"Book readers" - Season 8 Episode 3 "The Long Night" - Spoilers post 2 forward

jonsnow · 01-05-2019 08:54AM

EagererBeaver wrote: »

She has to die because of the prophecy.

Her death at the hands of anyone other than Jaime or (less fulfilling but I'd accept it, Tyrion) would be complete and utter bollocks.

if the latest episode has established anything its that D and D couldn't care less about any prophecy and them making any sense. The whole reason that D and D took on the series in the first place was the red wedding twist. Its apparent that this is what they really love - setting up the audience for one of their "surprises" (and the nastier the better):rolleyes: and to hell with logic.

It actually doesn't really bother me that they are doing this because its not going to ruin the books big moments for us now. It pretty clear in the novels that some combination of dany, jon and bran will take down the WW. Aryas arc doesnt seem to point in that direction at all - but in TV world shes "cool" and apparently "its obvious that she should be the one" (even though it isn't at all)

jonsnow · 01-05-2019 09:10AM

paulbok wrote: »

Did they ever speculate in the show on just how big the NKs army was?
Think they may have mentioned it after capturing the wight last season, 100,000 is in my head but it looked like multiples of that last night.

100000 at least is what dany said about the battle of the frozen lake in Kings Landing. There was also supposed to be 100000 dothraki - who should have been enough to defeat the army of the dead on their own but clearly there was a lot more given that they wiped them out in 3 minutes. This doesnt make any sense given that the gift is very lighly occupied and as soon as the wall was breached bran saw it and sansa ordered everyone to fall back to winterfell - but rule of cool I guess.

01-05-2019 09:14AM

I fail to see how a mounted cavalry charge, of renowned open plain fighters, failed to have the smallest impact on the NK army. Fine they ran into a giant but it's one giant. Other than that they should have been mowing into them like the Rohirrim, through Orcs, in the charge to Minas Tirith.

The NK army were shown to only be useful in a swarm, not like they had organised pike defences.

Daith · 01-05-2019 09:17AM

EagererBeaver wrote: »

She has to die because of the prophecy.

Her death at the hands of anyone other than Jaime or (less fulfilling but I'd accept it, Tyrion) would be complete and utter bollocks.

The series has gone out of its way to show that prophecies are "tricky things". Mel spent most of her time believing that Stannis was the chosen one.

Necro · 01-05-2019 09:19AM

Deleted User wrote:

I fail to see how a mounted cavalry charge, of renowned open plain fighters, failed to have the smallest impact on the NK army. Fine they ran into a giant but it's one giant. Other than that they should have been mowing into them like the Rohirrim, through Orcs, in the charge to Minas Tirith

Possibly because they're undead? Not sure if the Dothraki got or would even consider taking dragon glass weapons tbh.

I think that people need to stop comparing the undead army to a traditional one.
It's been established that they don't stop, or get tired. They smashed down Hardhome's walls and just kept on coming after all.

They wouldn't even need to kill the Dothraki, but the horses would be overwhelmed by sheer numbers is my thinking. Similar to what happened with Drogon later in the episode.

Mokuba · 01-05-2019 09:22AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I fail to see how a mounted cavalry charge, of renowned open plain fighters, failed to have the smallest impact on the NK army. Fine they ran into a giant but it's one giant. Other than that they should have been mowing into them like the Rohirrim, through Orcs, in the charge to Minas Tirith.

The NK army were shown to only be useful in a swarm, not like they had organised pike defences.

Lucky that Melisandre showed up to light their arakhs on fire too. Bit odd that they were originally on the frontline with fairly ineffective, bordering on useless weapons. Almost like they read the script and knew Mel was coming to treat everybody to a nice visual.

01-05-2019 09:29AM

Necro wrote: »

Possibly because they're undead? Not sure if the Dothraki got or would even consider taking dragon glass weapons tbh.

Good job that they had lit arakhs so

Necro wrote: »

I think that people need to stop comparing the undead army to a traditional one.
It's been established that they don't stop, or get tired. They smashed down Hardhome's walls and just kept on coming after all.

