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"Book readers" - Season 8 Episode 3 "The Long Night" - Spoilers post 2 forward

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Comments

  • Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Drumpot wrote: »
    I didn’t read the books but heard a podcast discussing bran starks history which suggest the NK was a Bran stark who made the wall And fell in love with a nightqueen. Is that just book stuff and is it not now relevant to the show because they implied the NK was just some guy they made with no particular importance to who he is? Seems a bit of a stretch for them to do a twist with Bran at this stage?!

    That's the Night's King which is different. Think he was a Stark Lord Commander of the Night's Watch who fell in love with a WW.


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,984 Mod ✭✭✭✭Necro


    Mokuba wrote:
    There is no Night King in the books, yet at least.


    Well technically not but the scene in the book where Jon follows Craster is definitely a large shove in that direction.

    Granted we don't get the whole WW creation (which they weirdly never explained) scene but it's in the least heavily hinted.

    It's funny in a way as imo up to this episode the whole Night King saga has largely been a creation of the show as opposed to Martin.

    I'm hoping some day at least Winds of Winter will be released and there might be some indication that he was going along the same lines as the show in terms of that plotline anyways.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 456 ✭✭Tired Gardener


    This is a very well thought out analysis of the ending, and how it should have gone.

    https://youtu.be/vn6sfPJB-1E


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,555 ✭✭✭EagererBeaver


    Necro wrote: »
    Well technically not but the scene in the book where Jon follows Craster is definitely a large shove in that direction.

    Granted we don't get the whole WW creation (which they weirdly never explained) scene but it's in the least heavily hinted.

    It's funny in a way as imo up to this episode the whole Night King saga has largely been a creation of the show as opposed to Martin.

    I'm hoping some day at least Winds of Winter will be released and there might be some indication that he was going along the same lines as the show in terms of that plotline anyways.

    There's no "technically" about it, it simply hasn't happened.

    As for Jon following Craster being a "large shove in that direction" this is purely retrospective speculation following the influence of the show.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29,930 ✭✭✭✭TerrorFirmer


    I think if you know a bit about the logistics of filming and post production you're a bit more chilled out about it too. I can perfectly understand the thinking behind what happened to the Dothraki for example, it's the thinking of the producers of a large scale TV show and not of actual medieval military commanders.

    While there are some valid points in that post, there are two major discussion points there. Firstly, GOT used to be a very carefully written show in earlier seasons that would never have featured such a blatant use of lazy writing to fit a narrative choice. When people talk about their problems with the episode, they're not pointing to other TV shows, to medieval textbooks, or anything else. The literal benchmark is previous seasons of Games of Thrones itself.

    I know you did address the showrunners decision-making, but I do feel that they've blatantly seemed to stop caring in Seasons 7 and 8 specifically about maintaing any level of consistency to what came before. Half of season 5 was not book content; most of season 6 - despite that, S6 was quite a good seasons overall, S5 less so; but at least both were relatively consistent with seasons that came before them in terms of pacing and storytelling (even though, again, S5 wasn't great). But, at least, it does prove that they're perfectly capable of better in the scripting department.

    So clearly a decision was made (as you've said) that it was time to hammer the show home, even if a few square pegs had to be hammered into round holes. Whereas say, S5 was weak, but for very different reasons, mostly narrative choices, but the general scripting, pacing and tone was OK. But some people are acting like nothing's changed and that some people are impossible to please.

    Secondly, I do agree that budgetary concerns were always going to be an issue in what they could and couldn't display. Completely agree that in the context of everything, they probably couldn't afford to have had the Dothraki as a present force harrying the enemy for the entirety of the episode. Also, given the lack of time with which to work, they need them gone for the upcoming episodes...so they were always going to have to go out hard and fast, admittedly.

    However, it certainly could've been written much better with the same outcome. Again, I'm not a writer, but having the Dothraki say, charge into battle despite not being ordered to? A scene or two with Dany and Jon looking on saying something like "What are they doing - this isn't the plan" - same result, but slightly more credible than what happened.

    It's the same problem people have with the main characters surviving. It's not the inherent fact they did survive. It's that they were placed in utterly ludicrious situations, 'almost' died about a dozen times, but illogically survived anyway due to lazy writing. I mean there are levels of these things - nobody could reasonably argue that there weren't massive conveniences in GOT even from the first season, but nothing remotely approaching the scale of this episode. One character surviving impossible odds - perfectly acceptable. Everyone - far less so. A tighter script which placed some characters in different circumstances would've made it far more credible, and that's certainly nothing to do with budgetary concerns, but a priority given entirely to visual service.

    As I've said before, people are perfectly entitled to think that was a brilliant episode, that Game of Thrones is still brilliant, and everything else. Becuse it many ways, it still is. But the quality of the writing has just really declined. Obviously how that affects the individuals perception is up to them entirely, but both viewpoints are equally valid.
    I don’t see why the people who are dealing with the ****ty hand they were dealt are the ones getting crapped on. Any flaws are ultimately at least partially George’s fault because he failed to finish the books on time and left it to others to have to figure out how to wrap up the hole he wrote himself into. I will always appreciate what GRRM has given me through creating this world, but that’s just factual. People can be naive hero worship him all you like, it happened and it’s on him.

