Migration Megathread

Midlife wrote: »

I'm more interested in the ample evidence Islamic immigration has had a negative effect on Europe overall.

That's overall now, not just a bad story or two.

I'm obviously not going to include countries like Poland as their Muslim population is insignificant.



Germany

Quotes from Angela Merkel, Germany's Leader

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/17/angela-merkel-german-multiculturalism-failed

"This [multicultural] approach has failed, utterly failed," Merkel told the meeting in Potsdam, west of Berlin, yesterday.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/12/14/angela-merkel-multiculturalism-is-a-sham/?utm_term=.1d8df4666e63

The speech that followed, however, may have surprised supporters of her policies: "Multiculturalism leads to parallel societies and therefore remains a ‘life lie,’ ” or a sham, she said, before adding that Germany may be reaching its limits in terms of accepting more refugees.

Public Perception and consequences of Islam

https://www.thelocal.de/20150108/muslims-make-their-home-while-germans-feel-threatened

The Bertelsman Foundation think tank survey looked at the perception of Islam in Germany from the eyes of Muslims and non-Muslims. Of the non-Muslims surveyed, 57 percent thought that Islam was threatening or very threatening to German society.

Crime

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-01-03/germany-must-come-to-terms-with-refugee-crime

"Conducted by Christian Pfeiffer, Dirk Baier and Soeren Kliem of the Zurich University of Applied Sciences, the government-commissioned study uses material from Germany's fourth-most-populous state, Lower Saxony, home to Volkswagen. About 750,000 of its 8 million residents don't have German citizenship, and, according to official data for the end of 2016, about 170,000 of them had applied for asylum. That's also the fourth-highest number in Germany. The researchers asked for data that specifically concerned asylum applicants, both successful and unsuccessful, who had arrived in 2015 and 2016. The state police -- in keeping with the unspoken taboo -- hadn't published such statistics, but they obliged the research team. It turned out the asylum seekers had reversed the decreasing violent crime trend in Lower Saxony.

While such crime went down by 21.9 percent between 2007 and 2014, it was up again by 10.4 percent by the end of 2016. Some 83 percent of the cases were solved -- and 92.1 percent of the increase was attributable to the newcomers."

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jul/11/sexual-assaults-in-germany-on-new-years-eve-far-wo/

"Over 100 women in Cologne, Duesseldorf, Frankfurt, Hamburg, Stuttgart and other cities were initially reported to have been sexually assaulted by refugees during New Year’s Eve festivities. Germany’s Sueddeutsche Zeitung newspaper and broadcasters NDR and WDR now say 1,200 women were attacked that night in crimes involving over 2,000 men.

Authorities are pursing 120 suspects. Roughly half of the men are foreign nationals who recently arrived in Germany, The Washington Post reported Monday.

“There is a connection between the emergence of this phenomenon and the rapid migration in 2015. We have to presume that many of those crimes will never be fully investigated,” Holger Münch, president of the German Federal Crime Police Office, told Sueddeutsche Zeitung, The Post reported."

Rising terrorism

https://www.dw.com/en/germany-terrorism-prosecution-cases-soar-report/a-41065442

"German federal prosecutors have opened up more than 900 terrorism-related cases so far this year, including 800 related to radical Islamists, according to a report published in the German language nespaper Welt am Sonntag on Sunday.

The number of terrorism cases has jumped nearly four-fold compared to last year, when federal prosecutors opened about 250 proceedings. In 2013, there were about 80 terrorism cases in the courts."

Rising Antisemitism

https://www.dw.com/en/jewish-council-says-anti-semitism-in-germany-is-increasing/a-39805727

"A small-scale study released by the American Jewish Committee earlier this week appeared to show an increase in anti-Semitism in Berlin's schools. Researchers interviewed 27 teachers from 21 schools in the German capital, with staff reporting they had noted a clear rise in the number of incidents.

Central Council President Schuster told the Bild am Sonntag that his organization had also observed this phenomenon "for some years unfortunately."

"The word 'Jew' is used as a term of abuse in schools and on the sports field," he said. "It's quite widespread - we're not talking about a few individual cases."

He added that levels of anti-Semitism were particularly high among Muslim students, and that there was a need for Islamic associations and schools to do more to counteract this kind of prejudice."

Prisons

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/11787/france-prison-islam-terrorism

According official statistics of the Ministry of Justice, on December 1, 2017, slightly fewer than 80,000 people were in jail and prison in France. How many Muslim inmates are there in France? It is difficult to know, because the law prohibits any data based on race, religion or origin. In 2015, an official report from a Member of Senate, Jean-René Lecerf, quoted a study saying that in four of the biggest French prisons, more 50% of prisoners are Muslims.


UK

David Cameron

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-12371994

"State multiculturalism has failed, says David Cameron"

Terrorism threat

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/huge-scale-of-terror-threat-revealed-uk-home-to-23-000-jihadists-3zvn58mhq

"Intelligence officers have identified 23,000 jihadist extremists living in Britain as potential terrorist attackers, it emerged yesterday.

The scale of the challenge facing the police and security services was disclosed by Whitehall sources after criticism that multiple opportunities to stop the Manchester bomber had been missed."

Grooming gangs throughout the UK

https://news.sky.com/story/grooming-gang-convictions-84-asian-say-researchers-11164589

"British-Pakistani researchers have found that 84% of all people convicted since 2005 for the specific crime of gang grooming were Asian."