They are also quite soft and uncoordinated. They are not a solid mass with which to stop several tonnes of rushing horse charge. It has nothing to do with them being tired. Yes the fact that they can take the horse hit and get back up would not stop the fact that the cavalry would wash over them (while killing them, with fire) in the first place.

Necro wrote: »

They wouldn't even need to kill the Dothraki, but the horses would be overwhelmed by sheer numbers is my thinking. Similar to what happened with Drogon later in the episode.

The dragon was swarmed because it was a stationary large target. Try grabbing onto a war horse running by at 30-40 mph.

Look the cavalry was doomed to fail, it was meant to take out huge numbers before being overwhelmed. They had no chance of "breaking" the enemy through fear, as they would a normal enemy BUT they would have made a huge dent in the NK lines, not blink out in a moment or two.

If the horde were that strong then there was no way at all, ever, don't even thing about it chance of the one-to-one fighting would be survivable in the courtyard and elsewhere.

fitz · 01-05-2019 09:31AM

Daith wrote: »

The series has gone out of its way to show that prophecies are "tricky things". Mel spent most of her time believing that Stannis was the chosen one.

Exactly this. Here's the prophecy about Cersei:

"And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

Valonqar translates as little brother. Doesn't mean her little brother.
Could be the Hound, could be Jon, as a brother of the nights watch...
Can't assume anything about what the correct interpretation of it is.

Necro · 01-05-2019 09:36AM

Deleted User wrote:

If the horde were that strong then there was no way at all, ever, don't even thing about it chance of the one-to-one fighting would be survivable in the courtyard and elsewhere.

That was kind of proven to be the case with everyone smashed up against the walls hopelessly at the end.

I think they depicted the undead army very well tbh. Their sheer numbers obliterated the Dothraki and the Unsullied, two of the most feared forces in both the books and the series.

I accept there are legit military tactical flaws in the way the army set up to defend Winterfell, but then again who knows how any force would react to a screaming army of undead

jonsnow · 01-05-2019 09:38AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I fail to see how a mounted cavalry charge, of renowned open plain fighters, failed to have the smallest impact on the NK army. Fine they ran into a giant but it's one giant. Other than that they should have been mowing into them like the Rohirrim, through Orcs, in the charge to Minas Tirith.

The NK army were shown to only be useful in a swarm, not like they had organised pike defences.

They can bring their ranged bow weapons to fight lannister infantry but not an undead army??

paulbok · 01-05-2019 09:40AM

With regards to Arya being the one to kill the NK, it makes more sense when you think of her time training as a Faceless Man.
When she killed Meryn Trant, she was punished for taking a life that wasn't supposed to be taken. Jaquen, gave her 3 kills for saving him.
The Many Faced God/God of Death that they serve sees death as a gift to the suffering, etc so would see the genocide of the NK as an abomination, hence Arya being trained by them to serve that God's purpose.

I do admit to being one who found there being so many main character survivors when a lot of they should have been killed in battle, but I believe that is a set up to have them be killed unexpectedly next episode in classic GoT fashion.

01-05-2019 09:44AM

Necro wrote: »

That was kind of proven to be the case with everyone smashed up against the walls hopelessly at the end.

Except that they were slowly overwhelmed (much like the Dothraki should have been). Either the Dothraki would have been fighting far longer OR a harry and retreat, with large numbers returning.

It was done to look cool and have a Worf effect (and followed up with Unsullied) but, like much in this episode, it was lacking substance.

