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Have we reach peak LGBT nonsense?

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Comments

  • #152
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Varta wrote: »
    "Sports today are about inclusivity where players on a national team serve as role models for what others might aspire to."
    I disagree. Sport is about sport and no one has a right to hijack it to promote inclusivity or anything else. Players on a national team should be the best available players. End of. Why should sports people be singled out as role models?

    Firstly - if you aren't inclusive then you may not get the best people. The best people may decide that sport is not for me as it's dominated by narrow minded bigots.

    Secondly - if sports people wish to get paid the big bucks - which the majority of the professionals do- they need to be aware of where their wages comes from. Yes, money plays a huge role. That money comes from sponsors, merchandise, and supporters. Having your sport associated with any fundamentalist view (in this instance fundamentalist Christianity) is bad business.
    If expressing your religious views are more important to a person than abiding by the terms and conditions of the contract they enter into then remain amateur. In short - they can have their cake or they can eat it.

    Thirdly - playing for the national team is about representing your country - not your religion or yourself. You are there to represent all the people of your country. Not just the ones you approve of.


  • #153
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Varta wrote: »
    "Sports today are about inclusivity where players on a national team serve as role models for what others might aspire to."
    I disagree. Sport is about sport and no one has a right to hijack it to promote inclusivity or anything else. Players on a national team should be the best available players. End of. Why should sports people be singled out as role models?

    Sports stars have been deemed as role models for decades, longer some would argue.
    Due to their athletic ability and skills and the fact that they are idolized by young people.


  • #154
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,385 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Varta wrote: »
    Why isn't he losing his job for saying that adulterers will go to Hell?

    He also said atheists, in that post, but no one cares about that. Not that atheists have been a persecuted group in multiple cultures, throughout history :rolleyes:


  • #155
    salmocab
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,641 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    He also said atheists, in that post, but no one cares about that. Not that atheists have been a persecuted group in multiple cultures, throughout history :rolleyes:

    In fairness I can’t imagine many atheists are worried about the threat of hell


  • #156
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    He also said atheists, in that post, but no one cares about that. Not that atheists have been a persecuted group in multiple cultures, throughout history :rolleyes:

    There were very few people who admitted atheism.


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  • #157
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,385 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    salmocab wrote: »
    He’s losing his job because he publicly expressed his private views, as a top international rugby player he is part of Australian rugby’s image which he has a duty to keep. Sponsors won’t be happy with what he says as they don’t want to have links to such a person. He is perfectly entitled to his own beliefs but when he publicly makes ridiculous statements that affect his employer then they are entitled to do something about it.

    Problem is that this logic would also apply to say atheists in religious schools here no?
    Should an atheist teacher be fired, from a religion run school, for publicly stating their non belief?
    Should the school be allowed to tell the atheist that they are entitled to their views in private but must not go against the ethos of the school publicly (on their own time)?


    He is an objectively horrible human being and I am delighted to see him gone BUT, while I fundamentally disagree with what he said, I am uncomfortable with the "how" they got rid of him.


  • #158
    SoundsRight
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 408 ✭✭SoundsRight


    batgoat wrote: »
    Employees follow a code of conduct. Eg if my company ended up heavily associated with such views as a result of me. I could get fired. With sporting figures, expressing such views automatically associates it with the team. Which is a breach of their contract.

    I'd be very surprised if an employment contract had stipulations covering someone's religion.

    This is just part of diversity. Some people think it's ok for two dads to raise kids, for people change gender etc, and some don't. Each is entitled to their beliefs. We just have to put our differences aside.


  • #159
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,385 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    salmocab wrote: »
    In fairness I can’t imagine many atheists are worried about the threat of hell

    He wished the idea of hell on everyone he mentioned. Does not matter if a gay person was a theist or not, the intent is key.


  • #160
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,385 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    SoundsRight wrote: »
    I'd be very surprised if an employment contract had stipulations covering someone's religion.

    This is just part of diversity. Some people think it's ok for two dads to raise kids, for people change gender etc, and some don't. Each is entitled to their beliefs. We just have to put our differences aside.

