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Electric vehicles emit more CO2 than diesel ones

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  • 19-04-2019 7:52am
    #1
    Phileas Frog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 946 ✭✭✭


    An interesting article...

    Electric vehicles emit more CO2 than diesel ones, German study shows

    Electric vehicles in Germany account for more CO2 emissions than diesel ones, according to a study by German scientists.
    When CO2 emissions linked to the production of batteries and the German energy mix - in which coal still plays an important role - are taken into consideration, electric vehicles emit 11% to 28% more than their diesel counterparts, according to the study, presented on Wednesday at the Ifo Institute in Munich.

    http://www.brusselstimes.com/business/technology/15050/electric-vehicles-emit-more-co2-than-diesel-ones,-german-study-shows


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    #2
    Grumpypants
    Registered Users Posts: 7,787 ✭✭✭Grumpypants


    So they factored in the impact of getting the battery made and the electricity made, and then compared it to just driving a diesel car. Ignoring the impact of getting that diesel out if the ground, refined, shipped in huge polluting tankers, shipped in huge polluting trucks etc.


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    #3
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    Makes a few other questionable assumptions too, such as pretty low usage of the batteries at 150,000km over ten years, that the batteries will be scrapped after ten years, and that Germany will not reduce the CO2 emissions caused by electricity generation in the next ten years.


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    #4
    HopsAndJumps
    Registered Users Posts: 305 ✭✭HopsAndJumps


    Grumpypants wrote: »
    So they factored in the impact of getting the battery made and the electricity made, and then compared it to just driving a diesel car. Ignoring the impact of getting that diesel out if the ground, refined, shipped in huge polluting tankers, shipped in huge polluting trucks etc.

    Its a very complicated question, id like to see the study to see all the factors that are considered. Id be surprised if those issues were not factored in but you never know depending on who is financing the study. Germany is home to pretty much most of the cars we drive here.

    I think Ireland's electricity generation of up to about 49% efficiency now. That's quite a bit more efficient than petrol or diesel which between 20-40%


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    #5
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,366 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    They are ignoring the NOX and SOX which are reduced at a power plant as oppose from cars.

    They also ignore that cars are emitting in cities at ground level and hence are doing more damage to cities and populations.

    I’d also question the energy mix they used.



    And most the inportantly the article does not reference the article. It doesn’t say who produced it it commissioned it

    I always like to refer to the studies themselves to check validatity, without the above it’s just fiction


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    #6
    slave1
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 18,799 Mod ✭✭✭✭slave1


    ted1 wrote: »
    They also ignore that cars are emitting in cities at ground level and hence are doing more damage to cities and populations.

    * This

    My stuff for sale on Adverts inc. outdoor furniture, roof box and EDDI

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    #7
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,647 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Absolutely nuts.

    If I'm in the city say in traffic the diesel cars around me are more harmful as I'm taking in a breath of all the particle matter.

    Nox is important also as brought up in previous posts.

    I do wonder is the oil industry or car manufacturers themselves behind most of this.

    Government most likely not as they can just increase tax on something else if fuel use drops such as higher motor tax or more tax on electricity....


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    #8
    KAGY
    Registered Users Posts: 1,090 ✭✭✭KAGY


    ted1 wrote: »
    They are ignoring the NOX and SOX which are reduced at a power plant as oppose from cars.

    They also ignore that cars are emitting in cities at ground level and hence are doing more damage to cities and populations.

    I’d also question the energy mix they used.



    And most the inportantly the article does not reference the article. It doesn’t say who produced it it commissioned it

    I always like to refer to the studies themselves to check validatity, without the above it’s just fiction

    Paper is here http://www.hanswernersinn.de/de/kohle-wind-diesel-motoren-co2-bilanz-sd-17042019 in German

    I'd hazard a guess they've a thing for natural gas, I don't read German but some abstracts mention methane powered cars for the short term and hydrogen from methane in the long term.

    One point is that Germany burns a lot of lignite / brown coal which is like a cross between peat and coal.


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    #9
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,366 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    KAGY wrote: »
    Paper is here http://www.hanswernersinn.de/de/kohle-wind-diesel-motoren-co2-bilanz-sd-17042019 in German

    I'd hazard a guess they've a thing for natural gas, I don't read German but some abstracts mention methane powered cars for the short term and hydrogen from methane in the long term.

    One point is that Germany burns a lot of lignite / brown coal which is like a cross between peat and coal.

    Methane is 17 times more harmful than CO2


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    #10
    Fiery mutant
    Registered Users Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭Fiery mutant


    It's not like the Germans have a good track record either when it comes to emissions.

