Avengers: Endgame [ SPOILERS FROM POST 613 ]

B-D-P-- · 29-04-2019 09:06AM

I so so so so so so want to go for pints with Korg

29-04-2019 09:25AM

B-D-P-- wrote: »

I so so so so so so want to go for pints with Korg

I wish we could have real Korg and Meek (especially Meek, to be honest, given his storyline)

Baggly · 29-04-2019 09:30AM

Meek's dead. He got stomped on the bridge.

Oh no wait he isnt!

Hercule Poirot · 29-04-2019 10:00AM

I've had time to think about it and now that I've calmed down I've realised that it's a convoluted mess - if you have time travel in a film then the film must establish it's own rules about time travel and stick to them, this doesn't come close to doing it - I have very little desire to watch this film a second time

Gbear · 29-04-2019 10:51AM

The time travel is really, really straight forward and is explained in quite a lot of detail.

I'm not a genius. It's just not complicated.

I'm baffled how anyone is having any trouble understanding it.

Mitch Connor · 29-04-2019 10:59AM

Gbear wrote: »

The time travel is really, really straight forward and is explained in quite a lot of detail.

I'm not a genius. It's just not complicated.

I'm baffled how anyone is having any trouble understanding it.

Can you explain it to me like i am 5?

Why did taking the stones from the past not simply stop the snap from having happened in the first place? If effecting the past doesn't effect the present, how did Cap end up on the bench at the end?

I can't get my head around how both things are possible in the same scenario

NuMarvel · 29-04-2019 11:37AM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Can you explain it to me like i am 5?

Why did taking the stones from the past not simply stop the snap from having happened in the first place? If effecting the past doesn't effect the present, how did Cap end up on the bench at the end?

I can't get my head around how both things are possible in the same scenario

As far as I can tell, there are two sets of time travel rules; one for the stones, and one for everything else.

1) the stones protect the flow of time, and taking the stones out of the timeline messes things up. So they have to be put back. That's based on the conversation between the Ancient One and Banner during the Battle of New York.

2) Otherwise, changing events in the past doesn't change the present. That's based on the lecture Banner gives when War Machine asks why don't they travel back in time to kill baby Thanos. That also explains why 2014 Thanos can die in his future without changing the fact that 2018 Thanos still uses the stones.

I don't think the second one really isn't explained well in the movie. Banner spouts some mumbo jumbo about your past being your present, and your present being your future, and Nebula rolls her eyes at the stupid Terrans.

I wouldn't overthink it. It's a plot device to let them time travel without worrying about changing the continuity of the movies. The different rules for the stones is presumably to give Cap a reason to travel back in time again and live out his life with Peggy.

In the words of the world's foremost expert on time travel: It's all wibbly wobbly, timey wimey.

TheIrishGrover · 29-04-2019 11:47AM

Ethereal Cereal · 29-04-2019 11:48AM

NuMarvel wrote: »

As far as I can tell, there are two sets of time travel rules; one for the stones, and one for everything else.

1) the stones protect the flow of time, and taking the stones out of the timeline messes things up. So they have to be put back. That's based on the conversation between the Ancient One and Banner during the Battle of New York.

2) Otherwise, changing events in the past doesn't change the present. That's based on the lecture Banner gives when War Machine asks why don't they travel back in time to kill baby Thanos. That also explains why 2014 Thanos can die in his future without changing the fact that 2018 Thanos still uses the stones.

I don't think the second one really isn't explained well in the movie. Banner spouts some mumbo jumbo about your past being your present, and your present being your future, and Nebula rolls her eyes at the stupid Terrans.

I wouldn't overthink it. It's a plot device to let them time travel without worrying about changing the continuity of the movies. The different rules for the stones is presumably to give Cap a reason to travel back in time again and live out his life with Peggy.

In the words of the world's foremost expert on time travel: It's all wibbly wobbly, timey wimey.

Yea, the time travel mechanics in this movie are a mess. And if your going to use time travel as a plot device, you have to have your movie internal logic at %100. Take Terminator 1 as a fantastic example of time travel, probably one of the best movie examples I can think of.

On your points above, I don't think the writers intended for time travel to have different mechanics depending on whether you use the stones to time travel or not, but I think there should have been.

A simple line to say this, then use Hulk's snap to undo the first snap completely. Like Tony actually says "Remember, only bring the vanished back to now, don't undo anything else from the last 5 years"... eh, why not?

This would have avoided the universe wide travesty that occurred after the initial snap, regardless of whether vanished were brought back or not.

I dont think it would have cheapened IW since all they are undoing are the events detailed in EndGame.

Midnight_EG · 29-04-2019 11:49AM

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

Failing to understand this

correction · 29-04-2019 11:50AM

It's certainly a one time watch. A very emotionally satisfying and exciting movie which does it's job perfectly on the first viewing. Sure it won't stand up to more viewings but I don't think it needs to.

Penn · 29-04-2019 11:52AM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Can you explain it to me like i am 5?

Why did taking the stones from the past not simply stop the snap from having happened in the first place? If effecting the past doesn't effect the present, how did Cap end up on the bench at the end?

