Free Will

13-04-2019 10:43AM #1

I was chatting to some work colleagues recently about crime and punishment (the process of criminal justice, not the novel; I'm waiting for the movie to come out)

Everyone of them was adamant that punishment is an important part of the criminal process.
Why?
Because people must be hell responsible for crimes.
Why?
Because they have decided of their own free will to commit those crimes.

So far so good, until you ask 'What is this 'free will'' - I mean, physically; observably, what is it? Is free will the last great, acceptable belief in the supernatural in society today? We seem to accept it as unquestioningly as people once accepted God, but from what I've read, most scientists and even philosophers are skeptical of its existence, to say the least.

Do you believe in Free Will and why?

suicide_circus · 13-04-2019 10:45AM

of course we have free will, we have no choice

13-04-2019 10:46AM

Philosophy forum -->

Outlaw Pete · 13-04-2019 10:47AM

Great film.

suicide_circus · 13-04-2019 10:49AM

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Great film.

we're gonna need a bigger boat

13-04-2019 10:51AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Philosophy forum -->

Philosophically speaking, I'm not sure there is much to discuss.

It would be like starting a thread in the radio forum asking whether radio waves are controlling our minds -- something else for which there is absolutely no evidence, and probably shouldn't be entertained.

I'm more curious as to why people don't question this belief and its implications more commonly.

mad muffin · 13-04-2019 10:52AM

As the great one once said. Do or do not. There is no try.

Wanderer78 · 13-04-2019 10:54AM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote:

Everyone of them was adamant that punishment is an important part of the criminal process. Why? Because people must be hell responsible for crimes. Why? Because they have decided of their own free will to commit those crimes.

We ve been more or less exercising this punishment approach to crime for centuries, is it really working? We know a lot more about its origins now, maybe we should create social institutions that actively try prevent crime?

Lorelli! · 13-04-2019 10:55AM

I don't know. Some people say that there is no such thing because you are determined to respond to events in a certain way based on an accumulation of all your previous experiences in life.

It still doesn't justify not punishing criminals appropriately because that will bring about new learned experiences for them and could turn the tide.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 13-04-2019 10:56AM

Of course free will exists. It is the ability to act at one's own discretion. We all exercise free will many times every day.

13-04-2019 10:57AM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Philosophically speaking, I'm not sure there is much to discuss.

I'm more curious as to why people don't question this belief and its implications more commonly.

You're contradicting yourself. It certainly belongs in the philosophical realm, but also touches on psychology & theology. A broad question, which doesn't fit in these irreverent quarters.

13-04-2019 10:57AM

Raymond Mysterious Vegetarian wrote: »

Of course free will exists. It is the ability to act at one's own discretion. We all exercise free will many times every day.

Give us something tangible to work with. What is it and where does it come from?

Deleted User wrote: »

You're contradicting yourself. It certainly belongs in the philosophical realm, but also touches on psychology & theology. A broad question, which doesn't fit in these irreverent quarters.

I actually did a search of the philosophy forum before I started this thread, and from what I saw, there was broad agreement that it's a supernatural belief.

I figured if I wanted to hear from non-religious people who actually believe in it, this would be a good starting point. Good luck in modding the AH Forum, didn't read that update!

Hedgelayer · 13-04-2019 11:05AM

This is going to be a deep discussion, free will is ok if one has the ability to work out how their will effects their own destiny.

Some religion's and spiritualists believe our roadway is laid out already.

Then you're getting into the theory of being able to manipulate time and space travel by folding something from one side to the other, like an envelope folded in half, therefore bringing one side parallel to the other in an instant, but yet they're not fully connected.

More talk about us being a simulation and we've no control over our thoughts, but have the ability to not act out on them.

It's an absolute puzzle trying to figure it all out.

Gimme A Pound · 13-04-2019 11:05AM

"Oh no... Willy didn't make it! And he crushed our boy!"

"Ugh... what a mess."

Hedgelayer · 13-04-2019 11:08AM

Regina Faithful Posy wrote: »

"Oh no... Willy didn't make it! And he crushed our boy!"

"Ugh... what a mess."

Now we're getting into a parallel universe, this could go anywhere now...

What if Willy was another gender ?

Franz Von Peppercorn · 13-04-2019 11:12AM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Philosophically speaking, I'm not sure there is much to discuss.

It would be like starting a thread in the radio forum asking whether radio waves are controlling our minds -- something else for which there is absolutely no evidence, and probably shouldn't be entertained.

