"Book readers" - Season 8 Episode 1 "Winterfell"

Duckworth_Luas · 17-04-2019 12:49PM

Sleepy wrote: »

Unwitting as in he believes he's Aegon when in fact he (and perhaps Connington) have been lied to by others as to his true parentage (probably a Blackfyre).

You're mixing Warbeck up with Lambert Simnel.

Warbeck was fully aware of his own real identity. Simnel was a puppet.

Sleepy · 17-04-2019 01:13PM

Not enough coffee this morning!

leggo · 17-04-2019 01:25PM

awec wrote: »

Young Griff confused me. In the books, Young Griff is Aegon Targaryen. In the TV show Jon Snow is Aegon Targaryen. Is it Martin's intention for there to be two Aegon Targaryens alive at the same time in the books, both with the same father but different mothers? That would definitely be confusing. Or have the TV show just merged a few characters together for simplicity sake?

There’s no way to know until the books get released, but I took Jon being named Aegon as significant. There’s no way it’s a coincidence! How I interpret it is giving us a nod that Griff isn’t relevant to the endgame so this was them writing him out. I’d agree with those who say he’s a pretender, an insurance plan for Connington, Ilyrio and Varys if Viserys/Dany didn’t work out.

Dial Hard · 17-04-2019 01:27PM

Sleepy wrote: »

Not enough coffee this morning!

There isn't enough coffee in the world for me, it's been so long since I read the books. I'd forgotten all of this stuff.

Tazzimus · 17-04-2019 01:50PM

leggo wrote: »

There’s no way to know until the books get released, but I took Jon being named Aegon as significant. There’s no way it’s a coincidence! How I interpret it is giving us a nod that Griff isn’t relevant to the endgame so this was them writing him out. I’d agree with those who say he’s a pretender, an insurance plan for Connington, Ilyrio and Varys if Viserys/Dany didn’t work out.

I wonder if they've done a bit of ****ery with his name, and he'll be called something different in the books.
Similar to Asha/Yara, Jeyne/Talisa.

Or merged the two characters, a la Euron/Victarion.

awec · 17-04-2019 01:55PM

Dial Hard wrote: »

There isn't enough coffee int eh world for me, it's been so long since I read the books. I'd forgotten all of this stuff.

I have forgotten almost all of the book content that didn't make the shows.

There's just so much irrelevant detail and plot lines that it's actually hard to keep track of it all.

EagererBeaver · 17-04-2019 02:06PM

awec wrote: »

Dial Hard wrote: »

There isn't enough coffee int eh world for me, it's been so long since I read the books. I'd forgotten all of this stuff.

I have forgotten almost all of the book content that didn't make the shows.

There's just so much irrelevant detail and plot lines that it's actually hard to keep track of it all.

Show needed more Darkstar. The Dorne plot was one of the few redeeming features from AFFC and ADWD and the didn't use it at all. Preferred bad pussssaaaayyyy.

Conall Cernach · 17-04-2019 04:54PM

EagererBeaver wrote: »

There's nothing unwitting about him. Didn't he take charge of assault plans and head off to Storm's End against Connington's advice?

I think Sleepy means that Young Griff mistakenly believes that he is Aegon Targaryen and heir to the throne while he is really a Blackfyre or some other non-legitimate Targaryen scion.

Riddle101 · 18-04-2019 02:46PM

I know it's been mentioned before but it looks like Tyrion has been dumbed down while Cersei has been made smarter in the later seasons. All I can think of is that scene in season 3 when Cersei says "You're a clever man. But you're not half clever as you think you are" and Tyrion replies "Still makes me more clever than you". I guess Tyrion is eating his words now because Cersei has effectively outwitted him several times.

Tyrion's character is being wasted and turned into a comedy act nowadays. When you consider that part of the charm of Tyrion's character comes from his intellect, it kind've ruins what made him such a cool character.

The White Wolf · 18-04-2019 04:10PM

Riddle101 wrote: »

I know it's been mentioned before but it looks like Tyrion has been dumbed down while Cersei has been made smarter in the later seasons. All I can think of is that scene in season 3 when Cersei says "You're a clever man. But you're not half clever as you think you are" and Tyrion replies "Still makes me more clever than you". I guess Tyrion is eating his words now because Cersei has effectively outwitted him several times.

Tyrion's character is being wasted and turned into a comedy act nowadays. When you consider that part of the charm of Tyrion's character comes from his intellect, it kind've ruins what made him such a cool character.

