Avengers: Endgame [ SPOILERS FROM POST 613 ]

Penn · 29-04-2019 10:52AM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Can you explain it to me like i am 5?

Why did taking the stones from the past not simply stop the snap from having happened in the first place? If effecting the past doesn't effect the present, how did Cap end up on the bench at the end?

I can't get my head around how both things are possible in the same scenario

It could be a predestination paradox, in that it was always destined to happen that they would travel back in time, take the stones and then return them. Hence they didn't disrupt the flow of time, because it was always part of the timeline. Even with Loki scarpering with the Tesseract; it may be a case that Loki ends up back there with the Tesseract, which means everything continues as normal and it's a case that that's always what happened, but we didn't know about it until now.

Patser · 29-04-2019 10:53AM

Ethereal Cereal wrote: »

A simple line to say this, then use Hulk's snap to undo the first snap completely. Like Tony actually says "Remember, only bring the vanished back to now, don't undo anything else from the last 5 years"... eh, why not?

This would have avoided the universe wide travesty that occurred after the initial snap, regardless of whether vanished were brought back or not.

I dont think it would have cheapened IW since all they are undoing are the events detailed in EndGame.

Stark was worried that he'd lose his daughter, all of the 5 years since the snap would somehow be changed/erased by undoing the snap. So those that had moved on, like Stark, would lose that which was new.

It's a paradox explored by, of all things l, the soppy Rom Com About Time, when Domhnall Gleeson's character in that time travels at 1 point, after becoming a family man, and returns to a different family. The kid he knew and loved, never having been born but a different one instead that he knew little about.

Penn · 29-04-2019 10:55AM

Ethereal Cereal wrote: »

A simple line to say this, then use Hulk's snap to undo the first snap completely. Like Tony actually says "Remember, only bring the vanished back to now, don't undo anything else from the last 5 years"... eh, why not?

His daughter. When he returned and agreed to help Cap, he did so on the condition that he can't lose what he's gotten the last 5 years. If they undid the snap completely and they go back 5 years, he loses his daughter. So they agreed, they'd bring everyone back, but without undoing the last 5 years.

TheIrishGrover · 29-04-2019 10:56AM

Midnight_EG wrote: »

Failing to understand this

Maybe it was just me. At the start when Black Widow was having the tele-conference with everyone Captain Marvel goes all Poochie (From Itchy and Scratchy) "You may not see me for some time" (ie: I'm gonna disappear 'cos I'm over-powered for this movie)

Sparko · 29-04-2019 11:04AM

Old man Cap should have just reappeared on the time machine, or just his shield with a note for Sam and then finish with the dancing with Peggy scene as they did.

Ethereal Cereal · 29-04-2019 11:08AM

Patser wrote: »

Stark was worried that he'd lose his daughter, all of the 5 years since the snap would somehow be changed/erased by undoing the snap. So those that had moved on, like Stark, would lose that which was new.

It's a paradox explored by, of all things l, the soppy Rom Com About Time, when Domhnall Gleeson's character in that time travels at 1 point, after becoming a family man, and returns to a different family. The kid he knew and loved, never having been born but a different one instead that he knew little about.

Yea, when I saw his 5 year old daughter, it had occurred to me that a plot point would be Tony having to sacrifice his own daughter for the sake of the universe but...

the writers didn't really explore this. She was bang on 5 years old, so it wasn't established was she pre or post snap. There was that discussion in IW about Pepper being pregnant. And I cant imagine Tony and Pepper deciding to have a child within the first year after the snap, with everything that was happening.

Also that means Tony really inflicted universe wide chaos all to keep his own daughter?