    The only thing the Germans care about, is themselves.

    We should defend our way of life to an extent that any attempt on it is crushed, so that any adversary will never make such an attempt in the future.



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    #11
    Dont be at yourself
    Registered Users Posts: 10,572 ✭✭✭✭Dont be at yourself


    The latest issue of Top Gear magazine is dedicated to electrics, and there's a series of articles debunking myths such as this one. It cites research from ICTT (who uncovered Dieselgate), that reckons lifetime CO2 emissions, even including manufacturing and mining, come in at half that of an ICE.


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    #12
    tedpan
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 4,627 Mod ✭✭✭✭tedpan


    Phileas Frog wrote:
    Electric vehicles emit more CO2 than diesel ones, German study shows


    They've been talking about the costs and how ungreen the battery manufacturing/transportation process is for years now.

    #oldnews


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    #13
    BloodBath
    Registered Users Posts: 10,299 ✭✭✭✭BloodBath


    Phileas Frog wrote: »
    An interesting article...

    Electric vehicles emit more CO2 than diesel ones, German study shows

    Electric vehicles in Germany account for more CO2 emissions than diesel ones, according to a study by German scientists.
    When CO2 emissions linked to the production of batteries and the German energy mix - in which coal still plays an important role - are taken into consideration, electric vehicles emit 11% to 28% more than their diesel counterparts, according to the study, presented on Wednesday at the Ifo Institute in Munich.

    http://www.brusselstimes.com/business/technology/15050/electric-vehicles-emit-more-co2-than-diesel-ones,-german-study-shows

    Another dumb article. Total bollocks.

    Even if it was true reducing emissions from cities and public areas is far more important. But it's not true even in the worst case scenario of coal power plants.

    I'm sick of breathing the emissions from filthy diesel vehicles around me. The sooner we go full electric the better.

    These "scientists" should have their reputation, if they ever had one, ruined by this bollocks fluff piece probably paid for by the oil industry. They even suggest using methane engines over diesel. Good god. Methane is far worse than carbon.

    How about you tackle your energy production Germany instead of targeting electric vehicles.


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    #14
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,432 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    HopsAndJumps wrote: »
    Its a very complicated question, id like to see the study to see all the factors that are considered. Id be surprised if those issues were not factored in but you never know depending on who is financing the study. Germany is home to pretty much most of the cars we drive here.

    I think Ireland's electricity generation of up to about 49% efficiency now. That's quite a bit more efficient than petrol or diesel which between 20-40%

    49 % efficency what way?
    Thermal efficency or to the plug including transmission losses Ect...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #15
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users Posts: 12,274 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    Markcheese wrote: »
    49 % efficency what way?
    Thermal efficency or to the plug including transmission losses Ect...

    I would say he meant renewable and google autocorrected

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



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    #16
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 65,049 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    that the batteries will be scrapped after ten years

    LOL!

    The batteries will still be worth thousands after the car is end of life after say 15 years. They will be re-used as grid attached storage. Lithium batteries have a useful life of several decades.


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    #17
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,331 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    punisher5112 wrote: »
    Absolutely nuts.

    If I'm in the city say in traffic the diesel cars around me are more harmful as I'm taking in a breath of all the particle matter.

    Nox is important also as brought up in previous posts.

    I do wonder is the oil industry or car manufacturers themselves behind most of this.

    Government most likely not as they can just increase tax on something else if fuel use drops such as higher motor tax or more tax on electricity....

    I remember seeing a programme on RTE where they showed a trinity study on pollutants from diesel by putting pollution filters in Nassau Street and in the suburbs.
    Frightening to actually see what we are breathing surrounded by traffic. That's the real problem when it comes to this discussion about the overall emissions


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    #18
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,366 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    unkel wrote: »
    LOL!

    The batteries will still be worth thousands after the car is end of life after say 15 years. They will be re-used as grid attached storage. Lithium batteries have a useful life of several decades.


    Plans to recycle
    https://www.upsbatterycenter.com/blog/unique-battery-recycling-system-tesla/


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    #19
    iamtony
    Registered Users Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭iamtony


    Just want to point out the co2 problem is more to do with global warming and us destroying the planet rather than inhaling diesel emissions at ground level. Which is also an issue but the co2 thing is bigger than us humans who we could do with killing off a few billion in the first place. Watch the new one planet thing on Netflix now that's an eye opener.


