 46XY confirmed by the CAS hearing and herself, something I know no one here has actually read due to misinformation being spread here as anyone who has read it knows the implications of the findings as they are quite clear. There is no speculation on the matter and emotional rhetoric does nothing but shutdown debate on the topic at hand. A debate that huge implications on society and sport as a whole.

Red Lightning wrote: »

Not to sound crude but was she born with a vagina or a penis? If she has a vagina, she should be allowed to compete with the women. Sounds simplistic but that would be my opinion.

I posted this earlier but deleted it as I didn't want to get into an argument but I'll leave it here just to clear up some things as I think it's important to inform in the best way we can from our understanding. I will preface this post with the warning that I am not an expert in this particular domain but I have a background in plant biology and that this is my watered down remidial knowledge interpretation of the science in this case which will not cover the huge complexities of intersex biology. I apoligise if anyone sees this as crass but it is unavoidable in this discussion if anyone wants to gain an understanding of the case. Science may seem cold and distant but that is what makes it the best arbitrator in emotionally charged debates.

Here's what I wrote

This isn't a direct response to your question but I think this is relevant to this discussion so we have to go with what we know here.

She is karotype 46 XY(a typical male chromosome profile). Someone who is 46 XY is conceived as a male but where it gets complicated is that in the very early stages of development in the womb, we are all female until the Y chromosome triggers androgen response in males. If the the androgen response is weak or the foetus has a degree of insensitivity to androgen, it stunts development of male sexual organs and characteristics depending on the degree of response. This leads to a situation where the female reproductive system is still present from the earlier development of all foetuses(we all start out as women) and the male organs do not develop fully either. For some depending on the extent, that can mean very little ambiguity that may never be noticed and does not inhibit male sexual reproduction or it can mean being born with external female charactheristics as the development of male reproductive systems never developed externally. Some people in the later scenario can be infertile and cannot impregnate while others can but never naturally. Someone with a karotype 46 XY can never get pregnant though as they possess a male XY profile and not a female XX profile that is necessary for full development of female reproductive organs.


On a slight tangent here but that one piece of information about Caster Semenya's chromosome profile tells a lot and can clear up a lot of misconceptions floating around about this case and the IAAF handling of it. It means we can get can make a lot of very accurate assumptions now and it clears up a lot of stuff.

Pre-2004, Caster Semenya would have been completely banned from female competition for having a 46 XY profile. The reason 2004 is important is because that is the year which the IAAF gave leeway to MtF trans athletes to compete in the female division under certain criteria on hormone profiles and suppression of testosterone levels. They must have had an oh sh!t moment when they carried out that infamous gender test in 2009 and the result came back as 46 XY(a profile only present in genetic males) so in effect, had to abide by the criteria laid down for inclusion of MtF trans athletes who also shared that karotype which required hormone suppression. Semenya's case is a lot more ambiguous than MtF trans and some will say it is unfair to put her in the same category but if they gave her leeway to compete without hormone suppression, they would have set a dangerous precedent where all 46XY athletes would be able to do the same(This includes MtF trans athletes and biological males without any changes) where identity would rule the roost and anyone who identified as female would be allowed to compete. 

The actual issue that is present now is a direct relation of the IAAF giving trans athletes leeway to compete in the women's division because if they used chromosome profiles as the only demarcation, Caster Semenya would've been banned long ago for having a typical male chromosome profile.

Candamir wrote: »

Not to sound crude either, but a penis is just a clitoris that has been exposed to high levels of testosterone. That’s a really bad way to decide who competes where.

If a women goes on high dose testosterone, she grows a penis?

Women dossed up on hard roids like Trenbolone etc that raise test can have a surprise downstairs?