Penn · 29-04-2019 11:10AM

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

Maybe it was just me. At the start when Black Widow was having the tele-conference with everyone Captain Marvel goes all Poochie (From Itchy and Scratchy) "You may not see me for some time" (ie: I'm gonna disappear 'cos I'm over-powered for this movie)

In fairness, her reason for saying she wouldn't be there was very valid, especially considering Black Widow was showing concern for a slight underwater tremor, showing that she's almost just looking for things to try and fight/fix, whereas Cap.Marvel is trying to do so throughout the Universe and has bigger things to worry about. It made sense she'd bow out unless there was actually something serious. Though they could have thrown in a line about trying and failing to contact her to help with getting the stones in the past once they did start coming up with a plan.

Patser · 29-04-2019 11:15AM

Ethereal Cereal wrote: »

Also that means Tony really inflicted universe wide chaos all to keep his own daughter?

Keep every 5 year or younger kid alive in the Galaxy, you mean - everyone lost in the snap was restored exactly as they were, whereas everyone who didn't disappear were now 5 years older but with all that they'd gained in that time.

Hence why Hawkeye gets his family back exactly as they were, but they get a 5 year older Dad with a terrible haircut, while Antman now has a surprisingly adult looking daughter, probably in her teens after leaving a cute 6-8 year old behind when he entered the quantum realm. Equally Rocket still has to deal with a teen Groot, whereas Groot has a much taller Rocket than I remember waiting for him

Gbear · 29-04-2019 11:21AM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Can you explain it to me like i am 5?

Why did taking the stones from the past not simply stop the snap from having happened in the first place? If effecting the past doesn't effect the present, how did Cap end up on the bench at the end?

I can't get my head around how both things are possible in the same scenario

They didn't travel into their past. Every trip they made was it's own self-contained universe.

There was no overlap between them.

Imagine a spreadsheet. It has 1000 people's names in one column and their birthday in the column next to it.

You accidentally delete the birthday column.

You're on version 20 of this spreadsheet.

You go to version 19, copy the data from there and paste it into version 20.

Nothing you do has any impact except the data you're copying and pasting because they're their own separate files and not linked in any way.

However, in the Avengers case, you can't copy and paste stones, so they had to borrow and return them, because other wise that universe would've been ****ed.

On the bench thing I'm not sure. That's either one plothole they added for the sake of a shot they probably didn't need, or maybe he just found another way home when Peggy died.

They could've just as easily done it so that he reappeared in the same machine when their backs were turned 5 minutes later instead of having him pop out of thin air.

johnny_ultimate · 29-04-2019 11:25AM

Patser wrote: »

Keep every 5 year or younger kid alive in the Galaxy, you mean - everyone lost in the snap was restored exactly as they were, whereas everyone who didn't disappear were now 5 years older but with all that they'd gained in that time

Some of the bleak side consequences of the snap reversal are interesting - the non-snapped who died during the five years; those who return to find their world up-ended (people who’ve moved on etc)... A lot of people returning from their five year timeout to discover a pretty ****ed up world no doubt. Although reckon that sort of grim stuff is better handled by the likes of The Leftovers than the popcorn heroics of the MCU.

MaceFace · 29-04-2019 11:26AM

Firstly - I really liked the movie. No idea how it will hold up to multiple viewings (I've watched many MCU movies 10+ times each, but not sure if there is enough "action" in this to keep my switched off brain going.

So...
I wasn't so much bothered about the time travel bit as put it down to the multi-verse concept. Happy to generally go with that.

What I was thinking more about is what do 50% of the world do when they suddenly appear?

Did they come back confused? Everyone controlling a car/plane etc. will probably end up crashing.
People will reappear in places where there are now objects/buildings now - all dead. Likewise on bridges etc that are no longer there. Dead
Not enough food for the sudden increase. No jobs. Dead
What about the folks who moved into the empty house down the street or moved in with the neighbour?

Zubeneschamali · 29-04-2019 11:27AM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Can you explain it to me like i am 5?

No-one can explain it because it makes no sense.

And they had the gall to slag off Back to the Future, which has a consistent version of time travel.

If effecting the past doesn't effect the present, how did Cap end up on the bench at the end?