Necro · 01-05-2019 09:53AM

Deleted User wrote:

It can't be all to do with having no source material to adapt from. Even after a few rewatches, I still adore the Battle of the Bastards episode which is not ripped from the books. Think back to the final fight between Jon and Ramsay, the build-up for the whole episode to those few moments, the work involved to actually get to Ramsay beyond his army and the Winterfell gates, the sacrifice of Wun-Wun the giant, the tension and anticipation as Jon advances on Ramsay who is shooting arrows at him from close-range in the Winterfell courtyard, the satisfaction and pay-off when Jon finally gets his hands on Ramsay. Because of the build-up and previous events in the show, someone like Jon or Theon had to get that particular moment with Ramsay for maximum story resolution and effect. Then...when Sansa gets to release the hounds on Ramsay and actually kill him, remember that satisfaction and pay-off? It was pretty much perfect. The producers/Kit Harrington explained on 'Inside The Episode' why Jon stopped punching Ramsay to death and looked up at Sansa - It was Sansa's kill to make, not Jon's. Imagine though if it were Brienne or a shadow-baby from the Red Woman who slipped in to the kennels to kill Ramsey, and not Sansa. That's sort of how I feel about Arya and the Night King.

Well, here's the thing Stu - the battle itself was actually fine by most accounts. The main complaints I can see are (lighting aside) that not enough main characters died, and Arya killing the NK.

The battle itself was depicted very well again and even by your own admission the ending is the part that annoys you a bit.

That part is all on GRRM I'm afraid imo. He built an amazing world for 5 books, full of characters and scheming, and they have been depicted by the show for the most part as I would have pictured it in my own mind.

But here's the crux of the issue: hes shafted everyone out of the literary ending as hes a ridiculous faffer. There are supposedly two books left to be released, and this saga has been in literary form since 96, 23 years ago.

To expect TV writers to establish a satisfactory ending to everyone given that background is in my opinion unreasonable and a little unfair.

I don't look at it as the writers shafting the fans, I look at it as GRRM sitting in his mansion listening to the South Park Weener song on repeat and doing nothing to give us some closure. I don't think he has a clue how to write his way out of the dead ends some of his plot points were heading down.

Lady Stoneheart.
The fake Targaryen in Essos.
The Dorne situation which is so vastly different (but equally as facile) as the series.

Deleted User wrote:

I'm still looking forward to the last 3 episodes and there will be enjoyment to be had, but my interest in seeing GRRM finish these books has been reignited in the aftermath of The Long Night. It's as if the Red Woman laid her hands on it and said a decade of the R'hllor rosary.

Yeah look I'd love to see the books conclusions too but I actually dont believe that it's going to happen at this point. And that it will likely be upsetting to some book readers is all down to Martin in the end.

EagererBeaver · 01-05-2019 09:55AM

paulbok wrote: »

With regards to Arya being the one to kill the NK, it makes more sense when you think of her time training as a Faceless Man.
When she killed Meryn Trant, she was punished for taking a life that wasn't supposed to be taken. Jaquen, gave her 3 kills for saving him.
The Many Faced God/God of Death that they serve sees death as a gift to the suffering, etc so would see the genocide of the NK as an abomination, hence Arya being trained by them to serve that God's purpose.

I do admit to being one who found there being so many main character survivors when a lot of they should have been killed in battle, but I believe that is a set up to have them be killed unexpectedly next episode in classic GoT fashion.

There isn't a God of Death, the many faced God is death itself.

"Death as a gift to the suffering" is merely one of its faces. Murder is another, e.g. Arya killing the dodgy money lender.

leggo · 01-05-2019 10:34AM

I was getting in arguments on the Non-Book thread, and got really busy, so took a day. I listened to a podcast on the way home from work (which was praising the episode but did take issue with certain parts) that brought up a really good point and, when you read back a lot of the criticisms, it explains a lot:

Basically they spoke about how people hate endings, especially in the likes of GoT and Lost that encourage theorising (Last Jedi got this treatment too), because it's the point where fans have to surrender their own relationship with the show and accept that it doesn't belong to them. It's not our show. We're not in charge. We're just the audience, sitting in the dark with only a passive part to play in any decision-making, although these franchises do encourage us to think we have a bigger part so are maybe complicit in their own criticism in that respect. It's Benioff and Weiss' show, it's not even GRRM's story to tell anymore as he had 8 years to get off his hole and write an ending and couldn't. There was nothing stopping him, I'm sure B&W would've appreciated the assist as they could've just changed anything they didn't like anyway. And they deserve to tell the ending they like: they were the one's who passed GRRM's test and convinced him that this story he specifically said he wanted to make unadaptable for screen would be worthwhile. They gained his trust enough that he surrendered the ending to the story that made him rich, famous and significant and agreed that they could tell it if he couldn't first. They're bigger fanboys than all of us guys, none of us did that.

