Luas Red Line extension to Rathcoole

delganycharlie · 24-04-2019 11:23pm #1

Would an extension of the Luas Red Line to Rathcoole ever come about? It would obviously be beneficial to the residents of Rathcoole and I really can't see any problems with adding one extra stop.

Thrashssacre · 25-04-2019 1:41am

delganycharlie wrote: »

Would an extension of the Luas Red Line to Rathcoole ever come about? It would obviously be beneficial to the residents of Rathcoole and I really can't see any problems with adding one extra stop.

How? There’s no route available for the route, it’s hardly worth it for the amount of trouble it would be a mini bus shuttling back and forth between the saggart stop and rathcoole/Newcastle would be the only feasible solution there.

delganycharlie · 25-04-2019 3:01am

Thrashssacre wrote: »

How? There’s no route available for the route, it’s hardly worth it for the amount of trouble it would be a mini bus shuttling back and forth between the saggart stop and rathcoole/Newcastle would be the only feasible solution there.

How is there no available route?

Also, what do you mean by Rathcoole/Newcastle?

Victor · 25-04-2019 3:57am

The NTA had previously suggested it be extended to Greenogue: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/53.2964/-6.4741 however, much of the developement there has been warehouse-based, with lowish employment density compared to other industrial areas.

Thrashssacre · 25-04-2019 4:03am

delganycharlie wrote: »

How is there no available route?

Also, what do you mean by Rathcoole/Newcastle?

Go on google maps and show me you’re proposed route that doesn’t involve bulldozing.

And I mean I route which serves rathcoole and Newcastle. Both are served by hourly Dublin bus services therefore both have as much to gain by such a route.

Dats me · 25-04-2019 9:41am

Anytime I've used the red line at rush hour it's also been absolutely rammed - so I'd assume that would have to be a consideration?

Idbatterim · 03-05-2019 11:49am

living out in the Rathcoole area and the transport is a JOKE! I get a lift to the luas red cow when going to down and dont want to drive, wont ever take the bus again, I am not interested in a tour of west dublin on the way!

There should be an express bus, you can walk out onto the N7 and take it. I wouldnt build the luas to rathcoole, but its a farce that there isnt an express bus option!

Victor · 03-05-2019 1:59pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

living out in the Rathcoole area and the transport is a JOKE! I get a lift to the luas red cow when going to down and dont want to drive, wont ever take the bus again, I am not interested in a tour of west dublin on the way!

There should be an express bus, you can walk out onto the N7 and take it. I wouldnt build the luas to rathcoole, but its a farce that there isnt an express bus option!

Very limited service, but there is: http://dublinbus.ie/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/69x-/

Thrashssacre · 03-05-2019 2:17pm

Bus connects should partly rectify this problem with a proposed short route from saggart Luas to rathcoole and the orbital route from tallaght to maynooth via city west, saggart, rathcoole, Newcastle and Celbridge.

Idbatterim · 03-05-2019 3:50pm

Thrashssacre wrote: »

Bus connects should partly rectify this problem with a proposed short route from saggart Luas to rathcoole and the orbital route from tallaght to maynooth via city west, saggart, rathcoole, Newcastle and Celbridge.

Personally I wouldn’t bother changing mode. Yes if it was to something like a Dublin metro heading eastwards. But I wouldn’t change mode to get onto the glacial luas. That must take forty fives mins to hit central Dublin from Citywest ?

crowe79 · 07-05-2019 2:13pm

Victor wrote: »

The NTA had previously suggested it be extended to Greenogue: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/53.2964/-6.4741 however, much of the developement there has been warehouse-based, with lowish employment density compared to other industrial areas.

I think this extension would be a great idea. And if it could be extended another 4.5-5 kms could connect the red line with Hazelhatch train station. Commuters from the South West going to Tallaght and Citywest would have a much quicker route instead of having to go all the way into Hueston.

JohnC. · 07-05-2019 7:56pm

Is there a realistic limit to how far these extensions can go? I don't mean in terms of people capacity, but just the time it takes to cover the distance?

Victor · 07-05-2019 9:12pm

It depends on how many stops you have. The existing trams can do 70km/h, whereas the local roads are 60-80km/h. Realistically, you would be looking at maybe 6-7 stops.

riddlinrussell · 08-05-2019 11:01am

crowe79 wrote: »

I think this extension would be a great idea. And if it could be extended another 4.5-5 kms could connect the red line with Hazelhatch train station. Commuters from the South West going to Tallaght and Citywest would have a much quicker route instead of having to go all the way into Hueston.

I would think a better case could be made for running along the front of the Grange Castle Business park and up to Clondalkin/Fonthill station?

bk · 08-05-2019 11:15am

Is the red line not already at max capacity at peak time and there is no easy way to increase it?