It makes no sense except for this - this is easy with any version of time travel. We never saw Peggy's husband in any of the movies - turns out it was Steve all along.

silverharp · 29-04-2019 11:29AM

The more you think of it the more complications there are, the population of earth just doubled, how will they be fed?

NuMarvel · 29-04-2019 11:32AM

Gbear wrote: »

They didn't travel into their past. Every trip they made was it's own self-contained universe.

That's not how it's explained in the film though. You might be right, and time travel in the comics originally worked that way so that may have been the intention. But there's nothing in the movie that we can point to to say this is how it works.

And the other issue is that if time travel means going to alternate universes, then in which universe did Cap marry Peggy and grow old? If it's another one, then how did he get back to ours?

Gbear · 29-04-2019 11:32AM

silverharp wrote: »

The more you think of it the more complications there are, the population of earth just doubled, how will they be fed?

There's also double the number of cows.

NuMarvel · 29-04-2019 11:33AM

silverharp wrote: »

The more you think of it the more complications there are, the population of earth just doubled, how will they be fed?

It was established at the start of the movie that there are now more whales

.

Gbear · 29-04-2019 11:36AM

NuMarvel wrote: »

That's not how it's explained in the film though. You might be right, and time travel in the comics originally worked that way so that may have been the intention. But there's nothing in the movie that we can point to to say this is how it works.

It is, both in the time travel explanation scene with Bruce, Ant-Man, Rhodey and Hawkeye, and then later with the Ancient One and Ghost-Bruce.

NuMarvel wrote: »

And the other issue is that if time travel means going to alternate universes, then in which universe did Cap marry Peggy and grow old? If it's another one, then how did he get back to ours?

That scene appears to break the rules they were at pains to set out previously, purely for the sake of a reveal that "OMG! HE'S OLD NOW! AND WISTFULLY STARING OFF INTO THE DISTANCE!".

Other than that, they're fairly explicit about the whole thing. I don't really know why they elected to break it there at the finish for a shot they could've otherwise achieved.

ondafly · 29-04-2019 11:37AM

I am so glad I can accept this movie on face value.

Personally I was taken out of the movie, when I think Paul Rudd was pulling along a green trolley cart. We use that exact one in work, and its always going missing and causing rows over who used it last. Feckin Rudd did.

Patser · 29-04-2019 11:38AM

Gbear wrote: »

There's also double the number of cows.

Yep, Antman comments that Hulks snap must have worked as he sees a lot more birds on the tree, so 50% of animals must have disappeared in the Thanos snap and are now back, along with all the extra Whales etc born over the previous 5 years with less humans eating them (or moping about depressed)

silverharp · 29-04-2019 11:40AM

that would help , it included all life so including plants, so you would have a weird situation of trees and crops that disappeared 5 years ago suddenly reappearing.

Zubeneschamali · 29-04-2019 11:42AM

Gbear wrote: »

They didn't travel into their past. Every trip they made was it's own self-contained universe.

There was no overlap between them.

No, Steve living out his life here and arriving on the park bench clearly shows it is time travel.

Howard Stark remembers the comment Tony makes (as Potts) about what his Dad used to say and repeats it his son, clearly our Tony, in a time loop.

Zubeneschamali · 29-04-2019 11:45AM

Gbear wrote: »

It is, both in the time travel explanation scene with Bruce, Ant-Man, Rhodey and Hawkeye, and then later with the Ancient One and Ghost-Bruce.

Bruce is literally talking in gobbledegook, it means nothing.

The Ancient One actually draws the timeline diagram from Back to the Future II!

(She is also talking rubbish, Thanos doesn't just remove the stones, he destroys them yet the Earth is not overrun by the Dark Dimensions even though she and Strange are both dead.)