    Honestly most people don't care about GRRM in the context of this episode. The lazy writing is nothing to do with him. Ultimately, nothing will ever be able to change how fast paced S7 and S8 are and how abruptly the show is suddenly coming a a conclusion after 60 slow-burning, carefully built up episodes.....but the weak writing in S8 (specifically E03; E02 was actually pretty decent) is 100% on the writers. Mainly because people's issues aren't with the overall plot, but the scripting that drives it.

    I accept Arya killing the NK. I accept the main characters surviving. Those are core creative decisions, and they're inherently fine. What I don't accept is the lazy writing driving them, sitting underneath an admittedly amazing spectacle.

    With a few script changes I'd consider it up there with the best. Namely a) a more rational explanation for the Dothraki b) a far more rational setup for all the main characters surviving c) better dialogue between Dany and Jon in relation to the dragons at times and d) ideally another episode devoted to the NK; it was built up for 60 episodes, so broadly speaking it was anti-climatic but I'm a reasonable person so I'd certainly settle for the first two points at least. After all - nothing is perfect. Not even the best episodes of Game of Thrones through S1 to S4.

    Generally speaking I personally accept the plot as is being given to us by the showrunners. Just not how they're writing it (nor at the accelerated breakneck pace since S7 broadly speaking). I don't think GRRM is to blame for that. Equally I don't think people arguing in circles about how it should've been Jon, or anyone else, are overly productive. Those are massive divergences from the plot decision taken by the showrunners so I just don't get involved. My issues is always with the little things that could so easily have been done so much better.

    Don't get me wrong, Game of Thrones is still very much a good, even great TV show. Some of my once-favorite shows became, or have become, utter jokes that are difficult to watch in later seasons. Dexter and Walking Dead spring to mind.

    Game of Thrones is certainly not that to be fair.


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,984 Mod ✭✭✭✭Necro


    As for Jon following Craster being a "large shove in that direction" this is purely retrospective speculation following the influence of the show.


    Do you really expect it to be that vastly different that the Night King doesn't even exist though in the books?

    Seems a bit mad to assume that, given the show basically took that Craster and baby scene and expanded on it for dramatic TV effect.

    You can call it retrospective whatever, the fact is that scene happened in the book and the show so the logical conclusion to draw is that the extra bits are also a part of Martin's plans.

    If the entire story changes with Winds of Winter and the Night King is shown to be a show construction as opposed to Martin's then I'll be completely gobsmacked (and also cynical that Martin saw how the ending went and said, nah no need for the NK at all).

    But having said all that I dont believe we're even getting one book tbh so it's a moot point as we simply wont know until it's published.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,938 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    Wasn't it Robert who said " only a fool would meet the Dothraki in an open field "

    So the whole world thought you can not fight Dothraki in an open field , the Dotraki believed this themselves ,

    So it makes sense as crazy horse riding hoard they had no fear and wanted to meet the army of the dead in an open field,

    Why would they of a sudden they change how they do battle , there not trained Knights there a hoard of lunatics who meet you head on


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,984 Mod ✭✭✭✭Necro


    Honestly most people don't care about GRRM in the context of this episode. The lazy writing is nothing to do with him. Ultimately, nothing will ever be able to change how fast paced S7 and S8 are and how abruptly the show is suddenly coming a a conclusion after 60 slow-burning, carefully built up episodes.....but the weak writing in S8 (specifically E03; E02 was actually pretty decent) is 100% on the writers. Mainly because people's issues aren't with the overall plot, but the scripting that drives it.

    Isn't that the point though in that they had a fully formed narrative in the earlier seasons to deal with as opposed to making it up on the fly (or by Martin's notes on the ending).

    The fact they have less material (and likely HBO told them it had to wrap in 2 seasons) has contributed to the faster pace of the show since the beginning of S7.

    And it is imo perfectly acceptable to blame the lazy git Martin for not giving them said source material to adapt which most will agree they did rather brilliantly from seasons 1-4 anyways (first 3 seasons are arguably the best television ever produced imo).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29,930 ✭✭✭✭TerrorFirmer


    That would be perfectly grand if it was a battle between both in isolation but the Dothraki were part of a grand alliance and under the control of military leaders. The head-on charge, thought not actually discussed at any point, is clearly the plan agreed upon by all.

    It also ties into the above comment on scripting. You could've had a scene where Jon expresses unease at the tactic but Dany outlines something like what you're saying - that it is the only way they are willing to fight (because what you've said it actually quite true). Once again, job done, exact same outcome, but far less complaints.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29,930 ✭✭✭✭TerrorFirmer


    Necro wrote: »
    Isn't that the point though in that they had a fully formed narrative in the earlier seasons to deal with as opposed to making it up on the fly (or by Martin's notes on the ending).