That would stop any extension south. (East is possible as most people get off by O'Connell St).

riddlinrussell · 08-05-2019 11:33am

bk wrote: »

Is the red line not already at max capacity at peak time and there is no easy way to increase it?

That would stop any extension south. (East is possible as most people get off by O'Connell St).

I don't know if this is a reasonable suggestion, or if there are any examples of it being done and actually working... but would a high frequency bus route linking say... Belgard Interchange, Clondalkin/Fonthill DART (Via a 'car free' Clondalkin Centre) and a future Lucan Luas line make any sense to distribute loading? The proposed routes all 'meet-up' near Heuston anyway... maybe too impractical though...

EDIT: And I mean a truly high frequency bus with a high capacity corridor, one every 3-4 mins at peak times and taking approximately 5-10 mins each to get from Belgard - Fonthill - Adamstown Luas

bk · 08-05-2019 12:32pm

I'm not at all convinced we will see a Lucan Luas and certainly not the originally proposed design that shared the Red line from Hueston will happen unfortunately. I'm not sure how they could squeeze even more Luas into that already busy corridor. Specially with it crossing the Green Line twice now.

I suspect that idea was pre Luas Cross City and pre current high frequencies. I'd suspect if we ever do get a Lucan Luas, it will be on a different alignment now.

EDIT: I just remembered now, wasn't the previously preferred alignment, basically down Christcurch, Dame Street to College Green. I don't think that overlapped with the Red Line.

And yes, that would take some strain off the red line. But maybe not enough. It was DART Underground that was supposed to take the strain off the Red Line.

crowe79 · 08-05-2019 1:51pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

I would think a better case could be made for running along the front of the Grange Castle Business park and up to Clondalkin/Fonthill station?

I think anywhere its possible to link up the existing infrastructure is a good idea. Connecting Fonthill/Clondalkin with the Luas would be great. And given the number of people working in Grange Castle, connecting it with the Luas would make a lot of sense too.

marno21 · 11-05-2019 4:55pm

bk wrote: »

I'm not at all convinced we will see a Lucan Luas and certainly not the originally proposed design that shared the Red line from Hueston will happen unfortunately. I'm not sure how they could squeeze even more Luas into that already busy corridor. Specially with it crossing the Green Line twice now.

I suspect that idea was pre Luas Cross City and pre current high frequencies. I'd suspect if we ever do get a Lucan Luas, it will be on a different alignment now.

EDIT: I just remembered now, wasn't the previously preferred alignment, basically down Christcurch, Dame Street to College Green. I don't think that overlapped with the Red Line.

And yes, that would take some strain off the red line. But maybe not enough. It was DART Underground that was supposed to take the strain off the Red Line.

A Luas Lucan connecting with DART at Parkmore or Inchicore when the DART tunnel is built would surely be an option.

Sharing the track from Heuston in with the existing Red Line is surely out of the question.

Victor · 11-05-2019 7:36pm

marno21 wrote: »

Sharing the track from Heuston in with the existing Red Line is surely out of the question.

Blackhorse-Heuston isn't a particular problem, Heuston to the city is only a problem at peak times, but even then they could take the place of the Heuston-Connolly shuttles.

Possibly unpopular, but some Lucan-Blackhorse trams could also be shuttles if DART underground was built, as many people would change at Inchicore.

Lord Glentoran · 11-05-2019 8:30pm

Victor wrote: »

Blackhorse-Heuston isn't a particular problem, Heuston to the city is only a problem at peak times, but even then they could take the place of the Heuston-Connolly shuttles.

Possibly unpopular, but some Lucan-Blackhorse trams could also be shuttles if DART underground was built, as many people would change at Inchicore.

I think alas Victor we have more chance of Vertical Take Off and Landing Commuter Planes in Dublin than seeing DART-U in any of our lifetimes.

How many times can a commuter rail service be kicked like a tin can down the road in Ireland? The answer would appear to be any number of times.

LXFlyer · 13-05-2019 8:14am

Victor wrote: »

Blackhorse-Heuston isn't a particular problem, Heuston to the city is only a problem at peak times, but even then they could take the place of the Heuston-Connolly shuttles.

Possibly unpopular, but some Lucan-Blackhorse trams could also be shuttles if DART underground was built, as many people would change at Inchicore.

There is only one scheduled return Connolly-Heuston working in the morning peak, so let’s get that possibility out of the way first. Not a hope of operating the two lines along that section.

I also seriously doubt whether Blackhorse-Fatima is realistic given the pressure it would put on the at grade crossing at Suir Road. Doubling the trams there would cause mayhem, and that’s even before you consider running on-street between Bow Lane and College Green.