    They did, his new contract forbade him from airing his religious views publicly


  • #161
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,385 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    Sports stars have been deemed as role models for decades, longer some would argue.
    Due to their athletic ability and skills and the fact that they are idolized by young people.

    Someone tell that to McGregor, Mayweather, half the NFL, etc.
    Sponsors dictate it, not the public.


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  • #162
    boetstark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭boetstark


    partyguinness wrote: »
    He will be punished not for expressing his religious 'beliefs' as such but rather for violating (again) a Code of Conduct that he has signed up for which basically tells him to keep all that nonsense to himself.

    Your nonsense , his beliefs.


  • #163
    SoundsRight
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 408 ✭✭SoundsRight


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    They did, his new contract forbade him from airing his religious views publicly

    I seriously doubt that.


  • #164
    batgoat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,423 ✭✭✭batgoat


    SoundsRight wrote: »
    I'd be very surprised if an employment contract had stipulations covering someone's religion.

    This is just part of diversity. Some people think it's ok for two dads to raise kids, for people change gender etc, and some don't. Each is entitled to their beliefs. We just have to put our differences aside.

    He was previously warned that disrespectful remarks in relation to a person's sexuality on social media etc is unacceptable and a violation of the code of conduct. If it ends up going to a hearing that is most likely going to confirm it is a violation.


  • #165
    Varta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 517 ✭✭✭Varta


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Firstly - if you aren't inclusive then you may not get the best people. The best people may decide that sport is not for me as it's dominated by narrow minded bigots.

    Secondly - if sports people wish to get paid the big bucks - which the majority of the professionals do- they need to be aware of where their wages comes from. Yes, money plays a huge role. That money comes from sponsors, merchandise, and supporters. Having your sport associated with any fundamentalist view (in this instance fundamentalist Christianity) is bad business.
    If expressing your religious views are more important to a person than abiding by the terms and conditions of the contract they enter into then remain amateur. In short - they can have their cake or they can eat it.

    Thirdly - playing for the national team is about representing your country - not your religion or yourself. You are there to represent all the people of your country. Not just the ones you approve of.

    Inclusivity is a good thing, but that is not what sports is 'about'.
    Playing for the national team is indeed about representing your country, but it is also about the individual's personal achievement in the sport.
    Sports people representing their country should only be held to account while they are actually engaged in representing their country.


  • #166
    cgcsb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,000 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    Haven't read the detail but in essence a rugby players career called a halt to because he said gays and various other sinners will go to hell

    If you have nasty things to say, like gays (or jews or any other group) are going to hell, then perhaps keep a lid on it. If you are a person working in the public view then your employer has a reputation to maintain, basically you can't say what you like in this line of work.


  • #167
    Varta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 517 ✭✭✭Varta


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    Sports stars have been deemed as role models for decades, longer some would argue.
    Due to their athletic ability and skills and the fact that they are idolized by young people.

    Being deemed a role model is one thing. Being expected to serve as a role model is quite another. What they do or say when off duty should be their own business. On duty is another matter. For example, I am sick and tired of seeing footballers praying on the football pitch.


  • #168
    splinter65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    They did, his new contract forbade him from airing his religious views publicly

    Have you a link to that? I can’t imagine someone like him agreeing to that.


  • #169
    cgcsb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,000 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    Just as you wouldn't have gotten a 2nd opportunity in 1953 to stand up in your office and announce that you were gay.

    He who lives by the mood of the time, dies by the mood of the time.

    So much for enlightened thinking.

    The key difference being one statement is self-identification and the other is denouncing others.


  • #170
    Varta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 517 ✭✭✭Varta


    cgcsb wrote: »
    If you have nasty things to say, like gays (or jews or any other group) are going to hell, then perhaps keep a lid on it. If you are a person working in the public view then your employer has a reputation to maintain, basically you can't say what you like in this line of work.

    If he had said that gays should go to prison or somewhere else tangible then by all means punish him for it. But he said that the are going to a place that is a figment of his imagination. Therefore, he hasn't really said anything, has he?


  • #171
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,555 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Problem is that this logic would also apply to say atheists in religious schools here no?
    Should an atheist teacher be fired, from a religion run school, for publicly stating their non belief?
    Should the school be allowed to tell the atheist that they are entitled to their views in private but must not go against the ethos of the school publicly (on their own time)?