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    #20
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,366 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    iamtony wrote: »
    Just want to point out the co2 problem is more to do with global warming and us destroying the planet rather than inhaling diesel emissions at ground level. Which is also an issue but the co2 thing is bigger than us humans who we could do with killing off a few billion in the first place. Watch the new one planet thing on Netflix now that's an eye opener.

    300,000 deaths annually due to the burning of fossil fuels.

    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2017/11/07/pollution-kills-more-people-than-anything-else/amp/


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    #21
    BloodBath
    Registered Users Posts: 10,299 ✭✭✭✭BloodBath


    iamtony wrote: »
    Just want to point out the co2 problem is more to do with global warming and us destroying the planet rather than inhaling diesel emissions at ground level. Which is also an issue but the co2 thing is bigger than us humans who we could do with killing off a few billion in the first place. Watch the new one planet thing on Netflix now that's an eye opener.

    The beef and dairy industry are just as bad as the fossil fuel industry in this department and Ireland is a big contributor.

    We're still stuck using a large % of land for this crap since the Brits turned Ireland into a farm for themselves.


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    #22
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,366 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    BloodBath wrote: »
    The beef and dairy industry are just as bad as the fossil fuel industry in this department and Ireland is a big contributor.

    We're still stuck using a large % of land for this crap since the Brits turned Ireland into a farm for themselves.

    Well after they chopped down our oak foreststo build their boats we did have a lot of spare land.


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    #23
    ...Ghost...
    Registered Users Posts: 3,383 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    BloodBath wrote: »
    The beef and dairy industry are just as bad as the fossil fuel industry in this department and Ireland is a big contributor.

    We're still stuck using a large % of land for this crap since the Brits turned Ireland into a farm for themselves.

    Our Beef and Dairy industry feed a whole lot more than just Ireland. This is why the place of consumption should be taken into account.

    Stay Free



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    #24
    Dakota Dan
    Registered Users Posts: 3,764 ✭✭✭Dakota Dan


    ted1 wrote: »
    Methane is 17 times more harmful than CO2

    But it lasts 20 times less in the atmosphere.


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    #25
    Dakota Dan
    Registered Users Posts: 3,764 ✭✭✭Dakota Dan


    Dont be at yourself wrote: »
    The latest issue of Top Gear magazine is dedicated to electrics, and there's a series of articles debunking myths such as this one. It cites research from ICTT (who uncovered Dieselgate), that reckons lifetime CO2 emissions, even including manufacturing and mining, come in at half that of an ICE.

    Top gear? They’d Surely know better.


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    #26
    Dakota Dan
    Registered Users Posts: 3,764 ✭✭✭Dakota Dan


    iamtony wrote: »
    Just want to point out the co2 problem is more to do with global warming and us destroying the planet rather than inhaling diesel emissions at ground level. Which is also an issue but the co2 thing is bigger than us humans who we could do with killing off a few billion in the first place. Watch the new one planet thing on Netflix now that's an eye opener.

    An eye opener? It was torn to shreds by wildlife experts about all the misinformation shortly after coming out. Also in case you didn’t know calving glaciers is a natural event and if it didn’t happen we’d be in more serious trouble.


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    #27
    BloodBath
    Registered Users Posts: 10,299 ✭✭✭✭BloodBath


    ...Ghost... wrote: »
    Our Beef and Dairy industry feed a whole lot more than just Ireland. This is why the place of consumption should be taken into account.

    It doesn't change the fact that the beef/dairy industry is 1 of the most damaging things on the planet. I love dairy and beef myself but we're over reliant on it.

    If there's a carbon tax there needs to be a beef and dairy tax as well. There are plenty of viable alternatives that are far less damaging.


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    #28
    colm_mcm
    Registered Users Posts: 73,405 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    ted1 wrote: »
    Methane is 17 times more harmful than CO2

    Water can be dangerous.


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    #29
    Dakota Dan
    Registered Users Posts: 3,764 ✭✭✭Dakota Dan


    colm_mcm wrote: »
    Water can be dangerous.

    True, water vapour is the main greenhouse gas but they can’t tax clouds.


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    #30
    Dakota Dan
    Registered Users Posts: 3,764 ✭✭✭Dakota Dan


    BloodBath wrote: »
    It doesn't change the fact that the beef/dairy industry is 1 of the most damaging things on the planet. I love dairy and beef myself but we're over reliant on it.

    If there's a carbon tax there needs to be a beef and dairy tax as well. There are plenty of viable alternatives that are far less damaging.

    Spoken like a true vegan.


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    #31
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,366 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    colm_mcm wrote: »
    Water can be dangerous.

    Methane is dangerous, what’s your point ? Are you trying to down play how bad it is for the environment?


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