I can't get my head around how both things are possible in the same scenario

It could be a predestination paradox, in that it was always destined to happen that they would travel back in time, take the stones and then return them. Hence they didn't disrupt the flow of time, because it was always part of the timeline. Even with Loki scarpering with the Tesseract; it may be a case that Loki ends up back there with the Tesseract, which means everything continues as normal and it's a case that that's always what happened, but we didn't know about it until now.

Patser · 29-04-2019 11:53AM

Ethereal Cereal wrote: »

A simple line to say this, then use Hulk's snap to undo the first snap completely. Like Tony actually says "Remember, only bring the vanished back to now, don't undo anything else from the last 5 years"... eh, why not?

This would have avoided the universe wide travesty that occurred after the initial snap, regardless of whether vanished were brought back or not.

I dont think it would have cheapened IW since all they are undoing are the events detailed in EndGame.

Stark was worried that he'd lose his daughter, all of the 5 years since the snap would somehow be changed/erased by undoing the snap. So those that had moved on, like Stark, would lose that which was new.

It's a paradox explored by, of all things l, the soppy Rom Com About Time, when Domhnall Gleeson's character in that time travels at 1 point, after becoming a family man, and returns to a different family. The kid he knew and loved, never having been born but a different one instead that he knew little about.

Penn · 29-04-2019 11:55AM

Ethereal Cereal wrote: »

A simple line to say this, then use Hulk's snap to undo the first snap completely. Like Tony actually says "Remember, only bring the vanished back to now, don't undo anything else from the last 5 years"... eh, why not?

His daughter. When he returned and agreed to help Cap, he did so on the condition that he can't lose what he's gotten the last 5 years. If they undid the snap completely and they go back 5 years, he loses his daughter. So they agreed, they'd bring everyone back, but without undoing the last 5 years.

TheIrishGrover · 29-04-2019 11:56AM

Midnight_EG wrote: »

Failing to understand this

Maybe it was just me. At the start when Black Widow was having the tele-conference with everyone Captain Marvel goes all Poochie (From Itchy and Scratchy) "You may not see me for some time" (ie: I'm gonna disappear 'cos I'm over-powered for this movie)

Sparko · 29-04-2019 12:04PM

Old man Cap should have just reappeared on the time machine, or just his shield with a note for Sam and then finish with the dancing with Peggy scene as they did.

Ethereal Cereal · 29-04-2019 12:08PM

Patser wrote: »

Stark was worried that he'd lose his daughter, all of the 5 years since the snap would somehow be changed/erased by undoing the snap. So those that had moved on, like Stark, would lose that which was new.

It's a paradox explored by, of all things l, the soppy Rom Com About Time, when Domhnall Gleeson's character in that time travels at 1 point, after becoming a family man, and returns to a different family. The kid he knew and loved, never having been born but a different one instead that he knew little about.

Yea, when I saw his 5 year old daughter, it had occurred to me that a plot point would be Tony having to sacrifice his own daughter for the sake of the universe but...

the writers didn't really explore this. She was bang on 5 years old, so it wasn't established was she pre or post snap. There was that discussion in IW about Pepper being pregnant. And I cant imagine Tony and Pepper deciding to have a child within the first year after the snap, with everything that was happening.

Also that means Tony really inflicted universe wide chaos all to keep his own daughter?

Penn · 29-04-2019 12:10PM

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

Maybe it was just me. At the start when Black Widow was having the tele-conference with everyone Captain Marvel goes all Poochie (From Itchy and Scratchy) "You may not see me for some time" (ie: I'm gonna disappear 'cos I'm over-powered for this movie)

In fairness, her reason for saying she wouldn't be there was very valid, especially considering Black Widow was showing concern for a slight underwater tremor, showing that she's almost just looking for things to try and fight/fix, whereas Cap.Marvel is trying to do so throughout the Universe and has bigger things to worry about. It made sense she'd bow out unless there was actually something serious. Though they could have thrown in a line about trying and failing to contact her to help with getting the stones in the past once they did start coming up with a plan.

Patser · 29-04-2019 12:15PM

Ethereal Cereal wrote: »

Also that means Tony really inflicted universe wide chaos all to keep his own daughter?

Keep every 5 year or younger kid alive in the Galaxy, you mean - everyone lost in the snap was restored exactly as they were, whereas everyone who didn't disappear were now 5 years older but with all that they'd gained in that time.

Hence why Hawkeye gets his family back exactly as they were, but they get a 5 year older Dad with a terrible haircut, while Antman now has a surprisingly adult looking daughter, probably in her teens after leaving a cute 6-8 year old behind when he entered the quantum realm. Equally Rocket still has to deal with a teen Groot, whereas Groot has a much taller Rocket than I remember waiting for him

Gbear · 29-04-2019 12:21PM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Can you explain it to me like i am 5?

Why did taking the stones from the past not simply stop the snap from having happened in the first place? If effecting the past doesn't effect the present, how did Cap end up on the bench at the end?

I can't get my head around how both things are possible in the same scenario

They didn't travel into their past. Every trip they made was it's own self-contained universe.

There was no overlap between them.

