Patrick Quirke -Guilty

Atoms for Peace · 03-05-2019 08:02AM

MintyMagnum wrote: »

I thought there was blood found in her house?

AFIK It was the blood of a fly.

03-05-2019 08:06AM

Vicarious Function wrote: »

I don't think the body was ever in the van. I believe Bobby R. (R.I.P.) was killed as he came out of Mary Lowry's house at approx 6.30 ba.m. by Quirke who was waiting for him. The slurry tank is on M. Lowry's farm, so the body would not have to be transported anywhere. I imagine Quirke would have had a selection of machinery, for instance somethng like a forklift. Using something like that, it wold be simple enough to move the body into the run-off tank. He must have had access to fairly good machinery as he would have had to lift the concrete covers off the tank in order to get the body in there. After all, he had access to a suction machine and slurry spreader, which are fairly heavy machinery. IMO, he could even have used one of those machines in committing the murder.

Why didn't he move the body at some time afterwards? That's what I can't understand.

bigpink · 03-05-2019 08:12AM

Wonder was he friendly with a local guard

bigpink · 03-05-2019 08:14AM

Also was the body intact or just bones when found

fepper · 03-05-2019 08:16AM

Neyite wrote: »

There is some evidence that he planned ahead and was quite meticulous. If you had planned ahead you would have time. It was 9.30am before someone next saw him I think. He knew that Friday mornings was good for privacy as Lowry brought her MIL shopping directly after the school run. So no one was at home. Silage bales were on top of the tank it seems so the Gardai would not have seen any signs of the tank. So lets say that you put the silage there a few weeks before, then the night before you move them, open up the tank, park your own car in the woods, walking back to the farm. At 6.30am you knock the victim unconscious, then put him into the tank ensuring that you've landed more blows to ensure he is dead. The victim would bleed out into the tank mostly. You move the van to the woods, drive back in your own car, replace the slab and move the silage bales back in place over the tank. You'd easily have that done in three hours, I'd say?

quirke could purposely have met him that morning when Ryan left the house and ask him to help him with something in the farmyard maybe even moving the slab on tank and then incident happened there,no dragging body around the yard leaving evidence,close tank there and then.

03-05-2019 08:16AM

Neyite wrote: »

There is some evidence that he planned ahead and was quite meticulous. If you had planned ahead you would have time. It was 9.30am before someone next saw him I think. He knew that Friday mornings was good for privacy as Lowry brought her MIL shopping directly after the school run. So no one was at home. Silage bales were on top of the tank it seems so the Gardai would not have seen any signs of the tank. So lets say that you put the silage there a few weeks before, then the night before you move them, open up the tank, park your own car in the woods, walking back to the farm. At 6.30am you knock the victim unconscious, then put him into the tank ensuring that you've landed more blows to ensure he is dead. The victim would bleed out into the tank mostly. You move the van to the woods, drive back in your own car, replace the slab and move the silage bales back in place over the tank. You'd easily have that done in three hours, I'd say?

In that case he moved the van without leaving a trace of his own DNA or blood. The fact he left no DNA of himself suggests he didn't move the van, or wasn't in it - as not leaving any DNA is virtually impossible. There was unidentified DNA in it however.

Where the victim was killed should have been covered in blood, and surely trained dogs would have found it. Why didn't they use a corpse finding dog in this case? It would have found the body.

Something still doesn't smell right to me about this case. Maybe he had an accomplice - or paid someone else to do it?

Bob Harris · 03-05-2019 08:17AM

He's going to appeal anyway. Be a fool not to.

Sajid Javid · 03-05-2019 08:42AM

I know it is not really a crime but to find two people that are overly interested in the problem page in the sindo and happen not only to know each other but (well we kind Know the rest) Mary is introducing another bloke to this Problem page
Quirky makes a recording of Mary and her new fella discussing an Agony Aunt Letter. Strange Kink especially when the The Sun is only 1.10 on a Sunday and contains a proper problem page and comes with a t.v supplement for the week and all the sport results I suppose we will never know the rational.

