Avengers: Endgame [ SPOILERS FROM POST 613 ]

silverharp · 29-04-2019 12:40PM

that would help , it included all life so including plants, so you would have a weird situation of trees and crops that disappeared 5 years ago suddenly reappearing.

Zubeneschamali · 29-04-2019 12:42PM

Gbear wrote: »

They didn't travel into their past. Every trip they made was it's own self-contained universe.

There was no overlap between them.

No, Steve living out his life here and arriving on the park bench clearly shows it is time travel.

Howard Stark remembers the comment Tony makes (as Potts) about what his Dad used to say and repeats it his son, clearly our Tony, in a time loop.

Zubeneschamali · 29-04-2019 12:45PM

Gbear wrote: »

It is, both in the time travel explanation scene with Bruce, Ant-Man, Rhodey and Hawkeye, and then later with the Ancient One and Ghost-Bruce.

Bruce is literally talking in gobbledegook, it means nothing.

The Ancient One actually draws the timeline diagram from Back to the Future II!

(She is also talking rubbish, Thanos doesn't just remove the stones, he destroys them yet the Earth is not overrun by the Dark Dimensions even though she and Strange are both dead.)

29-04-2019 12:49PM

Ethereal Cereal wrote: »

Yea, when I saw his 5 year old daughter, it had occurred to me that a plot point would be Tony having to sacrifice his own daughter for the sake of the universe but...

the writers didn't really explore this. She was bang on 5 years old, so it wasn't established was she pre or post snap. There was that discussion in IW about Pepper being pregnant. And I cant imagine Tony and Pepper deciding to have a child within the first year after the snap, with everything that was happening.

Also that means Tony really inflicted universe wide chaos all to keep his own daughter?

As I said a few pages back, if someone asked me to sacrifice my child I would say "f*ck your timeline"

micks_address · 29-04-2019 12:52PM

i thought it might have been a more interesting end if cap disappeared and black widow re appeared in his place..

Penn · 29-04-2019 12:54PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

(She is also talking rubbish, Thanos doesn't just remove the stones, he destroys them yet the Earth is not overrun by the Dark Dimensions even though she and Strange are both dead.)

There are other Sorcerers likely defending each from threats, but I also think The Ancient One was more so saying that if the Time Stone is removed from her in the past, then occasions where she/Strange would have used the stone against threats between 2012 and the future, they then wouldn't have the stone. Hence why it's agreed they have to return the stone back to right when it was taken from.

alchemist33 · 29-04-2019 01:00PM

I agree with Gbear's explanantion of things. Overall they did the time travel well - recovering the stones to undo the snap, rather than just going back and preventing it all happening, was a big plus for the film. But Cap's return was a mistake in their use of time travel and some of what Tilda Swinton's character said didn't hang together either.

Re characters being easily able to return to their own timeline, I think this was that the quantum machine pulled them back, rather than them having to navigate the multiverse to find their own world.

Mitch Connor · 29-04-2019 01:05PM

Penn wrote: »

There are other Sorcerers likely defending each from threats, but I also think The Ancient One was more so saying that if the Time Stone is removed from her in the past, then occasions where she/Strange would have used the stone against threats between 2012 and the future, they then wouldn't have the stone. Hence why it's agreed they have to return the stone back to right when it was taken from.

My memory of it is that the stones are tied to the fabric of that reality and that removing a stone (any stone) would have dire consequences - which is why they were returned.

Big issue with Thanos destorying them - but it could be that the energy that they are made of was returned to the universe, so they are not removed but also cannot be used. Speculation with no basis for that, really, though.

kerplun k · 29-04-2019 01:24PM

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Some of the bleak side consequences of the snap reversal are interesting - the non-snapped who died during the five years; those who return to find their world up-ended (people who’ve moved on etc)... A lot of people returning from their five year timeout to discover a pretty ****ed up world no doubt. Although reckon that sort of grim stuff is better handled by the likes of The Leftovers than the popcorn heroics of the MCU.

Tis would make a great TV show.

NuMarvel · 29-04-2019 01:26PM

Gbear wrote: »

It is, both in the time travel explanation scene with Bruce, Ant-Man, Rhodey and Hawkeye, and then later with the Ancient One and Ghost-Bruce.

I don't remember any mention of alternate universes in Bruce's first explanation. He didn't really explain it at all, just said that things won't change, because your past is the present, and the present is your future or something like that.

And I took the Ancient One's warnings to be specific to removing the stones, and not time travel in general.