Imagine a spreadsheet. It has 1000 people's names in one column and their birthday in the column next to it.

You accidentally delete the birthday column.

You're on version 20 of this spreadsheet.

You go to version 19, copy the data from there and paste it into version 20.

Nothing you do has any impact except the data you're copying and pasting because they're their own separate files and not linked in any way.

However, in the Avengers case, you can't copy and paste stones, so they had to borrow and return them, because other wise that universe would've been ****ed.

On the bench thing I'm not sure. That's either one plothole they added for the sake of a shot they probably didn't need, or maybe he just found another way home when Peggy died.

They could've just as easily done it so that he reappeared in the same machine when their backs were turned 5 minutes later instead of having him pop out of thin air.

johnny_ultimate · 29-04-2019 12:25PM

Patser wrote: »

Keep every 5 year or younger kid alive in the Galaxy, you mean - everyone lost in the snap was restored exactly as they were, whereas everyone who didn't disappear were now 5 years older but with all that they'd gained in that time

Some of the bleak side consequences of the snap reversal are interesting - the non-snapped who died during the five years; those who return to find their world up-ended (people who’ve moved on etc)... A lot of people returning from their five year timeout to discover a pretty ****ed up world no doubt. Although reckon that sort of grim stuff is better handled by the likes of The Leftovers than the popcorn heroics of the MCU.

MaceFace · 29-04-2019 12:26PM

Firstly - I really liked the movie. No idea how it will hold up to multiple viewings (I've watched many MCU movies 10+ times each, but not sure if there is enough "action" in this to keep my switched off brain going.

So...
I wasn't so much bothered about the time travel bit as put it down to the multi-verse concept. Happy to generally go with that.

What I was thinking more about is what do 50% of the world do when they suddenly appear?

Did they come back confused? Everyone controlling a car/plane etc. will probably end up crashing.
People will reappear in places where there are now objects/buildings now - all dead. Likewise on bridges etc that are no longer there. Dead
Not enough food for the sudden increase. No jobs. Dead
What about the folks who moved into the empty house down the street or moved in with the neighbour?

Zubeneschamali · 29-04-2019 12:27PM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Can you explain it to me like i am 5?

No-one can explain it because it makes no sense.

And they had the gall to slag off Back to the Future, which has a consistent version of time travel.

If effecting the past doesn't effect the present, how did Cap end up on the bench at the end?

It makes no sense except for this - this is easy with any version of time travel. We never saw Peggy's husband in any of the movies - turns out it was Steve all along.

silverharp · 29-04-2019 12:29PM

The more you think of it the more complications there are, the population of earth just doubled, how will they be fed?

NuMarvel · 29-04-2019 12:32PM

Gbear wrote: »

They didn't travel into their past. Every trip they made was it's own self-contained universe.

That's not how it's explained in the film though. You might be right, and time travel in the comics originally worked that way so that may have been the intention. But there's nothing in the movie that we can point to to say this is how it works.

And the other issue is that if time travel means going to alternate universes, then in which universe did Cap marry Peggy and grow old? If it's another one, then how did he get back to ours?

Gbear · 29-04-2019 12:32PM

silverharp wrote: »

The more you think of it the more complications there are, the population of earth just doubled, how will they be fed?

There's also double the number of cows.

NuMarvel · 29-04-2019 12:33PM

silverharp wrote: »

The more you think of it the more complications there are, the population of earth just doubled, how will they be fed?

It was established at the start of the movie that there are now more whales

.

Gbear · 29-04-2019 12:36PM

NuMarvel wrote: »

That's not how it's explained in the film though. You might be right, and time travel in the comics originally worked that way so that may have been the intention. But there's nothing in the movie that we can point to to say this is how it works.

It is, both in the time travel explanation scene with Bruce, Ant-Man, Rhodey and Hawkeye, and then later with the Ancient One and Ghost-Bruce.

NuMarvel wrote: »

And the other issue is that if time travel means going to alternate universes, then in which universe did Cap marry Peggy and grow old? If it's another one, then how did he get back to ours?

That scene appears to break the rules they were at pains to set out previously, purely for the sake of a reveal that "OMG! HE'S OLD NOW! AND WISTFULLY STARING OFF INTO THE DISTANCE!".

Other than that, they're fairly explicit about the whole thing. I don't really know why they elected to break it there at the finish for a shot they could've otherwise achieved.

ondafly · 29-04-2019 12:37PM

I am so glad I can accept this movie on face value.

Personally I was taken out of the movie, when I think Paul Rudd was pulling along a green trolley cart. We use that exact one in work, and its always going missing and causing rows over who used it last. Feckin Rudd did.

Patser · 29-04-2019 12:38PM

Gbear wrote: »

There's also double the number of cows.

Yep, Antman comments that Hulks snap must have worked as he sees a lot more birds on the tree, so 50% of animals must have disappeared in the Thanos snap and are now back, along with all the extra Whales etc born over the previous 5 years with less humans eating them (or moping about depressed)

Avengers: Endgame [** SPOILERS FROM POST 613 **]

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Avengers: Endgame [ SPOILERS FROM POST 613 ]