Cersei's POVs in the later books were a highlight for me - she is such a deluded head case that it's exceedingly entertaining. I don't know why they didn't do a literal interpretation on the show other than there's seems to be a suggestion that Lena Headey was too good to waste on a one sided portrayal.

But I don't agree with the suggestion that one dimensional = bad. Book Cersei is up there as one of the best villains in fiction that I've come across. A literal interpretation wouldn't have done Heady a disservice at all.

Greyfox · 19-04-2019 02:41PM

The White Wolf wrote: »

But I don't agree with the suggestion that one dimensional = bad. Book Cersei is up there as one of the best villains in fiction that I've come across. A literal interpretation wouldn't have done Heady a disservice at all.

Book Cersei is a good villian at best and for me 1 dimensional is bad. TV Cersei is one of fictions greatest villians ever and thats all about what the magnificent Lena Heady does to elevate the character. She brings humour to the character with her mannerisms and during the walk of shame most people had empathy for her.

The White Wolf · 19-04-2019 03:24PM

Greyfox wrote: »

Book Cersei is a good villian at best and for me 1 dimensional is bad. TV Cersei is one of fictions greatest villians ever and thats all about what the magnificent Lena Heady does to elevate the character. She brings humour to the character with her mannerisms and during the walk of shame most people had empathy for her.

That's the thing though in that I don't want to feel empathy for her. I'd compare it to Coppola's portrayal of Dracula in 1992 where he wanted us to feel sorry for this tragic character who feeds babies with a maniacal and sick laugh to his brides.

I understand it works for some but even at her most vulnerable I don't feel a whole lot of sympathy for show Cersei even in the walk of shame; something entirely her own doing.

RobbingBandit · 19-04-2019 08:25PM

Book Cersei doesn't have the gall to kill the septas who put her on the walk of shame or to take on the might of the high septon. But unlike the on screen version to our knowledge two of her three children still live disfigured and much younger than the on screen representation of their characters so the comparison isn't really possible.

Book Cersei will do evil things in the final book/books if they're ever finished but it will not compare to on screen Cersei she is a cold calculated **** as the hound would say.

20-04-2019 05:45AM

The White Wolf wrote: »

That's the thing though in that I don't want to feel empathy for her. I'd compare it to Coppola's portrayal of Dracula in 1992 where he wanted us to feel sorry for this tragic character who feeds babies with a maniacal and sick laugh to his brides.

I understand it works for some but even at her most vulnerable I don't feel a whole lot of sympathy for show Cersei even in the walk of shame; something entirely her own doing.

How did you feel when she poisoned the daughter of your one from Dorne as revenge for them killing her daughter?

"You go Cersei. Poison that bitch." is all I was thinking.

Greyfox · 20-04-2019 09:14AM

Deleted User wrote: »

"You go Cersei. Poison that bitch." is all I was thinking.

Yeah I was thinking the same thing. This and the sweet revenge on the high sparrow makes me like her character all the more. When i recently rewatched S1 I forgot how brilliant that scene is when Cersei asks what Lyanna was like, it's easy to forget how badly Robert treated her and this is a good motivation for her character.

Paddy Cow · 20-04-2019 02:27PM

Greyfox wrote: »

Yeah I was thinking the same thing. This and the sweet revenge on the high sparrow makes me like her character all the more. When i recently rewatched S1 I forgot how brilliant that scene is when Cersei asks what Lyanna was like, it's easy to forget how badly Robert treated her and this is a good motivation for her character.

Robert treated her badly but he didn't make her that way. The evil bitch poisoned her first child because Robert was the father.

The White Wolf · 20-04-2019 03:05PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

How did you feel when she poisoned the daughter of your one from Dorne as revenge for them killing her daughter?

"You go Cersei. Poison that bitch." is all I was thinking.

Can't remember specifics but I think the main feeling was indifference. Mycrella was an innocent and Ellaria paid for her bloodlust....but as a personal victory for Cersei I got no satisfaction.

Speaking of Ellaria....I've been reading over some of my favourite chapters lately (have all the ebooks so it's easy)....that's a multi faceted character they turned into a complete one note one on the show. Interesting comparison to Cersei.

Wailin · 20-04-2019 05:36PM

What ever happened to the character Daario Naharis in the show? Also, John's direwolf? Can't remember the last time he was seen.