But it's possible I missed some stuff while being outraged at Banner trash talking Back to the Future. :mad::mad:

Zubeneschamali · 29-04-2019 02:03PM

Penn wrote: »

There are other Sorcerers likely defending each from threats, but I also think The Ancient One was more so saying that if the Time Stone is removed from her in the past, then occasions where she/Strange would have used the stone against threats between 2012 and the future, they then wouldn't have the stone. Hence why it's agreed they have to return the stone back to right when it was taken from.

But the stone is destroyed by Thanos in the first act, she is dead, Strange is dust, yet even without the Ancient One, Strange and the stone, no bad things overrun the earth while everyone is moping around.

She is wrong.

brianregan09 · 29-04-2019 02:09PM

Wong would have taken over as Sorcerer Supreme easy really

Zubeneschamali · 29-04-2019 02:10PM

brianregan09 wrote: »

Wong would have taken over as Sorcerer Supreme easy really

He has no stone though.

brianregan09 · 29-04-2019 02:12PM

Yeah but nobody else has either they were protectors of the stones more than users of them, they would still be able to protect the earth from other dimensions

Victor · 29-04-2019 02:13PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

But the stone is destroyed by Thanos in the first act, she is dead, Strange is dust, yet even without the Ancient One, Strange and the stone, no bad things overrun the earth while everyone is moping around.

In fairness, within a few years Thanos shows up again wanting to kill everyone. :pac:

Ping Chow Chi · 29-04-2019 02:18PM

If they took the time stone in the first avengers film and did not return it, that would have let that weird fella in Dr Strange win though.

Penn · 29-04-2019 02:21PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

He has no stone though.

They don't always use the stone though. The stone was more of a failsafe; a weapon for them to use in extreme circumstances, when it might appear that nothing else will work. Other than that, it was something that they protected and hid. She was saying that without their greatest weapon they could be left defenceless, and she was right (as Dr.Strange would have failed at defeating Dormammu without it).

Yes, the stones no longer exist because in the present they have now been destroyed by Thanos, so they have lost their greatest weapon, but given the cost of the alternative, it was the price which had to be paid.

Foxtrol · 29-04-2019 02:28PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

But the stone is destroyed by Thanos in the first act, she is dead, Strange is dust, yet even without the Ancient One, Strange and the stone, no bad things overrun the earth while everyone is moping around.

She is wrong.

How is she wrong, Dr Strange needed the time stone to defeat Dormammu in his movie in 2016, so we know it was required at this point at minimum?

She has some knowledge of the future (knowing about Dr Strange) but it is also clearly limited, not aware that he gives away the stone. Their group basically devotes their life in part to protect the time stone, so it isn't that surprising that she thinks it’ll be necessary again.

Again I'm not sure this is something to be caught up on, there's a decent explanation for it.

RayCun · 29-04-2019 02:30PM

Midnight_EG wrote: »

Failing to understand this

Some people really don't like Captain Marvel

paulbok · 29-04-2019 02:31PM

silverharp wrote: »

that would help , it included all life so including plants, so you would have a weird situation of trees and crops that disappeared 5 years ago suddenly reappearing.

What if you have say a tree re-appear where a person is now standing, is that how Groots people were created?

Ave Sodalis · 29-04-2019 02:32PM

Foxtrol wrote:

She has some knowledge of the future (knowing about Dr Strange) but it is also clearly limited, not aware that he gives away the stone. Their group basically devotes their life in part to protect the time stone, so it isn't that surprising that she thinks itâ€™ll be necessary again.

She can only see as far as her own death, which happens after Strange comes but before Infinity Wars.

Foxtrol · 29-04-2019 02:35PM

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Anyone else think RDJ really didn't look healthy in the film?

Due to nearly dying of starvation he was supposed to look terrible before the 5 year jump. Feel that might have coloured my perception of him for the rest of the movie.

RDJ is starting to show his age and, though not quite Thor levels, didn’t put in the effort to get in superhero shape for this (which makes some sense being retired).

Tazzimus · 29-04-2019 02:40PM

The dude is 53 and had a fairly hard early life with all the drugs etc.

I actually think he looks alright considering his age, not Paul Rudd levels of alright, but decent for a man approaching his mid 50's

eviltimeban · 29-04-2019 02:44PM

So, if Cap went back to the 40s and got back with the girl, wouldn't everyone have known who he was? He was pretty famous. So they wouldn't have been looking for him or found him in the ice.

And how did he get back to the 40s, if he had only gone back to 1970? Could he go anywhere he wanted? My take was that Banner had plotted a course for him and was in control of where / when he was going.

Zubeneschamali · 29-04-2019 02:51PM

eviltimeban wrote: »

So, if Cap went back to the 40s and got back with the girl, wouldn't everyone have known who he was?

Maybe he grew a beard.