    A sibling of mine was in religion class of a multi-denominational secondary school. The teacher asked started of the year by encouraging the class to pray for the atheists as they were going to hell. She got a very firm warning for it.


    As for your questions: should they be fired? Yeah, probably (although why an atheist would work in a religious school in the first place is a bit odd).
    Yes, they should be allowed to tell the atheist that. If the teacher, on a public platform, starts an anti-religion rant whilst working in a very religious school and that goes against the school's ethos, then I don't see why the teacher shouldn't be given a warning and then fired if it continues.



    However, there is a very fundamental difference between a religious belief and sexuality, especially these days. That difference being that I have a clear and set moment when I decided to be atheist. I have absolutely no moment where I decided to be straight.


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  • #172
    Tacklebox
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 419 ✭✭Tacklebox


    Varta wrote: »
    If he had said that gays should go to prison or somewhere else tangible then by all means punish him for it. But he said that the are going to a place that is a figment of his imagination. Therefore, he hasn't really said anything, has he?

    In essence you're probably right.

    I'm not homophobic racist or religiously motivated, but if wherever he lives has law's against what ever he posted,then he's in trouble.

    Some people will get offended by others opinions, that's the way it is.

    Not all of us are sensitive to people's remarks because some can rise above it.
    I'll admit I used to be a bit over sensitive myself and it was painful feeling that way.

    Admittedly I had to grow up and smell the coffee.
    Life is easier when not feeling like a victim, but unfortunately that's the way it is.

    We live in a society where one person's version of bullying is another's version of banter.


  • #173
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,555 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    Varta wrote: »
    If he had said that gays should go to prison or somewhere else tangible then by all means punish him for it. But he said that the are going to a place that is a figment of his imagination. Therefore, he hasn't really said anything, has he?


    To atheists, yeah it's ridiculous. Atheism and being gay do not necessarily go hand in hand.


  • #174
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,385 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Marengo wrote: »

    Entitled to his beliefs, absolutely. However as a Christian I find his beliefs very anti Christian. No one can judge another or post or speak comments like that. That's hate not love, not the Christian or Humanitarian attitude. P.s. You don't need religion to be a decent human being.

    Does the bible say that being gay is a sin? Do sinners go to hell, according to the bible?

    Being Christian (of sects that do not allow personal interpretation) means it is VERY Christian to say such things.
    The catholic upper level is so hypocritical on this, saying that they love everyone gay or not and just the gay acts are the sin so... you know... just don't do it.
    But if you do sin? Well hell awaits.


  • #175
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,385 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Ave Sodalis wrote: »
    A sibling of mine was in religion class of a multi-denominational secondary school. The teacher asked started of the year by encouraging the class to pray for the atheists as they were going to hell. She got a very firm warning for it.


    As for your questions: should they be fired? Yeah, probably (although why an atheist would work in a religious school in the first place is a bit odd).
    Yes, they should be allowed to tell the atheist that. If the teacher, on a public platform, starts an anti-religion rant whilst working in a very religious school and that goes against the school's ethos, then I don't see why the teacher shouldn't be given a warning and then fired if it continues.



    However, there is a very fundamental difference between a religious belief and sexuality, especially these days. That difference being that I have a clear and set moment when I decided to be atheist. I have absolutely no moment where I decided to be straight.

    Multi denominational schools are meant to also cater for non believers.

    90% of schools in Ireland are catholic. Just because they are public does not remove that. They are religious.


  • #176
    salmocab
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,641 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Problem is that this logic would also apply to say atheists in religious schools here no?
    Should an atheist teacher be fired, from a religion run school, for publicly stating their non belief?
    Should the school be allowed to tell the atheist that they are entitled to their views in private but must not go against the ethos of the school publicly (on their own time)?


    He is an objectively horrible human being and I am delighted to see him gone BUT, while I fundamentally disagree with what he said, I am uncomfortable with the "how" they got rid of him.