People wanted more deaths, less darkness, the NK to win or someone else to kill him, more answers to the mythology, and so on...read that list. Is that a criticism of what actually happened or being angry that what YOU wanted to happen didn't? Read it again. It's the latter. None of us have any right to make those decisions!

I get where people are coming from, I do. I felt the same immediately after episode 1 of this series. I felt the same about Arya killing the NK for about a minute after the show ended until I started to think about it more. I left the cinema after Last Jedi unsure if I loved or hated what I'd just seen (I love it now). But, like I've said elsewhere, I always take a while (it helps watching GoT late that I literally have to sleep on it straight afterwards) to process and let go of my own hopes then judge it on its own merit, as someone else's story that I really have no right to dictate. And I come away liking it more often than not.

With S8E1 for example, I had waited two years for a new episode of GoT: I wanted blood, fire, tits and dragons, all of it. But that's also not what the show has given me with premieres, ever. It's always a catching up with the gang episode and setting the table, and I did enjoy seeing them all again and getting advancement on the last episode, so I had to say that I enjoyed the episode and my disappointment was based on my own unreasonable expectations. When I let go of them, I was happy!

Last week, I was mentally preparing myself to say goodbye to Brienne, Jaime, Greyworm, Jorah, Pod, the lot of them. Then when all of that didn't happen I felt a bit "oh". Then I slept on it and realised I rather like Brienne, Jaime and Pod and I tend to not want to see people I like die, and I really liked how they totally faked me out with Greyworm and made someone not dying seem unpredictable. That I felt completely tense throughout the episode and happy with the conclusions it came to (Jon being convinced he's the hero and has to end it all himself, then getting pinned down to the point that all he could do was scream at a ****ing dragon, only for Arya to save the day, still cracks me up tbh). That I'll always remember watching that episode in much the same way I'll remember my experiences of watching Ned dying, The Red Wedding, Oberyn/The Mountain, Hardhome, BoB and Loot Train. I'm not saying it was as good as those episodes, I try not to rank art (unsuccessfully sometimes, it's just a fun thing to do), but the viewing experience was legitimately of similar enjoyment to me.

Paddy Cow · 01-05-2019 11:09AM

Necro wrote: »

I just find it a shame that the show has to take the blame for Martin's failings as a writer.

A million times this. I'm sick of reading how "the quality has dipped since they went off the books". Who's to blame for no more books? The last two books weren't great either. He went off on a tangent and created too many story lines. At least with the show we'll get an ending. Might not be to everyone's liking but I doubt the books will ever be finished.

Tazzimus · 01-05-2019 11:25AM

Paddy Cow wrote: »

A million times this. I'm sick of reading how "the quality has dipped since they went off the books". Who's to blame for no more books? The last two books weren't great either. He went off on a tangent and created too many story lines. At least with the show we'll get an ending. Might not be to everyone's liking but I doubt the books will ever be finished.

I re-read them recently before the show started and the last two are an absolute slog to get through, was almost glad when I got to the end.
There's some good bits in there, but a **** ton of ****e as well.

01-05-2019 11:30AM

I've not read the books but it seems odd to blame the failings of the writers of the show on the writer of the books.

I mean you can give out he didn't finish the books (yet ever) but you cant really blame him for a poorly written show. That blame should lay soley on the actually writers

Necro · 01-05-2019 11:38AM

Deleted User wrote:

I mean you can give out he didn't finish the books (yet ever) but you cant really blame him for a poorly written show. That blame should lay soley on the actually writers

Well the thing is that the last few seasons have been comprised from notes as opposed to fully fleshed out novels.