    The fact they have less material (and likely HBO told them it had to wrap in 2 seasons) has contributed to the faster pace of the show since the beginning of S7.

    And it is imo perfectly acceptable to blame the lazy git Martin for not giving them said source material to adapt which most will agree they did rather brilliantly from seasons 1-4 anyways (first 3 seasons are arguably the best television ever produced imo).

    That's exactly what I'm saying though. The fast pace ultimately is what it is and there are reasons for it.

    I'm disappointed at it but not hugely surprised either. Even if GRRM had released more books it likely would've been difficult to keep it going much longer anyway, for a variety of reasons.

    At least, not without huge cast transitions, which would never have worked for this concept show like it does for other more fleeting shows.

    It did have to come to an end. I'd have liked S7 and S8 to be 10 episode seasons at least with a similar structure and pacing to S1-S6 but it is what it is.

    The scripting though is entirely different. We can reasonably expect more from writers who've been at the heart of the show since 2011.

    And I fully agree. To me, S1 through S4 are the best TV ever made. Hence why we're having this discussion! If GOT had been like this from the start, I'd consider Battle of Winterfell a 10/10.

    The problem isn't the script in isolation whatsoever - because honestly it's generally 100% competent - it's the scripting compared to previous seasons of GOT.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,555 ✭✭✭EagererBeaver


    Necro wrote: »
    Do you really expect it to be that vastly different that the Night King doesn't even exist though in the books?

    Seems a bit mad to assume that, given the show basically took that Craster and baby scene and expanded on it for dramatic TV effect.

    You can call it retrospective whatever, the fact is that scene happened in the book and the show so the logical conclusion to draw is that the extra bits are also a part of Martin's plans.

    If the entire story changes with Winds of Winter and the Night King is shown to be a show construction as opposed to Martin's then I'll be completely gobsmacked (and also cynical that Martin saw how the ending went and said, nah no need for the NK at all).

    But having said all that I dont believe we're even getting one book tbh so it's a moot point as we simply wont know until it's published.

    Whether I do or not is completely irrelevant. Your claim was that the books are headed in the direction of the Night King (who will presumably be the Great Other or the Night's King from the Old Nan tale). This claim is influenced solely by the role of the NK in the show, and if it hadn't happened, the thought of the Night's/Night King wouldn't have entered any of our collective heads.


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,984 Mod ✭✭✭✭Necro


    Whether I do or not is completely irrelevant. Your claim was that the books are headed in the direction of the Night King (who will presumably be the Great Other or the Night's King from the Old Nan tale). This claim is influenced solely by the role of the NK in the show, and if it hadn't happened, the thought of the Night's/Night King wouldn't have entered any of our collective heads.

    Well we'll just have to agree to differ on that until the books are released, which will likely be never :pac:


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 9,033 Mod ✭✭✭✭mewso


    This is a very well thought out analysis of the ending, and how it should have gone.

    https://youtu.be/vn6sfPJB-1E

    That would have been a fantastic way to do it. Great video.


  • Registered Users Posts: 683 ✭✭✭PhuckHugh




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,473 ✭✭✭✭Liam O


    Necro wrote: »
    Isn't that the point though in that they had a fully formed narrative in the earlier seasons to deal with as opposed to making it up on the fly (or by Martin's notes on the ending).

    The fact they have less material (and likely HBO told them it had to wrap in 2 seasons) has contributed to the faster pace of the show since the beginning of S7.

    And it is imo perfectly acceptable to blame the lazy git Martin for not giving them said source material to adapt which most will agree they did rather brilliantly from seasons 1-4 anyways (first 3 seasons are arguably the best television ever produced imo).

    Where are your books?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,331 ✭✭✭Keyzer


    Wasn't it Robert who said " only a fool would meet the Dothraki in an open field "

    So the whole world thought you can not fight Dothraki in an open field , the Dotraki believed this themselves ,

    So it makes sense as crazy horse riding hoard they had no fear and wanted to meet the army of the dead in an open field,

    Why would they of a sudden they change how they do battle , there not trained Knights there a hoard of lunatics who meet you head on

    Come on man, don't make excuses for this sh1tshow.

    Are we to believe that any military force (crazy or not) would blindly gallop at full pelt, in the pitch dark towards an army they cannot see nor have ever encountered before?

    Are we to believe the person in charge would order this? Order the entire cavalry to charge the enemy when they can't see them?

    Seriously?

    Words cannot describe how stupid this move was or how bad this writing was.

    The more I think about this episode, the more I think they have destroyed the entire show.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,938 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    Keyzer wrote: »
    Come on man, don't make excuses for this sh1tshow.

    Are we to believe that any military force (crazy or not) would blindly gallop at full pelt, in the pitch dark towards an army they cannot see nor have ever encountered before?