I’ll be honest, I don’t see this line ever happening. It’s fraught with too many issues that would affect operational performance.

cgcsb · 15-05-2019 2:01pm

An on street tram network stretching out beyond the M50, especially as far as Saggart was a ridiculous decision. Metrolink sought to undo this decision by converting part of the Green line to metro, thus reducing the length of on street trams.

If we're building new luas lines a good start would be a new east-west line in the City Centre, say Ringsend to James's, then extend the red line from the point to Ringsend and then you have really high capacity east-west tram movements.
Certianly UCD-City Centre and Coolock-City Centre are long overdue an upgrade to light rail, maybe join them together through the IFSC area to create a new north-south axis. Tallaght-Beaumont should be connected by a new metro line

For a Rathcoole-City Centre journey a frequent bus from Rathcoole to Talalght should be a given.

riddlinrussell · 16-05-2019 10:37am

cgcsb wrote: »

An on street tram network stretching out beyond the M50, especially as far as Saggart was a ridiculous decision. Metrolink sought to undo this decision by converting part of the Green line to metro, thus reducing the length of on street trams.

If we're building new luas lines a good start would be a new east-west line in the City Centre, say Ringsend to James's, then extend the red line from the point to Ringsend and then you have really high capacity east-west tram movements.
Certianly UCD-City Centre and Coolock-City Centre are long overdue an upgrade to light rail, maybe join them together through the IFSC area to create a new north-south axis. Tallaght-Beaumont should be connected by a new metro line

For a Rathcoole-City Centre journey a frequent bus from Rathcoole to Talalght should be a given.

Multi mode journeys need to become the norm for city journeys Ireland wide, flat fare leap card should really help with this as long as frequencies are relatively high and reliable.

cgcsb · 16-05-2019 10:43am

A new East West line is complicated by the college green issue and a lack of appetite for the disruption in this climate. I'm sure that will change though.

blanch152 · 16-05-2019 1:08pm

bk wrote: »

I'm not at all convinced we will see a Lucan Luas and certainly not the originally proposed design that shared the Red line from Hueston will happen unfortunately. I'm not sure how they could squeeze even more Luas into that already busy corridor. Specially with it crossing the Green Line twice now.

I suspect that idea was pre Luas Cross City and pre current high frequencies. I'd suspect if we ever do get a Lucan Luas, it will be on a different alignment now.

EDIT: I just remembered now, wasn't the previously preferred alignment, basically down Christcurch, Dame Street to College Green. I don't think that overlapped with the Red Line.

And yes, that would take some strain off the red line. But maybe not enough. It was DART Underground that was supposed to take the strain off the Red Line.

A better solution would be to take the Red Line down Dame Street to College Green. The Lucan Luas could use the Red Line from the Point and head out St. Johns' Road West/Chapelizod Bypass to Ballyfermot.

The section of the Luas up by the side of Dr. Steevens Hospital would then be unused.

gjim · 16-05-2019 2:58pm

Adding extensions to the ends of current Luas lines only makes sense if the existing infrastructure is under-utilised. If a significant section of the line is already at capacity, then funnelling more passengers into the end of the line will just displace some existing passengers for much of the route.

Thinking in terms of cost-benefit - the benefit being an increase in the overall throughput of passengers - then adding new independent radial Luas routes to the system makes much more sense.

Anyway, a tram system is a poor mode for long distance commuting - the average speed on the red Luas is under 22km/hour and it's capacity is severely constrained. On other tram systems I've used around Europe, hour long tram journeys are unheard of.

cgcsb · 16-05-2019 3:33pm

It's a symptom of the sickness of Irish politics, 'I want a luas in my area Joe'. But the caller won't suggest any capacity relief in the critical central zone or acknowledge than an hour on a tram won't cut it.

riddlinrussell · 17-05-2019 9:46am

cgcsb wrote: »

It's a symptom of the sickness of Irish politics, 'I want a luas in my area Joe'. But the caller won't suggest any capacity relief in the critical central zone or acknowledge than an hour on a tram won't cut it.

Heres hoping that the Metro is so successful that that just changes to 'I want metro in my area Joe' and we accidentally build a great network....

salmocab · 17-05-2019 9:48am

cgcsb wrote: »

It's a symptom of the sickness of Irish politics, 'I want a luas in my area Joe'. But the caller won't suggest any capacity relief in the critical central zone or acknowledge than an hour on a tram won't cut it.

Ironically the people with the luas don’t want the metro.

bk · 17-05-2019 12:04pm

salmocab wrote: »

Ironically the people with the luas don’t want the metro.

The people on the Luas desperately want the Metro. The rich people who happen to live beside it, but still drive to work, don't want it.

Luas Red Line extension to Rathcoole

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