So understandably the world created isn't going to be as full blooded as the original series given the work hasnt even been finished yet.

And it's not poorly written imo. It's of less quality than seasons 1-3, correct. But I blame Martin for not finishing the books (as I believe he stated he would do before the show's conclusion) to allow the show to adapt it in similar fashion.

That blame is squarely on his shoulders.

Triceratops Ballet · 01-05-2019 11:39AM

leggo wrote: »

I was getting in arguments on the Non-Book thread, and got really busy, so took a day. I listened to a podcast on the way home from work (which was praising the episode but did take issue with certain parts) that brought up a really good point and, when you read back a lot of the criticisms, it explains a lot:

Basically they spoke about how people hate endings, especially in the likes of GoT and Lost that encourage theorising (Last Jedi got this treatment too), because it's the point where fans have to surrender their own relationship with the show and accept that it doesn't belong to them. It's not our show. We're not in charge. We're just the audience, sitting in the dark with only a passive part to play in any decision-making, although these franchises do encourage us to think we have a bigger part so are maybe complicit in their own criticism in that respect. It's Benioff and Weiss' show, it's not even GRRM's story to tell anymore as he had 8 years to get off his hole and write an ending and couldn't. There was nothing stopping him, I'm sure B&W would've appreciated the assist as they could've just changed anything they didn't like anyway. And they deserve to tell the ending they like: they were the one's who passed GRRM's test and convinced him that this story he specifically said he wanted to make unadaptable for screen would be worthwhile. They gained his trust enough that he surrendered the ending to the story that made him rich, famous and significant and agreed that they could tell it if he couldn't first. They're bigger fanboys than all of us guys, none of us did that.

People wanted more deaths, less darkness, the NK to win or someone else to kill him, more answers to the mythology, and so on...read that list. Is that a criticism of what actually happened or being angry that what YOU wanted to happen didn't? Read it again. It's the latter. None of us have any right to make those decisions!

I get where people are coming from, I do. I felt the same immediately after episode 1 of this series. I felt the same about Arya killing the NK for about a minute after the show ended until I started to think about it more. I left the cinema after Last Jedi unsure if I loved or hated what I'd just seen (I love it now). But, like I've said elsewhere, I always take a while (it helps watching GoT late that I literally have to sleep on it straight afterwards) to process and let go of my own hopes then judge it on its own merit, as someone else's story that I really have no right to dictate. And I come away liking it more often than not.

With S8E1 for example, I had waited two years for a new episode of GoT: I wanted blood, fire, tits and dragons, all of it. But that's also not what the show has given me with premieres, ever. It's always a catching up with the gang episode and setting the table, and I did enjoy seeing them all again and getting advancement on the last episode, so I had to say that I enjoyed the episode and my disappointment was based on my own unreasonable expectations. When I let go of them, I was happy!

Last week, I was mentally preparing myself to say goodbye to Brienne, Jaime, Greyworm, Jorah, Pod, the lot of them. Then when all of that didn't happen I felt a bit "oh". Then I slept on it and realised I rather like Brienne, Jaime and Pod and I tend to not want to see people I like die, and I really liked how they totally faked me out with Greyworm and made someone not dying seem unpredictable. That I felt completely tense throughout the episode and happy with the conclusions it came to (Jon being convinced he's the hero and has to end it all himself, then getting pinned down to the point that all he could do was scream at a ****ing dragon, only for Arya to save the day, still cracks me up tbh). That I'll always remember watching that episode in much the same way I'll remember my experiences of watching Ned dying, The Red Wedding, Oberyn/The Mountain, Hardhome, BoB and Loot Train. I'm not saying it was as good as those episodes, I try not to rank art (unsuccessfully sometimes, it's just a fun thing to do), but the viewing experience was legitimately of similar enjoyment to me.