    Are we to believe the person in charge would order this? Order the entire cavalry to charge the enemy when they can't see them?

    Seriously?

    Words cannot describe how stupid this move was or how bad this writing was.

    The more I think about this episode, the more I think they have destroyed the entire show.

    There suppose to be savages feared by everyone in the open field, and now they have flaming swords, They thought they had nothing to fear as every army they ever came up againstfeared them,

    How is that so hard to believe but Dragons , and army of the dead and a Night King is believable


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,331 ✭✭✭Keyzer


    There suppose to be savages feared by everyone in the open field, and now they have flaming swords, They thought they had nothing to fear as every army they ever came up againstfeared them,

    How is that so hard to believe but Dragons , and army of the dead and a Night King is believable

    Because it's absolutely stupid, that's why. Beyond stupid. Regardless of what the Dothraki thought, what idiot ordered the entire cavalry out first? Idiotic...

    Whether your standards (and I mean the standards set by the show itself in seasons 1-4) are just too low or your a fanboy, I don't know. This episode destroyed everything that came before for the last 9 years.

    And don't bring in the "oh but there's dragons and giants in the show, and you have a problem with this" angle.... That's the lazy way out.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    Destroyed the entire show. Ok so.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,938 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    Keyzer wrote: »
    Because it's absolutely stupid, that's why. Beyond stupid. Regardless of what the Dothraki thought, what idiot ordered the entire cavalry out first? Idiotic...

    Whether your standards (and I mean the standards set by the show itself in seasons 1-4) are just too low or your a fanboy, I don't know. This episode destroyed everything that came before for the last 9 years.

    And don't bring in the "oh but there's dragons and giants in the show, and you have a problem with this" angle.... That's the lazy way out.

    Of course the show was better in season 1-4 why would that surprise you ? At that stage it was almost pulled straight form the books, which took decades to write and so much time was taking over each peace of dialogue years in fact, a tv show does not have that time ,

    It didn't ruin it for me at all, If you don't like it it's ok you can just not watch it,

    I read a good story the other day about way fans of all series get annoyed at the end and its mainly got to do with the fact they spend so much time reading fan theories and having there own that when it comes to pass and is different they go banana's and can't hack it hasn't gone the way they expected ,


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,331 ✭✭✭Keyzer


    I read a good story the other day about way fans of all series get annoyed at the end and its mainly got to do with the fact they spend so much time reading fan theories and having there own that when it comes to pass and is different they go banana's and can't hack it hasn't gone the way they expected ,

    I can assure you, that's not me. I'm pissed off because here was a show that was brave, courageous and said no, we're not going to do what everyone else does. Were going to tell the story no matter how it goes. Something changed and that something was overtaking the books - no way GRRM would have written this tripe.

    My main gripes are twofold:

    1. The absolutely diabolical writing and inconsistencies (e.g. zombie dragon takes a 700ft wall and decimates part of Winterfell with its fire yet Jon is grand behind a rock) littered throughout the episode. Arya making it past a legion of wights and white walkers unnoticed to take out the NK when earlier she was discovered in the library when a drop of blood was heard hitting the ground - a drop of blood.

    2. The entire show (and books) have built this up since day one, literally day one. 8 seasons of Winter is coming. The throne no longer mattered. All that mattered was over coming the greatest threat to life. And it's over, in one episode. The NK vanquished. A character who is 8000 years in existence. In the most ridiculous, non GRRM way I could ever have imagined.

    I'll leave it at that - I have my opinion, you have yours which I respect but I don't agree.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,936 ✭✭✭Tazzimus


    Just on the Arya point:
    The scene in the library I think was meant to show how she could move around in silence. The wights didn't hear her moving, they heard some blood drip off her face. That scene may have been there to kinda explain how the WW didn't notice her. Possibly.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,833 ✭✭✭✭MisterAnarchy


    Keyzer wrote: »

    Words cannot describe how stupid this move was or how bad this writing was.

    The more I think about this episode, the more I think they have destroyed the entire show.

    The mission north to capture the Wight was just as imbecilic,that was the real jump the shark moment and the show has been on a downward spiral since.
    Logic has completely gone out the window.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,785 ✭✭✭abff


    The level of outrage on this thread is quite amusing. As someone who's read all the books and avidly watched all the previous episodes, I agree that it was somewhat anticlimactic. And I also agree with the YouTube video arguing that Theon would have been a more fitting (and poetic) NK killer.

    But it is what it is. It was a nerve wracking episode and my heart was racing at the end. The way they built up the tension at the start was brilliantly done, but many of the later scenes were definitely too dark and difficult to follow because of that.

    I agree that the plot armour was a bit overdone, but it was too early in the series to kill off any of the major players and I don't have a problem with Arya being the one to deliver the fateful blow. She was my favourite character in the books (although I think I enjoyed Tyrion more) and the comic book KickAss references by many posters are a bit overdone, although somewhat understandable.