03-05-2019 08:52AM

MintyMagnum wrote: »

I thought there was blood found in her house?

No. Forensics showed nothing more than fly faeces.

Boggles · 03-05-2019 09:02AM

bigpink wrote: »

Also was the body intact or just bones when found

The fire brigade had to get him out of the tank on their own. The pathologist wouldn't travel to the scene to advise or make a preliminary, which I think is odd.

I remember reading his arm or his leg fell off when trying to get him out of the tank.

The fire brigade do not get enough credit for what they have to do, which is seldom fight fires, they should be called The Every Job No one Else will do Brigade.

bigpink · 03-05-2019 09:04AM

Boggles wrote: »

The fire brigade had to get him out of the tank on their own. The pathologist wouldn't travel to the scene to advise or make a preliminary, which I think is odd.

I remember reading his arm or his leg fell off when trying to get him out of the tank.

The fire brigade do not get enough credit for what they have to do, which is seldom fight fires, they should be called The Every Job No one Else will do Brigade.

Would it last intact that long?

Candamir · 03-05-2019 09:07AM

bigpink wrote: »

Would it last intact that long?

You could do a google search to see.

No. Wait. That might not be such a good idea.

Boggles · 03-05-2019 09:11AM

bigpink wrote: »

Would it last intact that long?

Depends on the conditions.

realdanbreen · 03-05-2019 09:35AM

Well that prime time programme was some waste of an hour.
Nothing that anyone who had been following the case didn't knows already, and sending yer man over to England to interview the insect expert, wtf!

MrMusician18 · 03-05-2019 09:38AM

Muahahaha wrote: »

Theres definitely an element of condescending reporting towards rural Ireland by the largely Dublin based media. Its like they are shocked that people actually have sex in rural Ireland. They got especially giddy when it came out that Mary Lowry had three different partners within three years. So fcuking what, they must be even more shocked to learn that some people have three different partners within a week :rolleyes:

Was it a crime of passion or a crime for land? I think it is a mix of both, he needed to be with Mary Lowry to eventually manipulate her into giving him the land. He was already leasing it at a pittance of a rent, his next move was to legally acquire it and for that to happen he needed to be in a relationship with her.

It is not until today that I realised that at least 50% of his motivation to kill was because of land. Quirkes mother was on Joe Duffy and said that before her husband died they discussed his will with a solicitor. From that discussion she had understood that she was being left the family home to live in for the rest of her days and that Patrick was getting the family farm. Upon Quirke Snr death it transpired in the will that Patrick was to get both the farm and the family home.

Now how did that happen? I'm thinking he manipulated his father into changing the will, I;m sure there is a backstory there as to why Quirke Snr. basically left his wife up sh1t creek, she could not use the home against nursing home fees because she didnt own it despite her contributing to the mortgage for decades. Patrick owned it and her coming onto national radio today spoke volumes of how she felt she got shafted by her own husband and her own son.

Get what you're saying and like your thinking about him having his car in the woods overnight to do a switch about with the van. Your theory also explains why there was no DNA or blood found in the van, because Ryan was never in it after the murder, he was moved straight away to the tank But-

-Did Quirke drag the body all the way from Lowrys house to the tank? How far was it, sounds like a huge struggle to do so and blood must be dripping everywhere all the way to the tank
-On the tank, yes easily hidden by bales of silage but inside the milking parlour there has to be a drain with a pipe leading into the tank, no? Surely an investigator would be asking where does that drain pipe end up, etc.
-Car park at the woods- the van was found very quickly so did the Gardai do an analysis of tyre marks. Woodland car parks are often just dirt patches, if Quirke had left the woods in his own car only an hour or two previous then the tyre marks might be fresh and not dusted over?

Defintely possible to do it within three hours. And if it was as pre-meditated as it seems then all this thinking out would have been done by him over many weeks before the murder.