I think we listened to the same podcast! and I agree, we all watch the show differently, and different aspects of the show resonate with us, we all project what we want on to someone elses creation and get annoyed when what we want doesn't happen, or when other people want different outcomes that don't go along with our expectations.
Essentially we're all watching different shows, the show I want is more concerned with Westerosi politics and intrigue, I don't really give a flying f about what was happening beyond the wall, the NK never resonated with me as a villain, I didn't care about him so for me his death and defeat was the thing to get out of the way so the show could go back to being good, for loads of other people the show is the NK and the WW so his death seems ridiculous and abrupt.
We're also watching a different show now than we were 7 seasons ago, the show has changed, it's become simpler, the writing isn't as good, it plays more things for humour, like to enjoy the show, you kind of have to let go of your book /S01-S03 expectations cos it simply isn't that show anymore. George wanted to tell a wide and expansive story that you could lose yourself in but that won't always translate to TV so we were always going to lose something, even moreso when he hasn't finished the story and just has an idea of how he wants it to end. As necro said that's hardly the fault of Weiss and Benihoff! they're not fantasy writers (clearly) they're TV show runners

01-05-2019 11:44AM

Necro wrote: »

Well the thing is that the last few seasons have been comprised from notes as opposed to fully fleshed out novels.

So understandably the world created isn't going to be as full blooded as the original series given the work hasnt even been finished yet.

And it's not poorly written imo. It's of less quality than seasons 1-3, correct. But I blame Martin for not finishing the books (as I believe he stated he would do before the show's conclusion) to allow the show to adapt it in similar fashion.

That blame is squarely on his shoulders.

Poorly was probably the wrong choice of word tbf but again you just can't blame him if others weren't up to doing thier jobs as good as him.

Necro · 01-05-2019 11:56AM

Deleted User wrote:

Poorly was probably the wrong choice of word tbf but again you just can't blame him if others weren't up to doing thier jobs as good as him.

I look at them as two separate entities nowadays. Seasons 1-4 and a lot of 5 were based off the books but since that they've kind of evolved into their own thing now.

It's good there's still two threads running for lore discussion etc but we have no clue if this is Martin's ending or not. I have to assume that they worked off rough notes of his though so in that case the books will likely provide a similar outcome.

You can't really compare the last few seasons fairly as Martin's work hasnt and most likely will never be released. The show runners aren't fantasy writers, building big worlds full of political treachery, Machiavellian scheming and indeed the fantasy element of the white walkers, dragons and the Night King to name a few.
The only other option they have is to wait for lord lazy arse to actually complete the books at which time the hype is gone (and the actors have aged too much).

Theres no real way to know what Martin's plan is until he actually finishes. If it turns out this is his plan all along then the writers of the show will likely be vindicated in following his story.

But if he doesn't then this is the only ending we're ever going to get so I've made peace with it.

Mr. Incognito · 01-05-2019 12:01PM

How utterly **** this TV writing is will be ruthlessly exposed when the books come out.

IF they ever come out.

Necro · 01-05-2019 12:04PM

Mr. Incognito wrote:

How utterly **** this TV writing is will be ruthlessly exposed when the books come out.

I mean you are probably right but surely the failing is still on Martin to ensure the books are released before the show?

IAmTheReign · 01-05-2019 12:08PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Poorly was probably the wrong choice of word tbf but again you just can't blame him if others weren't up to doing thier jobs as good as him.

He certainly shares the blame. He was supposed to have the books finished before the show. It's been 8 years since Martin wrote A Dance With Dragons.