    I'm looking forward to the last three episodes, although it does feel like the main climax has already been reached. There are still a lot of subplots to be finalised and I'm really looking forward to seeing Cersei getting her much deserved comeuppance.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,061 ✭✭✭leggo


    I still find it gas people giving out at the same time about it not being realistic then also decrying Jon not killing the Night King.

    If this was a real battle, one side alone has 100,000+. That's a number that could collectively be best described as a population. With those numbers at play, it's extremely unlikely that two specific people on opposing sides would even see each other, much less kill each other. It's much more likely that someone completely random would kill either or both of them (99,999/1 in favour of a wight killing Jon over the NK, for example), especially once the dragon battle is over and they're both on foot in separate locations.

    These criticisms don't match up and the showrunners can't make a 'perfect' show while that's the case. It's literally impossible if those are the expectations you bring to the table: "Be realistic but also give me the specific things I want regardless of how realistic they are." That mindset will disappoint you 100% of the time with any story. It's truly can't win territory and the only thing that can possibly give here are people's expectations.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭PhiloCypher


    leggo wrote: »
    I still find it gas people giving out at the same time about it not being realistic then also decrying Jon not killing the Night King.

    If this was a real battle, one side alone has 100,000+. That's a number that could collectively be best described as a population. With those numbers at play, it's extremely unlikely that two specific people on opposing sides would even see each other, much less kill each other. It's much more likely that someone completely random would kill either or both of them (99,999/1 in favour of a wight killing Jon over the NK, for example), especially once the dragon battle is over and they're both on foot in separate locations.

    These criticisms don't match up and the showrunners can't make a 'perfect' show while that's the case. It's literally impossible if those are the expectations you bring to the table: "Be realistic but also give me the specific things I want regardless of how realistic they are." That mindset will disappoint you 100% of the time with any story. It's truly can't win territory and the only thing that can possibly give here are people's expectations.

    It's called having a nuanced opinion. It's possible to have wanted a more realistic battle plan AND for John and the NK to find each other across a crowded battlefield, especially as John knew where he was going ie. The Gods wood. Neither are mutually exclusive.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,061 ✭✭✭leggo


    It's called having a nuanced opinion. It's possible to have wanted a more realistic battle plan AND for John and the NK to find each other across a crowded battlefield, especially as John knew where he was going ie. The Gods wood. Neither are mutually exclusive.

    That’s not what nuance means. Saying “I want realism” but then rooting for an outcome that’s unlikely in a realistic scenario is contradictory.

    In a realistic scenario, Arya would be the only person we’ve seen who has the skills required to kill the NK in the situation described. Having Viserion guard the Godswood and WWs guard the entrance is a logical strategy, Jon couldn’t have gotten past that (and didn’t). Having the army of the dead overwhelm the living to be able to enact that strategy is totally believable. In that instance, Arya being the one to kill him is more realistic than having Jon somehow down a dragon and overcome a dozen WWs. Nobody is going to do that, even if it’s a team effort there’s not even enough Valyrian Steel swords to take out the WWs if you somehow navigate past the dragon.

    So if it’s realism you want, Jon doing it is an absolute no-go.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,473 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    leggo wrote: »
    That’s not what nuance means. Saying “I want realism” but then rooting for an outcome that’s unlikely in a realistic scenario is contradictory.
    .

    I’m fine without realism, it’s a show with magic and dragons FFS.

    I’d settle for coherence with a dash of smarts.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,576 ✭✭✭Paddy Cow


    Wasn't it Robert who said " only a fool would meet the Dothraki in an open field "

    So the whole world thought you can not fight Dothraki in an open field , the Dotraki believed this themselves ,

    So it makes sense as crazy horse riding hoard they had no fear and wanted to meet the army of the dead in an open field,

    Why would they of a sudden they change how they do battle , there not trained Knights there a hoard of lunatics who meet you head on
    100% and it makes total sense. Everyone thought the Dothraki would take out a good portion of the NK's army. When Melissandre lit their swords it gave them extra confidence. Everyone was standing around waiting for something to happen and the Dothraki were like "fcuk it, lets charge". That was their fcuk up. As soon as they charged, the reserve started using the trebucets but only got off one round as anymore would've taken out the Dothraki as well. They should've held their nerve and waited until the enemy got closer but they are impulsive and not used to tactical battles. Brute force has always worked for them, expect this time it didn't.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,576 ✭✭✭Paddy Cow


    Keyzer wrote: »
    Because it's absolutely stupid, that's why. Beyond stupid. Regardless of what the Dothraki thought, what idiot ordered the entire cavalry out first? Idiotic...
    There were a lot of stupid and unbelievable things that happened in this episode but the Dothraki charging as they usually do isn't one of them. I'd take more issue with Jorah riding back as a big one. He was at the head of the Dothraki charge. Even if he wanted to turn back, it shouldn't have been possible.