This wouldn't have been that unusual in a farming family. The son would often be left the entire estate to farm, but a condition of the will would be that the surviving wife would be allowed to remain in her home.

This all predated the likes of the "fair deal" scheme. It's illegal to leave your wife out of your will now though.

freshpopcorn · 03-05-2019 09:44AM

realdanbreen wrote: »

Well that prime time programme was some waste of an hour.
Nothing that anyone who had been following the case didn't knows already, and sending yer man over to England to interview the insect expert, wtf!

Those programs are generally a load of rehashed news.
The crime journalists love them because they keep them in a job.

monkeybutter · 03-05-2019 10:01AM

Muahahaha wrote: »

Ive often thought about the dynamic in jury delibrations. As you say a certain type of person is likely to put themselves forward to be the foreman. Its likely this person is good at public speaking, good at convincing others of their argument. They might be a manager in their job, have leadership attributes, etc. All of which begs the question that if the foreman believes a suspect is not guilty do they have the opportunity to influence just two other jurors of the same in the jury room. Is there a court clerk in the jury room taking notes of everything that is said by each person? And if so do the barristers for each side get to see those notes and argue if it was a 'fair' deliberation or point out that one juror had an undue influence on other jurors. So many questions

Not an easy job but still do-able I think. If the tank was full of slurry then pump it out and spread the slurry. Then go down and get your hands dirty, perhaps chopping the body into five or six parts and then burying it elsewhere on the farm using the tractor as a digger. Cover with grass seed and when thats grown then its unlikely it would ever be found by the next farmer to take over the lease. When you think of it Quirke had basically gotten away with murder for almost two years despite being the main suspect. He was obviously not in the right frame of mind when he decided to call Gardai rather than move the body himself. He took a look at the body 11 days before the 'discovery' so it must of been at that point he decided he didnt have the stomach to move it. Bizarre decision, I can only imagine he was losing his sanity on what to do and he wasnt thinking straight.

Agree with this, it was nowhere near as explosive as the Graham Dwyer trial, that had it all, every day of that trial something new came out and every day you were in shock of what went on. I mean even the most sexually liberal of us had never heard of a fetish where you have sex with someone and stab them at the same time. If a fiction writer wrote it you wouldnt believe it.

I think you are over thinking it

Been on 2 juries, perhaps city center location ups the chances of being called? I have also watched the film 'Run Away Jury', so am a bit of an expert. Each time, none of the people were really interested in even being there, most cases before the courts are banal, DOB suing someone again etc, so the Foreman was basically selected on the basis someone had to be.

It wasn't a slurry tank, the reality is he probably killed yer man in a fit of rage, then had to deal with the consequences. Most people can't handle that part, they can't sustain the mentality, it's normal, death freaks people out. That's why he did the minimum to hide it in the first place. It's why some people leave bodies in mountains to rot and eventually be found.

The reality of it is too much for them

monkeybutter · 03-05-2019 10:03AM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Those programs are generally a load of rehashed news.
The crime journalists love them because they keep them in a job.

John Manlove, he gets around

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGjvSvoZDWs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYaXw8TZEvs

Bob Harris · 03-05-2019 10:06AM

monkeybutter wrote: »

It wasn't a slurry tank, the reality is he probably killed yer man in a fit of rage, then had to deal with the consequences. Most people can't handle that part, they can't sustain the mentality, it's normal, death freaks people out. That's why he did the minimum to hide it in the first place. It's why some people leave bodies in mountains to rot and eventually be found.