The writers were expecting to have detailed source material to adapt and instead of finishing the series Martin has messed about writing prequels and companion books. I don't know how you could call that doing a good job. He's either cashing in on the franchise or he hasn't a clue how to finish the story. My money is on it being a little of both.

leggo · 01-05-2019 12:10PM

The only thing that I don't accept is that the writing isn't 'as good'. That's such a subjective thing to say and, as others have said, the last two books in the series were a mess at times. Like I always look at the Cersei/Robert conversation in season 1: that was a show original and is one of the most powerful scenes of dialogue in the series for me, book or show. Winds of Winter, Loot Train, Hardhome, Battle of the Bastards...all show originals, all fantastic. On the flip side, for all the positives of the book, GRRM wrote himself into a corner and simply can't finish them. I was chatting yesterday about how the Sansa storyline being condensed on the show being much better than how he's written her in the books. It wouldn't surprise me if Chapter 1 of 'Winds of Winter' was a Sansa POV chapter that started with:

"So you know how, on the show, Littlefinger arranges for Sansa to marry Ramsey instead of that whole Fake Arya and The Vale crap? Yeah, that. The rest was...uh...a dream."

I think because they are now separate entities there's this almost compulsive need to compare and rank one above the other...why? Why can't we just accept there are good and bad in both and be happy with both? I can't hold the books up as this sacred text because GRRM can't finish them. I can't disrespect the show because they're actually able to, and GRRM is just as responsible for any messiness that ensues because he gave them 5 books of source material then an ending and told them to figure it out. That's on him.

But I also don't need to do any of that. So why can't I just be happy and glad that I've got it all? Why do I need to try and disparage this thing I enjoy? It's not real. There are going to be elements of it where it needs to do stuff that mightn't happen in the real world to get to a certain place. The same is true of pretty much every story ever written. I can accept that.

leggo · 01-05-2019 12:14PM

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

How utterly **** this TV writing is will be ruthlessly exposed when the books come out.

IF they ever come out.

They're not going to, though! We MIGHT get Winds of Winter but we're not getting the final book. So you can fanboy all you like and idolise GRRM, but that's his fault. And the reality is that he almost definitely can't close the loops he opened. He says himself he's a gardener, not an architect, so he writes without a full plan and just let's it happen. The problem is he's written himself into a massive hole and can't get out. Instead he can live his life writing books around the greater lore, cashing those HBO cheques and consulting as an EP on prequel shows.

I'm sorry but the dude you're idolising here is a bit of a conman who can't deliver on what he promised. I don't blame him or hate him for it personally, but he can't do the thing you're criticising B&W for doing. It's like someone coming to do work on your house, starting it amazingly then just disappearing, and slating the lad who came in and tried to do his best with the general idea while holding up the initial guy as a saint. George took your money and ran dude. Let it go.

Roger Hassenforder · 01-05-2019 12:19PM

Maybe its for the good if the books were never finished...

Necro · 01-05-2019 12:23PM

leggo wrote:

They're not going to, though! We MIGHT get Winds of Winter but we're not getting the final book. So you can fanboy all you like and idolise GRRM, but that's his fault. And the reality is that he almost definitely can't close the loops he opened. He says himself he's a gardener, not an architect, so he writes without a full plan and just let's it happen. The problem is he's written himself into a massive hole and can't get out. Instead he can live his life writing books around the greater lore, cashing those HBO cheques and consulting as an EP on prequel shows.

Well here's the other thing as well. If the books ever get released and the ending is vastly different to the screen version, it's very difficult to hold the show accountable for it because of Martin being lax about releasing the last books.

A cynical person would argue that Martin is watching all of this outrage and thinking about the cold hard cash coming his way when he releases the last books (not happening but let us pretend it is) with completely different endings and subplots that go in different directions than the show.

But I agree, I think from Season 6 - 8 the show should be treated as a separate entity than the books now.

leggo · 01-05-2019 12:54PM

Necro wrote: »

A cynical person would argue that Martin is watching all of this outrage and thinking about the cold hard cash coming his way when he releases the last books (not happening but let us pretend it is) with completely different endings and subplots that go in different directions than the show.

Tbh I'd say he's looking at it going, "Well if they hate this, they're really going to hate when they go to space in the books. I'll just leave it and take the money..." :pac:

"Book readers" - Season 8 Episode 3 "The Long Night" - Spoilers post 2 forward

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