    The second tactical issue I have is why the fcuk the Unsullied went out armed with six foot spears??? They are absolutely useless in hand to hand combat, something they supposedly learned when the Sons of the Haries were picking them off years ago. They should have been armed with swords and daggers. But everyone overlooks this because they died honourably.

    A third point - why was Arya the only one to question Gendry on what the dead were actually like? She wanted to know what type of enemy she was facing and I suppose Gendry saying "death" was supposed to be some foreshadowing of what Arya says to death.

    A fourth - when they believed that the cavalry were going to be useful, why weren't the Knight's of the Vale out there with the Dothraki? They had saved Winterfell once before yet this time they were foot soldiers with Brienne. It's definitely an inconsistency.

    There is a lot to criticise about this episode but I just don't get the hate on why the Dothraki behaved like they did - charging has always been what they are known for and even people in Westeros had enough respect for their skills to fear them. The only criticism that I have about that charge is that it was always going to be a suicide mission with only their curved swords. Regular swords don't stop the dead but Gendry was never going to have enough time to equip them with dragon glass swords.

    Maybe it's because they got decimated so quickly that it's p!ssing people off but I found it believable and a brilliant scene. Because they were on horse back there was feck all they could do when faced with the tsunami of dead. We saw how quickly Jorah got over run and lost his horse but he had space to get up and fight. The Dothraki had no chance to turn and run because their front riders would've been pushed forward by the back riders still charging (this is why I find it so unbelievable that Jorah made it out).

    You talk about stupidity but remember the Battle of the Bastards? They talked about tactics and Jon was told not to meet Ramsay in the field. Even Sansa warned him that Rickon was as good as dead and don't do what Ramsay expected. Jon forgot everything in the heat of the moment and made a monumental mistake and nearly got his entire army killed. Only for the Knight's of the Vale turned up Jon would've lost, yet everyone still says that this was one of the best battles! The Dothtraki made a decision they always make to charge and yet you still think it was stupid?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,576 ✭✭✭Paddy Cow


    The show writers had to make a decision on who killed the Night King. I've watched a lot of videos dissecting the episode and as was pointed out in one, Jon having an epic sword fight with the NK and him wining would be too cliche. He already won against a WW and that's where he learned the value of Valerian steel, knowledge he could pass onto others. GRRM has always said he didn't want his story to be like a regular fantasy where the hero defeats the bad guy. So if not Jon, then who else?

    One option offered up was Theon. I think that would have gone down worse than Arya. It might sound good in hindsight but it's too much of a stretch and would've p!ssed people off even more. If not Jon or Theon, then who else in Winterfell could do it? Sansa? The Hound? There was literally no one else with the training to pull it off.

    I have problems with this episode but overall I can put them aside and enjoyed it. For me the NK has never been the biggest enemy. It's always been other humans, namely Cersei. I'm glad the NK plot has been put to bed and we can focus on what's going to happen. We're getting back to the Game of Thrones. Now the threat is over, how will Dany react to knowing that Jon has a greater claim than her? Will Tyrion stay loyal to Dany or side with Sansa? Varys has always claimed to be loyal to the realm, how will that play out? What is Jamie going to do? What is Jon going to do now he knows his heritage? Will Sansa get a show down with Cersei? Will Arya attempt to kill the Mountain and kick off Cleganbowl? Will Tormound finally knight Brienne?

    So many more intriguing situations than some Zombie King who's only motivation was to kill all mankind. I can't wait for next week when it all kicks off.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭paulbok


    Paddy Cow wrote: »
    There were a lot of stupid and unbelievable things that happened in this episode but the Dothraki charging as they usually do isn't one of them. I'd take more issue with Jorah riding back as a big one. He was at the head of the Dothraki charge. Even if he wanted to turn back, it shouldn't have been possible.

    The second tactical issue I have is why the fcuk the Unsullied went out armed with six foot spears??? They are absolutely useless in hand to hand combat, something they supposedly learned when the Sons of the Haries were picking them off years ago. They should have been armed with swords and daggers. But everyone overlooks this because they died honourably.

    A third point - why was Arya the only one to question Gendry on what the dead were actually like? She wanted to know what type of enemy she was facing and I suppose Gendry saying "death" was supposed to be some foreshadowing of what Arya says to death.

    A fourth - when they believed that the cavalry were going to be useful, why weren't the Knight's of the Vale out there with the Dothraki? They had saved Winterfell once before yet this time they were foot soldiers with Brienne. It's definitely an inconsistency.

    There is a lot to criticise about this episode but I just don't get the hate on why the Dothraki behaved like they did - charging has always been what they are known for and even people in Westeros had enough respect for their skills to fear them. The only criticism that I have about that charge is that it was always going to be a suicide mission with only their curved swords. Regular swords don't stop the dead but Gendry was never going to have enough time to equip them with dragon glass swords.