RayCun · 29-04-2019 02:52PM

eviltimeban wrote: »

And how did he get back to the 40s, if he had only gone back to 1970? Could he go anywhere he wanted? My take was that Banner had plotted a course for him and was in control of where / when he was going.

Remember they originally went back to New York during the invasion, and he and Tony used their second jump to travel to 1970 instead of back to their own time.

TerrorFirmer · 29-04-2019 02:53PM

Tazzimus wrote: »

The dude is 53 and had a fairly hard early life with all the drugs etc.

I actually think he looks alright considering his age, not Paul Rudd levels of alright, but decent for a man approaching his mid 50's

I would say he looks more than alright, he looks good for 54.

Interestingly, the guy who plays Crossbones (Frank Grillo) is also 53 and in great shape for a guy that age.

So, if Cap went back to the 40s and got back with the girl, wouldn't everyone have known who he was? He was pretty famous. So they wouldn't have been looking for him or found him in the ice.

I would guess that they chose the quiet life far, far away from everything they had known, so his other-self would have followed the same path as he once did and no-one would've been any the wiser.

On the 2nd point, I also guess he could've jumped again if he had a vial of pym's compound on his person. A one-way trip.

Drumpot · 29-04-2019 03:00PM

eviltimeban wrote: »

So, if Cap went back to the 40s and got back with the girl, wouldn't everyone have known who he was? He was pretty famous. So they wouldn't have been looking for him or found him in the ice.

And how did he get back to the 40s, if he had only gone back to 1970? Could he go anywhere he wanted? My take was that Banner had plotted a course for him and was in control of where / when he was going.

As I understood it, Cap had enough pym sauce to make enough Jumps to return all the stones, not just the 1970 jump. When he returned the stones he went back to 1940 instead of coming back to 2023z. What hulk was controlling on his end I don’t full know TBH.

There seems to be a couple of explanations of time travel. The ancient one suggested alternative universes are created once you go back in time and change the past. This makes sense in some regards but doesn’t explain how the Cap ended up back in 2023 unless you accept that the universes can reconnect.

If I understand it Right (i prob don’t) In that explanation Cap goes back to 1940s and immediately starts a new universe/dimension. I heard an explanation that I think suggests that this alternative dimension merges back with the original dimension in 2023 around the time the Cap is on the bench.

The issue of how Cap didn’t make any changes to the timeline is a head scratcher. But I think the less you think about it the better. Time travel should be accepted as a plot device and since it has unverifiable variables I don’t see the benefit of pulling it apart. We will all end up annoyed , confused or both!!!

Foxtrol · 29-04-2019 03:10PM

Drumpot wrote: »

There seems to be a couple of explanations of time travel. The ancient one suggested alternative universes are created once you go back in time and change the past. This makes sense in some regards but doesn’t explain how the Cap ended up back in 2023 unless you accept that the universes can reconnect.

If I understand it Right (i prob don’t) In that explanation Cap goes back to 1940s and immediately starts a new universe/dimension. I heard an explanation that I think suggests that this alternative dimension merges back with the original dimension in 2023 around the time the Cap is on the bench.

The issue of how Cap didn’t make any changes to the timeline is a head scratcher. But I think the less you think about it the better. Time travel should be accepted as a plot device and since it has unverifiable variables I don’t see the benefit of pulling it apart. We will all end up annoyed , confused or both!!!

Ancient One talks about the stones leaving a timeline and causing alternative universes, but this can be averted if they are all brought back right when they are taken. She doesn’t mention the actions of people themselves and the consistent statements in the movie is that any other action can’t change the past.

There’s no evidence in the previous movies that Cap isn’t living his life in the background until he reveals himself on the bench and Tony telling his Dad that saying points that there could be a time loop there, where past Tony impacted himself.

Drumpot · 29-04-2019 03:18PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Ancient One talks about the stones leaving a timeline and causing alternative universes, but this can be averted if they are all brought back right when they are taken. She doesn’t mention the actions of people themselves and the consistent statements in the movie is that any other action can’t change the past.

There’s no evidence in the previous movies that Cap isn’t living his life in the background until he reveals himself on the bench and Tony telling his Dad that saying points that there could be a time loop there, where past Tony impacted himself.

Was it banner or the ancient one who said that you can’t change the past?

Also did the ancient one not say that if you take a stone out of a timeline this is when the split universe happens?

Would that mean basically that if a stone isn’t taken then you aren’t altering a timeline (even if you go back in time) but it’s only if you take a stone that a new universe is made?

Avengers: Endgame [** SPOILERS FROM POST 613 **]

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Avengers: Endgame [ SPOILERS FROM POST 613 ]