I'm more curious as to why people don't question this belief and its implications more commonly.

I don’t think you can so easily dismiss the existence of free will, but it’s largely irrelevant to a justice system anyway.

13-04-2019 11:25AM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

I don’t think you can so easily dismiss the existence of free will, but it’s largely irrelevant to a justice system anyway.

To say that Free WIill is "largely irrelevant" to the justice system is like saying that "blameworthiness" is irrelevant to the justice system, because blameworthiness (moral blame) is based on the concept of one's free will.

We already accept that killers and rapists cannot be convicted of murder when they lack sufficient moral agency (exercise of free will) due to psychiatric illness and automatism respectively.

But we continue this charade that everyone else is acting wholly freely, clinging to some quasi-religious concept of free will because the alternative is Very Inconvenient.

Hedgelayer wrote: »

This is going to be a deep discussion, free will is ok if one has the ability to work out how their will effects their own destiny.

Some religion's and spiritualists believe our roadway is laid out already.

Then you're getting into the theory of being able to manipulate time and space travel by folding something from one side to the other, like an envelope folded in half, therefore bringing one side parallel to the other in an instant, but yet they're not fully connected.

I'm talking about something far more simple here.

The idea that the physical world is controlled by the physical world, and not some supernatural force. In other words, our actions and behaviours are determined by our genes, our neuroanatomy, physiology and biochemistry (e.g. hormones). Free Will doesn't fit in to any of that.

LessOutragePlz · 13-04-2019 11:26AM

You choosing what to do with your life without interference from the government or any other organisation or group of people is free will.

/thread.

Junkyard Tom · 13-04-2019 11:28AM

Raymond Mysterious Vegetarian wrote: »

the ability to act at one's own discretion

Within certain parameters and often we act on sheer inertia which does make one wonder if we're just twigs in a torrent.

orourkeda1977 · 13-04-2019 11:31AM

Is free will free will?

What we think of as free will may not be as free as we think or would like.

There are so many external, uncontrollable and unconscious influences in life which influence our decisions that the simply declaring that "crime is a choice" is a little too simple.

I'm all for punishment to suit the crime, however, to say that all criminal simply decide to commit a crime is rather too simplistic a view

kneemos · 13-04-2019 11:43AM

How much of your day is spent doing things you don't want to do?

Franz Von Peppercorn · 13-04-2019 11:44AM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

To say that Free WIill is "largely irrelevant" to the justice system is like saying that "blameworthiness" is irrelevant to the justice system, because blameworthiness (moral blame) is based on the concept of one's free will.

It is and the justice system has to assume free will in most cases because the alternative is no justice system. I’m responding to your idea that nobody has free will, not that some people don’t.

We already accept that killers and rapists cannot be convicted of murder when they lack sufficient moral agency (exercise of free will) due to psychiatric illness and automatism respectively.

In this case the justice system has decided these people don’t have full agency, but they are generally locked up albeit in a hospital. The system still works. I’m not sure what kind of justice system you want.

But we continue this charade that everyone else is acting wholly freely, clinging to some quasi-religious concept of free will because the alternative is Very Inconvenient.

Where do you get the idea that free will is a religious idea? Plenty of religions don’t believe in free will - large tracts of Protestantism. And free will doesn’t need a belief in the supernatural. The debate isn’t settled and is complex.

I'm talking about something far more simple here.

The idea that the physical world is controlled by the physical world, and not some supernatural force. In other words, our actions and behaviours are determined by our genes, our neuroanatomy, physiology and biochemistry (e.g. hormones). Free Will doesn't fit in to any of that.

Constraints on people’s behaviour by their upbringing or genetics is not the same as being an automation, if we were automations we couldn’t change our behaviours, but humans do change behaviour all the time.

Wanderer78 · 13-04-2019 11:47AM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote:

In this case the justice system has decided these people donâ€™t have full agency, but they are generally locked up albeit in a hospital. The system still works. Iâ€™m not sure what kind of justice system you want.

But does our justice system actually work?

AllForIt · 13-04-2019 11:48AM

Who's Will and where is he being kept captive?

Robert McGrath · 13-04-2019 11:59AM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Constraints on people’s behaviour by their upbringing or genetics is not the same as being an automation, if we were automations we couldn’t change our behaviours, but humans do change behaviour all the time.