    If the school has a religious ethos then I don’t think the teacher dhould be tweeting that people that follow that religion are morons or simple minded. The teacher would of course be perfectly entitled to that opinion but not to demean some of the parents or pupils by publicly stating it. In the case being discussed IF has made statements about certain groups that are probably all covered by the supporters and sponsors of his employer who just like the parents or pupils in your example are effectively the people paying for his services.


  • #177
    Varta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 517 ✭✭✭Varta


    Ave Sodalis wrote: »
    To atheists, yeah it's ridiculous. Atheism and being gay do not necessarily go hand in hand.

    Indeed. Although I struggle to understand how any gay person could be religious given the religious based persecution gay people have lived with throughout the years. But that's religion for you.

    But to put it in context. If he had said that gay people would not enter into the spaceship of the flying spaghetti monster, would people have called for his sacking? I doubt it. They would more likely have declared him nuts. Yet the flying spaghetti monster is as real as Hell.


  • #178
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,385 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    salmocab wrote: »
    If the school has a religious ethos then I don’t think the teacher dhould be tweeting that people that follow that religion are morons or simple minded. The teacher would of course be perfectly entitled to that opinion but not to demean some of the parents or pupils by publicly stating it. In the case being discussed IF has made statements about certain groups that are probably all covered by the supporters and sponsors of his employer who just like the parents or pupils in your example are effectively the people paying for his services.

    So they should be fired or have contractual stipulations saying that they cannot, say, post here?

    Or a Catholic teacher in a Christian school? Should they be restricted to that sects beliefs?


  • #179
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,555 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Multi denominational schools are meant to also cater for non believers.

    90% of schools in Ireland are catholic. Just because they are public does not remove that. They are religious.


    I never said that?

    Varta wrote: »
    Indeed. Although I struggle to understand how any gay person could be religious given the religious based persecution gay people have lived with throughout the years. But that's religion for you.

    But to put it in context. If he had said that gay people would not enter into the spaceship of the flying spaghetti monster, would people have called for his sacking? I doubt it. They would more likely have declared him nuts. Yet the flying spaghetti monster is as real as Hell.


    I don't understand it, but it's there. Nobody seriously believes in the flying spaghetti monster though. Not entering the spaceship is not a threat to anyone, but going to hell very much is.


  • #180
    salmocab
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,641 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    So they should be fired or have contractual stipulations saying that they cannot, say, post here?

    Or a Catholic teacher in a Christian school? Should they be restricted to that sects beliefs?

    Well posting here is an anonymous post so that wouldn’t matter but yeah a school should be able to take steps just like any other employer to stop them being undermined by staff. We may not like it but that’s the way it has to be, otherwise we get to extremities where a teacher with anti Semitic leanings could be teaching Jewish kids whilst in their own time walking in fascist parades dressed like SS storm troopers.


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  • #181
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,385 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Anteayer wrote: »
    What's annoying me is this is a thread is opening a debate about gay rights, largely by people who seem to see it as some kind of abstract topic, as it doesn't impact them.

    When it impacts you personally, it's a very different discussion and it's extremely frustrating to see this rugby player's statement being defended.

    If it were a discussion about race, I would think the tone would be very different and someone being LGBT is not a matter of personal choice or opinion. It's fundamentally about who they are. It's also potentially also very isolating, as they don't automatically have community.

    So all I'm saying is be careful when you post. This is a real world issue for plenty of people potentially reading this thread.



    No one is defending what he posted (or they should not be)
    The fact that he said gay people (and most posters in this forum) deserve an eternity of torture is, frankly, disgusting.

    I am uncomfortable with the ability to fire someone for a public comment, which breaks no laws, does not call for violence, and is the logical expression of the bible which is done in every sermon/mass/service every day.
    It's ok to hold mass meetings of this nature as long as you're not too public with it? That is disturbing.

    And the whataboutary? I don't think that means what you think it means...

    Arguments must stand up to scrutiny and differing situations. So "what about firing a teacher, in Ireland, for posting a pro-atheist (or anti-theist) comment" is valid?
    So if you believe that someone should be fired for Falou's comments, it's carte blanche to allow companies the other also.
    That's the worrying bit, not the content but the precedent.

    They should NEVER have given him another contract, in the first place. It, to be honest, shows that they did not care about his beliefs and only their own public image.


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