The reality of it is too much for them

I doubt it was a fit of rage. Sounds like it was fairly premeditated.
I do agree that he lost his nerve though. It was get the body out himself which didn't appeal or he went for the double bluff. He could have just left it there and
it may well have been years if ever it was discovered.

monkeybutter · 03-05-2019 10:12AM

Jesus joe duffy podcasts and the agony aunt article, internet searches

we live in a different time

stealing his own mothers home, what a turd, your own child

Neyite · 03-05-2019 10:14AM

Muahahaha wrote: »

Get what you're saying and like your thinking about him having his car in the woods overnight to do a switch about with the van. Your theory also explains why there was no DNA or blood found in the van, because Ryan was never in it after the murder, he was moved straight away to the tank But-

-Did Quirke drag the body all the way from Lowrys house to the tank? How far was it, sounds like a huge struggle to do so and blood must be dripping everywhere all the way to the tank
-On the tank, yes easily hidden by bales of silage but inside the milking parlour there has to be a drain with a pipe leading into the tank, no? Surely an investigator would be asking where does that drain pipe end up, etc.
-Car park at the woods- the van was found very quickly so did the Gardai do an analysis of tyre marks. Woodland car parks are often just dirt patches, if Quirke had left the woods in his own car only an hour or two previous then the tyre marks might be fresh and not dusted over?

Defintely possible to do it within three hours. And if it was as pre-meditated as it seems then all this thinking out would have been done by him over many weeks before the murder.

The lack of an actual crime scene is problematic for sure. The milking shed was not in use, and almost every shed constructed to hold animals have a gutter with a hole in the wall for effleunt to drain off or get hosed out. For some farms or smaller sheds it's just a hole and a bit of a soakaway outside. It's possible that if there was no longer milking equipment there and maybe used for storage then it wouldn't even occur to the Gardai to check for tanks.

Add into that, they were investigating a missing persons, not a potential murder. I don't know how the Gardai differ in investigating either but I don't think that they do a forensic examination for a missing person unless something isn't really adding up. Plus the woods where the car was found probably led Gardai in the wrong direction deliberately.

Nekarsulm wrote: »

One point all the non-farmers on here should consider.
You cannot move silage bales twice.
Wherever they are placed when they are made in the summer, thats where they stay untill you use them in the winter.
The plastic wrapping is too delicate, and would be ruined.

Ok scrap my idea of moving the silage bales prior to the murder so. I didn't know that.

Weltsmertz wrote: »

Excellent explanation. If he planned it he had time.
The 10-15 min delay Mary noticed would have been enough to attack Bobby Ryan and temporarily hide the body. He then drove car to woods. Possibly I thought of was that he threw a bicycle in the back and cycled back. Once back at the farm had nearly two hours to move body to tank and clean up while farm was deserted as Mary was away Friday mornings. Body was never in car and Bobby Ryan may not even have been killed iniatially only incapicatated.

The bike theory is a good one. Better than mine of moving his own car there beforehand.

Sheep breeder wrote: »

Great theory, but major fault surely he had a job getting the man to walk to the tank or carry a body to with out leaving a trace.
The local plod messed up big time. First like your theory above if he moved bales on to the tank the ground would show vehicle tracks and a country copper should see question the reason why and the parlour would suggest a tank.
Second if killed on the farm there had to be blood at the scene.
Third it seems the local plod did not take this very serious in the start and when the body was found it seems to have being a real mess with the state investigator not turning up and trying to take the body out.
The case in rathfarnham graham Dwyer would not have being solved only the young Garda in roundwood done his job when he found the bags in the reservoir

This murder was all about quirke getting free milk from the cow and when this stopped he was not happy.

As above, the lack of a crime scene is very strange but if they were only half-investigating a missing person then a quick cover up of any potential scene could easily have been missed. Then Quirke had 2 years to fully erase any traces of the scene. Best I can guess is that he lured Ryan away from the house to the murder site, but where that might be I'd have no idea. Any new sheds or outhouses built that don't predate when Ryan went missing I wonder?

nice_guy80 · 03-05-2019 10:17AM

Bob Harris wrote: »

I doubt it was a fit of rage. Sounds like it was fairly premeditated.
I do agree that he lost his nerve though. It was get the body out himself which didn't appeal or he went for the double bluff. He could have just left it there and
it may well have been years if ever it was discovered.

his lease was probably up on the farm land and he was worried the body would be discovered by whoever took over

Bob Harris · 03-05-2019 10:22AM

nice_guy80 wrote: »

his lease was probably up on the farm land and he was worried the body would be discovered by whoever took over

I imagine that was a concern for him and a very likely motive for alerting the Gaurds to it but a bit of time could have passed before someone took over the farm and it's not guaranteed it would ever be found.