29-04-2019 11:49AM

Ethereal Cereal wrote: »

Yea, when I saw his 5 year old daughter, it had occurred to me that a plot point would be Tony having to sacrifice his own daughter for the sake of the universe but...

the writers didn't really explore this. She was bang on 5 years old, so it wasn't established was she pre or post snap. There was that discussion in IW about Pepper being pregnant. And I cant imagine Tony and Pepper deciding to have a child within the first year after the snap, with everything that was happening.

Also that means Tony really inflicted universe wide chaos all to keep his own daughter?

As I said a few pages back, if someone asked me to sacrifice my child I would say "f*ck your timeline"

micks_address · 29-04-2019 11:52AM

i thought it might have been a more interesting end if cap disappeared and black widow re appeared in his place..

Penn · 29-04-2019 11:54AM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

(She is also talking rubbish, Thanos doesn't just remove the stones, he destroys them yet the Earth is not overrun by the Dark Dimensions even though she and Strange are both dead.)

There are other Sorcerers likely defending each from threats, but I also think The Ancient One was more so saying that if the Time Stone is removed from her in the past, then occasions where she/Strange would have used the stone against threats between 2012 and the future, they then wouldn't have the stone. Hence why it's agreed they have to return the stone back to right when it was taken from.

alchemist33 · 29-04-2019 12:00PM

I agree with Gbear's explanantion of things. Overall they did the time travel well - recovering the stones to undo the snap, rather than just going back and preventing it all happening, was a big plus for the film. But Cap's return was a mistake in their use of time travel and some of what Tilda Swinton's character said didn't hang together either.

Re characters being easily able to return to their own timeline, I think this was that the quantum machine pulled them back, rather than them having to navigate the multiverse to find their own world.

Mitch Connor · 29-04-2019 12:05PM

Penn wrote: »

There are other Sorcerers likely defending each from threats, but I also think The Ancient One was more so saying that if the Time Stone is removed from her in the past, then occasions where she/Strange would have used the stone against threats between 2012 and the future, they then wouldn't have the stone. Hence why it's agreed they have to return the stone back to right when it was taken from.

My memory of it is that the stones are tied to the fabric of that reality and that removing a stone (any stone) would have dire consequences - which is why they were returned.

Big issue with Thanos destorying them - but it could be that the energy that they are made of was returned to the universe, so they are not removed but also cannot be used. Speculation with no basis for that, really, though.

kerplun k · 29-04-2019 12:24PM

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Some of the bleak side consequences of the snap reversal are interesting - the non-snapped who died during the five years; those who return to find their world up-ended (people who’ve moved on etc)... A lot of people returning from their five year timeout to discover a pretty ****ed up world no doubt. Although reckon that sort of grim stuff is better handled by the likes of The Leftovers than the popcorn heroics of the MCU.

Tis would make a great TV show.

NuMarvel · 29-04-2019 12:26PM

Gbear wrote: »

It is, both in the time travel explanation scene with Bruce, Ant-Man, Rhodey and Hawkeye, and then later with the Ancient One and Ghost-Bruce.

I don't remember any mention of alternate universes in Bruce's first explanation. He didn't really explain it at all, just said that things won't change, because your past is the present, and the present is your future or something like that.

And I took the Ancient One's warnings to be specific to removing the stones, and not time travel in general.

But it's possible I missed some stuff while being outraged at Banner trash talking Back to the Future. :mad::mad:

Zubeneschamali · 29-04-2019 01:03PM

Penn wrote: »

There are other Sorcerers likely defending each from threats, but I also think The Ancient One was more so saying that if the Time Stone is removed from her in the past, then occasions where she/Strange would have used the stone against threats between 2012 and the future, they then wouldn't have the stone. Hence why it's agreed they have to return the stone back to right when it was taken from.

But the stone is destroyed by Thanos in the first act, she is dead, Strange is dust, yet even without the Ancient One, Strange and the stone, no bad things overrun the earth while everyone is moping around.

She is wrong.

Avengers: Endgame [** SPOILERS FROM POST 613 **]

Comments

Avengers: Endgame [ SPOILERS FROM POST 613 ]