Paddy Cow · 20-04-2019 08:28PM

Wailin wrote: »

What ever happened to the character Daario Naharis in the show? Also, John's direwolf? Can't remember the last time he was seen.

Dany and Daario were lovers and she knew she couldn't bring him to Westeros so she left him to rule in her stead.

Ghost hasn't really featured since Jon was resurrected from the dead. The cgi budget is spent on dragons, not direwolves.

Riddle101 · 20-04-2019 08:31PM

Wailin wrote: »

What ever happened to the character Daario Naharis in the show? Also, John's direwolf? Can't remember the last time he was seen.

Daario was left behind in Mereen to keep the peace. I also think Tyrion convinced Daenerys not to bring him with her because it wouldn't look right for Daenerys to bring a paramore with her, especially a low born sellsword like Daario. If she is to sit the Iron Throne she could not marry him, and Daario would only be a distraction.

As for Ghost. He's bound to appear eventually.

mooseknunkle · 21-04-2019 01:24PM

Wailin wrote: »

What ever happened to the character Daario Naharis in the show? Also, John's direwolf? Can't remember the last time he was seen.

One of the producers has said Ghost will feature heavily in one of the episodes

21-04-2019 01:29PM

mooseknunkle wrote: »

_____

This should be spoilered.

I'm all for no spoilers for what has happened in the show, but plenty of us avoid all the interviews and everything because of this type of information.

mooseknunkle · 21-04-2019 01:37PM

Bit late now seen as you read and replied to it.

21-04-2019 01:41PM

mooseknunkle wrote: »

Bit late now seen as you read and replied to it.

Good point. I've edited it.

rawn · 21-04-2019 04:29PM

Is there any explanation of where the Dornish army is? I know the Sandsnakes are dead and Ellaria captured, but that doesn't mean the entire Dornish army are just like, welp that's that... They are allied with Danearys after all. I mean was there specifically an explanation in the show that I may have missed?

21-04-2019 05:17PM

rawn wrote: »

Is there any explanation of where the Dornish army is? I know the Sandsnakes are dead and Ellaria captured, but that doesn't mean the entire Dornish army are just like, welp that's that... They are allied with Danearys after all. I mean was there specifically an explanation in the show that I may have missed?

You could say that about a lot of the armies and people in the show. The vacuums of power have not really been filled in the likes of Storms End, Highgarden, Dorne or Riverrun.

leggo · 21-04-2019 06:48PM

Yara was ferrying the Dornish army too right? And only a few ships survived. I imagine, if you had to explain, it’d be that the Ironborn would be used to fighting at sea so that’d explain why some of their fighters survived.

Are we assume that Euron killed every last one? No, doubtful, but enough to render them null to the main plot as it winds down without anyone to lead them in fighting for someone else’s cause.

storker · 21-04-2019 07:32PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I think I remember from years ago that a dragon picks its rider,

Wasn't that the flying creatures in Avatar?

Dave_The_Sheep · 21-04-2019 07:45PM

storker wrote: »

Wasn't that the flying creatures in Avatar?

Pretty sure it's not a unique story point in a lot of tales.

Paddy Cow · 21-04-2019 10:10PM

rawn wrote: »

Is there any explanation of where the Dornish army is? I know the Sandsnakes are dead and Ellaria captured, but that doesn't mean the entire Dornish army are just like, welp that's that... They are allied with Danearys after all. I mean was there specifically an explanation in the show that I may have missed?

The writing has been really poor the last 2-3 seasons and there are a lot of things that don't make sense that the show doesn't address, which they're probably hoping we ignore to find out how the story ends. One thing that stands out for me is how empty Cersei's court is. Apart from Qyborn, she doesn't seem to have a council. That means no hand, no master of coin, no master of ships etc. There is no way she can do all that herself. Plus how is she keeping control of the city? I rewatched S1 last week and there was an episode where the head of the city guard approached Ned to ask for more men because the tourney had brought loads more people into the city and crime was rising. Little details like that is what made the first few seasons so realistic.

There is no way Cersei could hold the throne with just Qyborn as her advisor. There is always someone opportunistic waiting in the wings to take over. Tywin's father nearly ran his house into the ground until Tywin took over and his ruthlessness made everyone fear him. Cersei has no real claim to the throne but at this stage I'm beyond caring about inconsistencies and just want to see who lives and who dies!

"Book readers" - Season 8 Episode 1 "Winterfell"

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