And those behavioural changes were predetermined. This entire conversation was predetermined. It’s not philosophy, it’s physics. A leads to B. We are just complicated machines. Just because we’re so complicated that we cannot predict what a particular human will do next does not make us any less automated. What was Arthur C Clarke’s line? Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic for those who do not understand it ... free will is the “magical” interpretation we impose on the cause and effect electrical activity in our brains that we call consciousness

Avatar MIA · 13-04-2019 12:00PM

Is Will a coronation street character? I better remember the Free Deirdre (pronounced like dreary) campaign.

Re free will, I think we HAD free will, but our decisions have already been made. By that I mean time doesn't exist and every moment of our lives (and before and after) we have existed still exists - we are just experiencing this element of it now (thinking it's linear). But, there's another us (infinite us) experiencing other "points" in time thinking it's the present.

https://www.bbc.com/reel/video/p04s223f/physics-suggests-that-the-future-has-already-happened

13-04-2019 12:02PM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

It is and the justice system has to assume free will in most cases because the alternative is no justice system. I’m responding to your idea that nobody has free will, not that some people don’t.

Espousing the 'free will' theory because the alternative is too inconvenient -- not exactly a glowing defence of Free Will, is it?

Since the Englightenment, western societies have generallyadhered to the belief our modes of thought, concepts and ideas ought to be subject to rigorous criticism and investigation. We have far too much BS left in society without adhering to outdated beliefs for the sake of convenience - particularly when it comes to issues like crime and society.

Where do you get the idea that free will is a religious idea? Plenty of religions don’t believe in free will - large tracts of Protestantism.

I believe I said it was quasi-religious -- i.e. it is a belief that people hold quite passionately, speak about as though it were factually or scientifically based, and for which there is absolutely no evidence. Quite the contrary - we now have alternative ways of explaining human behaviours, via genetics, biochemistry and physiology,

And free will doesn’t need a belief in the supernatural. The debate isn’t settled and is complex.

Please, elaborate. If Free Will doesn't require supernatural belief, then what is its basis in the natural world, i.e. science?

13-04-2019 12:03PM

kneemos wrote: »

How much of your day is spent doing things you don't want to do?

The absence of Free Will doesn't just control 'negative' (non-desirable) human behaviours, it also controls our hobbies and our talents.

Most of the tasks we undertake are probably things we want to do, but we didn't choose to want them, any more than we chose our flaws.

The flip side for not being morally responsible for your flaws, is that you're also not morally responsible for your achievements.

Mad_maxx · 13-04-2019 01:05PM

Raymond Mysterious Vegetarian wrote: »

Of course free will exists. It is the ability to act at one's own discretion. We all exercise free will many times every day.

True but its a completely over used term, for example when religious believers are asked " why does God allow good people to suffer", the answer is often something about free will

In truth only someone committing harm has free will, the person having harm done to them has none

Franz Von Peppercorn · 13-04-2019 01:22PM

Robert McGrath wrote: »

And those behavioural changes were predetermined. This entire conversation was predetermined. It’s not philosophy, it’s physics. A leads to B. We are just complicated machines. Just because we’re so complicated that we cannot predict what a particular human will do next does not make us any less automated. What was Arthur C Clarke’s line? Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic for those who do not understand it ... free will is the “magical” interpretation we impose on the cause and effect electrical activity in our brains that we call consciousness

Not everything is driven by physics, if we ever create artificial intelligence then the software mind would be driven by its software not the physics.

Software needs hardware to run and the hardware follows some very simple rules but the flow of electrons in a device doesn’t follow the law of physics but the rules of the software algorithm running on it.

Similarly a consciousness isn’t driven by low level chemical reactions but drives the low level chemical reactions.

This isn’t to say that the consciousness is deterministic or not but that it that it is at the level of the mind rather than individual molecules that we should be looking.

p1akuw47h5r3it · 13-04-2019 01:23PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I was chatting to some work colleagues recently about crime and punishment (the process of criminal justice, not the novel; I'm waiting for the movie to come out)

Everyone of them was adamant that punishment is an important part of the criminal process.
Why?
Because people must be hell responsible for crimes.
Why?
Because they have decided of their own free will to commit those crimes.

So far so good, until you ask 'What is this 'free will'' - I mean, physically; observably, what is it? Is free will the last great, acceptable belief in the supernatural in society today? We seem to accept it as unquestioningly as people once accepted God, but from what I've read, most scientists and even philosophers are skeptical of its existence, to say the least.

Do you believe in Free Will and why?

I find these bull**** philosophical questions to be such a waste of time.

Free Will

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