    Maybe it's because they got decimated so quickly that it's p!ssing people off but I found it believable and a brilliant scene. Because they were on horse back there was feck all they could do when faced with the tsunami of dead. We saw how quickly Jorah got over run and lost his horse but he had space to get up and fight. The Dothraki had no chance to turn and run because their front riders would've been pushed forward by the back riders still charging (this is why I find it so unbelievable that Jorah made it out).

    You talk about stupidity but remember the Battle of the Bastards? They talked about tactics and Jon was told not to meet Ramsay in the field. Even Sansa warned him that Rickon was as good as dead and don't do what Ramsay expected. Jon forgot everything in the heat of the moment and made a monumental mistake and nearly got his entire army killed. Only for the Knight's of the Vale turned up Jon would've lost, yet everyone still says that this was one of the best battles! The Dothtraki made a decision they always make to charge and yet you still think it was stupid?

    Jorah was seen falling back at one stage during the charge, perhaps he seen that they lost whatever shape they had and it wasn't going to go to plan. He was also the only non Dothraki and had military training do wasn't bound by their 'fighting honour' and would have quickly realise the plan was fooked and ordered a retreat, but few either heard him or listened to him. Those that did follow him back did look she'll shocked.

    Agree with the second point, but maybe they are so we'll drilled at what they do, they couldn't be trained to fight in a different style?

    On the third, Arya was an assassin of the many faced God, one of which is death (Syrio said to her that there is only one God and that is death, hence the not today quote). To me it made sense that she was facinated about the dead she was about to face having seen so many types of death in her training.
    Not directly related to your post,
    I think there was ever only going to be 4 characters that could kill the Night King, Job the obvious one, Dany and a dragon, Bran as the target of the NK and the highly trained assassin, agent of death.

    Don't know if a trained and organised Vale Calvary would work alongside the mayhem of the Dothraki swarm, but I think it was down to numbers, they Vale army was needed on the other flank to Brienne.

    As for the battle in general, it did make sense that the bulk of the defenders got decimated so quickly, but that for me made it that bit hard to believe they could hold on so long inside Winterfel once the walls and gates were breached.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭fash


    There suppose to be savages feared by everyone in the open field, and now they have flaming swords, They thought they had nothing to fear as every army they ever came up againstfeared them,

    How is that so hard to believe but Dragons , and army of the dead and a Night King is believable
    Being a "savage" doesn't mean you are stupid - the Mongols didn't take over the world by being stupid.
    The Dothraki only got flaming swords by accident (remember? Nobody knew Melisandre was coming)- their actual plan was to charge against the sea of Wights (and don't forget they knew how big the Wight army would be- it was on the war board in S8E2) with ordinary swords in the pitch dark.
    So the actual plan was for the Dothraki to commit suicide - but to do it faster and in the dark.
    Frankly I would have preferred a dialogue that they had to kill all the horses off screen to feed the population rather than a stupid plan.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 456 ✭✭Tired Gardener


    fash wrote: »
    Being a "savage" doesn't mean you are stupid - the Mongols didn't take over the world by being stupid.
    The Dothraki only got flaming swords by accident (remember? Nobody knew Melisandre was coming)- their actual plan was to charge against the sea of Wights (and don't forget they knew how big the Wight army would be- it was on the war board in S8E2) with ordinary swords in the pitch dark.
    So the actual plan was for the Dothraki to commit suicide - but to do it faster and in the dark.
    Frankly I would have preferred a dialogue that they had to kill all the horses off screen to feed the population rather than a stupid plan.

    This.

    The Dothraki are ASoIaF's version of Mongolians, Huns, and other stepped warriors. They were not savages, they were nomadic. Their culture was just different to the cultures around them. The same is true for the Dothraki.

    This episode was dire, the more it is thought about and analysed, the more glaring plot holes are seen.

    I think the reason for killing off the Dothraki and the Unsullied is for budget constraints, which the writers are going to work into the plot to show how what is left of the North is going to struggle against Cerci's forces. So essentially a story dictated by budget limitations.

    At this stage it is best to see the books and the shoe as two different beings.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭fash


    By rights, there is no need for a fight with Cersei (except for directorial decisions ordering it)- they have Bran to know everything and Arya to steal someone's face, sneak in and kill Cersei then take Cersei's face and surrender.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,061 ✭✭✭leggo


    The term “savages” is used, in the context of the show, as a racist slur against the Dothraki. That’s how Cersei and Randyll described them to dissuade people from supporting Dany. It’s not meant as an accurate assessment of their culture or ability.


  • Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    On the Dothraki point, the show should have been The Intentional Charge of the Light Brigade.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,087 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf



    At this stage it is best to see the books and the shoe as two different beings.

    I don't see much connection either tbh:

    https%3A%2F%2Fhypebeast.com%2Fimage%2F2018%2F07%2Fgame-of-thrones-adidas-ultraboost-2019-collaboration-1.jpg?q=75&w=800&cbr=1&fit=max


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,984 Mod ✭✭✭✭Necro


    This.