LETHAL LADY · 03-05-2019 10:23AM

There's rumours in the area that Quirke didn't actually get his hands dirty. Whether or not there's any truth in those rumours remains to be seen.

monkeybutter · 03-05-2019 10:26AM

the details were all in the prime time docu last night, it was all about the tank, only a short distance to it, no investigator would be looking at drain in the unused milking parlor for clues

I no doubt believe he was pissed he was going to lose the lease, but the letter he sent in is surely an insight of itself

He was never going to get the land period, he'd have had to divorce the wife, lose his own farm and then what married her? The lease was over due to his mad behaviour, so killing him wasn't going to change that as shes moved on past him anyway after

cocokabana · 03-05-2019 10:27AM

Vicarious Function wrote: »

I don't think the body was ever in the van. I believe Bobby R. (R.I.P.) was killed as he came out of Mary Lowry's house at approx 6.30 ba.m. by Quirke who was waiting for him. The slurry tank is on M. Lowry's farm, so the body would not have to be transported anywhere. I imagine Quirke would have had a selection of machinery, for instance somethng like a forklift. Using something like that, it wold be simple enough to move the body into the run-off tank. He must have had access to fairly good machinery as he would have had to lift the concrete covers off the tank in order to get the body in there. After all, he had access to a suction machine and slurry spreader, which are fairly heavy machinery. IMO, he could even have used one of those machines in committing the murder.

I watched the Primetime programme last night. It said the AI woman thought it very odd that Patrick Quirke was still milking cows at 9.30am. Usually he was finished by then. Did the Guards not ask his wife Imelda, what time did he leave the house that morning or what time did he usually head out, did she hear his jeep leaving the yard?

Was it usual for him to go over to Mary Lowry's farm before he milked his cows? Also, if Mary Lowry heard Bobby Ryan's van go over the lazy gates, then she should have heard a jeep/car come in, unless Patrick Quirke parked on the road & walked up. Alot of questions unanswered.

cocokabana · 03-05-2019 10:30AM

LETHAL LADY wrote: »

There's rumours in the area that Quirke didn't actually get his hands dirty. Whether or not there's any truth in those rumours remains to be seen.

I'm from a farming background not a million miles from Bancha & heard locally that there was a Polish farm labourer who went back to Poland after this and took his own life sadly. Whether there's any truth I don't know but I'm sure Guards would have investigated this line of inquiry.

realdanbreen · 03-05-2019 10:30AM

realdanbreen wrote: »

When the guy is in the dock at the beginning of the trial the jury do not know if he is guilty or not guilty. Based on the evidence that the prosecution presented there is no way that they now know that he is guilty.

What I posted previously above still stands. Most guys who live a normal busy lifestyle don't end up on jurys so you are being judged by 10 people, most of whom have nothing better to be doing, are nosey, or are not smart enough to avoid being there.

monkeybutter · 03-05-2019 10:31AM

LETHAL LADY wrote: »

There's rumours in the area that Quirke didn't actually get his hands dirty. Whether or not there's any truth in those rumours remains to be seen.

far fetched, roping in outside help ends in tears, especially if you don't move in the right circles, and even getting someone reliable if you do is near impossible

If he had outside help, you think they would have left the body on the farm to be found?

The beating he gave him indicates a rage attack, he absolutely beat the head off him, cracked ribs etc

Then he had to deal with it, and he bottled it

most do

LETHAL LADY · 03-05-2019 10:32AM

cocokabana wrote: »

I'm from a farming background not a million miles from Bancha & heard locally that there was a Polish farm labourer who went back to Poland after this and took his own life sadly. Whether there's any truth I don't know but I'm sure Guards would have investigated this line of inquiry.

You would hope so anyway.

Patrick Quirke -Guilty

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