    The Dothraki are ASoIaF's version of Mongolians, Huns, and other stepped warriors. They were not savages, they were nomadic. Their culture was just different to the cultures around them. The same is true for the Dothraki.

    Eh? The Dothraki's entire culture pre-Dany was one of conquering, killing and raping.

    That's pretty much the description of a savage.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 456 ✭✭Tired Gardener


    Necro wrote: »
    Eh? The Dothraki's entire culture pre-Dany was one of conquering, killing and raping.

    That's pretty much the description of a savage.

    We could say the same about the inhabitants of the 7 kingdoms. If we render down any culture down to basic pigeon holes, it is easy to label them as savages.

    https://youtu.be/ddkc__6mgg4


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  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,984 Mod ✭✭✭✭Necro


    We could say the same about the inhabitants of the 7 kingdoms. If we render down any culture down to basic pigeon holes, it is easy to label them as savages.

    So the actions of the Dothraki in the early stages of both the book and the series are not those of savages in your opinion?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    If the dohraki are the equivalent of the Mongols who is their Genghis Khan? Drogo conquered nothing bar other tribes. Dany isn't a military mastermind imo.

    Saying someone is akin to the Mongols except they don't have a Genghis Khan figure is akin to saying this is like a steak but without the meat. He was such a large part of the reason that empire was all conquering, that I don't see how the comparison holds.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,576 ✭✭✭Paddy Cow


    Necro wrote: »
    So the actions of the Dothraki in the early stages of both the book and the series are not those of savages in your opinion?
    Even Dany was horrified by how they behaved when they sacked somewhere. She tried to claim all the women to stop them getting raped which is what lead to the fight between Khal Drogo and the other guy, which ultimately lead to Drogo's death.

    The people of Westeros aren't saints by any stretch of the imagination - Tywin sent the Mountain with a force to deliberately rape and plunder the countryside to stir things up but they do at least try to have some sort of civilisation in peace times. The Dothraki simply show up, rape, plunder, take slaves and move on to the next target.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,539 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    pinkypinky wrote: »
    Arya killing the Night King: it does seem strange - she's had nothing to do with that story all

    Arya killing the Nights King is deadly. The way in which they did it - not so.

    Her character as a stealthy and careful assassin was undermined by her manning the wall and mowing down the wights with a pike like a super soldier, then running scared like a regular joe, then sneaking around afraid of the wights tramping around like zombies, then killing the female wight with a deft cut, then running again, then bursting through a door screaming until Dondarrion saves her, being frightened again, looking overly concerned when Dondarrion (who she had previously wanted to kill) dies, then locked in a room with Melisandre, pep talk that made me cringe as it was a throwback to another character, then she runs off, then a gust of wind, suddenly comes charging out of no where (if she was stealthy enough to get past all the wights and white walkers, why didnt she sneak up on the nights king as well instead of charging at him), the whole knife drop thing was ok I suppose.

    Other gripes are having an army outside the castle walls instead of inside, no prior skirmishes etc, and the stab the nights king and it all goes away stuff is a bit of an easy solution.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,087 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Arya killing the Nights King is deadly. The way in which they did it - not so.

    Her character as a stealthy and careful assassin was undermined by her manning the wall and mowing down the wights with a pike like a super soldier, then running scared like a regular joe,

    Yeah I found that a bit odd. Had she lost the two-head axe by that stage?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,300 ✭✭✭✭razorblunt


    Watched it again. 3rd time. Some points still jumping out as bad particularly Sam, I counted 4 times he was swarmed. 4!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,087 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    razorblunt wrote: »
    Watched it again. 3rd time. Some points still jumping out as bad particularly Sam, I counted 4 times he was swarmed. 4!

    Someone on twitter said this was Sam for the entire episode

    tenor.gif?itemid=11525536

    And yet he survived


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    razorblunt wrote: »
    Watched it again. 3rd time. Some points still jumping out as bad particularly Sam, I counted 4 times he was swarmed. 4!

    Bitch needs to die


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,576 ✭✭✭Paddy Cow


    Arya killing the Nights King is deadly. The way in which they did it - not so.
    It's not the first time they've got the situation wrong. The most ridiculous thing they did was have her be stabbed 5/6 times in the torso, fall in a manky river, sleep it off overnight and then beat the uninjured waif T-1000.


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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,539 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Paddy Cow wrote: »
    It's not the first time they've got the situation wrong. The most ridiculous thing they did was have her be stabbed 5/6 times in the torso, fall in a manky river, sleep it off overnight and then beat the uninjured waif T-1000.

    I suppose I can tolerate that a bit more because the Arya vs. waif thing is a relatively minor plot point and potentially allegorical for her own battles with her self identity etc. By contrast, the battle between the living and the dead is (possibly) the titular Song of Ice and Fire. So nothing could be more important to the plot than the defeat of the white walkers. Tonally, it all seemed a little bit off, perhaps as a combination of a lot of small things that didn't seem right.


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