Prisons

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/long_reads/muslim-prisoners-crime-islam-faith-moral-life-a8318306.html

"And the figures are startling. The population of Muslim prisoners doubled between 2002 and 2016, rising from 8 per cent to 15.2 per cent compared to over 4 per cent in the general population in England and Wales. This figure is higher in more secure prisons, exceeding 41 per cent in one high security prison. "

Integration

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/revealed-terror-map-of-uk-rdzmm8523

"A tenth of all Britain’s Islamist terrorists come from just five council wards in Birmingham, according to the most comprehensive study of terror convictions in the UK.

The disclosure that such highly segregated, heavily Muslim and deprived neighbourhoods have such high numbers of convictions will raise new concerns about integration and cohesion.

The 1,000-page study, obtained by The Sunday Times, says terror convictions have doubled in the past five years. The proportion of offenders who are “clean skins” — previously unknown to the authorities — has increased sharply, it says, suggesting a growing challenge for the security services."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/04/social-integration-louise-casey-uk-report-condemns-failings

The study, which was commissioned by then prime minister David Cameron and Theresa May when she was home secretary, is likely to trigger controversy. Among the findings, Casey claims:

That the scale of immigration has felt too much for some local communities as the economy hit a downturn, and concerns about public services increased.
That while segregation has reduced over the population as a whole, in a number of local areas ethnic or migrant groups have become increasingly divided.
That fears of being labelled racist have prevented society from challenging sexist, misogynistic and patriarchal behaviour in some minority communities.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law

"when asked to what extent they agreed or disagreed that homosexuality should be legal in Britain, 18% said they agreed and 52% said they disagreed, compared with 5% among the public at large who disagreed. Almost half (47%) said they did not agree that it was acceptable for a gay person to become a teacher, compared with 14% of the general population

Nearly a quarter (23%) supported the introduction of sharia law in some areas of Britain, and 39% agreed that “wives should always obey their husbands”, compared with 5% of the country as a whole. Two-thirds (66%) said they completely condemned people who took part in stoning adulterers, and a further 13% condemned them to some extent. Nearly a third (31%) thought it was acceptable for a British Muslim man to have more than one wife, compared with 8% of the wider population."

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/survey-reveals-chasm-between-muslim-values-and-rest-of-uk-d30hl55lk

"Only one in three British Muslims would tip off the police if they believed that somebody close to them had become involved with terrorist sympathisers, a poll has revealed.

More than 100,000 British Muslims sympathise with suicide bombers and people who commit other terrorist acts, the survey suggests."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1569806/Channel-4-vindicated-over-Undercover-Mosque.html

Channel 4 vindicated over Undercover Mosque An undercover program in Britains biggest Mosques

The programme featured undercover recordings from speakers alleged to be homophobic, anti-Semitic, sexist and condemnatory of non-Muslims.

Excerpts from preachers and teachers included "Allah created the woman deficient" and "by the age of ten, it becomes an obligation on us to force her (young girls) to wear hijab and if she doesn't wear hijab, we hit her".

Other statements included "take that homosexual and throw him off the mountain" and "whoever changes his religion from Al Islam to anything else - kill him in the Islamic state".

France

Prisons

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11352268/What-is-going-wrong-in-Frances-prisons.html

"Of the 67,500 people currently behind bars in France, it is estimated that 70 per cent are Muslim – when they comprise only eight per cent of the French public. It is illegal under France’s strict laicity laws to count the number of Muslim prisoners, but experts agree that the figure is an accurate average – with some prisons, like those near Paris and Marseille, seeing an even higher percentage."

Integration

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/17/french-bar-tells-women-isnt-paris-men/

"A quiet Paris bar where men play cards and bet on horses has become the unlikely focus of a national row over alleged no-go zones for women in predominantly Muslim areas.

The bar in the impoverished north-eastern suburb of Sevran is accused of being one of many in France where women are effectively banned.

The neighbourhood, near Charles de Gaulle airport, is notorious as one of France’s leading exporters of jihadists. "

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/struggling-to-prevent-terrorist-attacks-france-wants-to-reform-islam/2018/04/16/b81a20c6-1d67-11e8-98f5-ceecfa8741b6_story.html

"Struggling to prevent terrorist attacks, France wants to reform Islam"

Terrorism threat

https://www.thelocal.fr/20180530/france-bans-big-screen-zones-for-world-cup-over-terror-fears

"France has become the first country to ban popular World Cup fan zones which show games on big screens in public places due to terror fears. The Ministry of the Interior – France’s equivalent to the Home Office – announced the ‘big screen zones’ would be forbidden in French cities during the Russia 2018 tournament."

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/controversy-builds-in-france-as-130-jihadists-to-return-from-syria-1.3778009

"Opposition politicians in France have responded with alarm to government confirmation that 130 French jihadists are to be repatriated from Syria."

Belgium

https://www.politico.eu/article/belgium-failed-state-security-services-molenbeek-terrorism/

" Belgium is a failed state -

That the Paris terrorist attacks had strong links to a suburb of Brussels didn't shock many of us who live in the Belgian capital. Radio stations here in both French and Dutch are full of discussions about Molenbeek that elicit indignation, sorrow, anger, guilt, despair, defiance. But not surprise.

Friday’s attacks in Paris were but the latest in a litany of jihadist incidents over the last two years involving people with ties to Molenbeek, including the 2014 shooting at the Jewish museum in Brussels, the Charlie Hebdo attacks in January and the failed attack in August on a Thalys train."

https://www.politico.eu/article/belgium-muslim-background-flemish-see-islam-western-values-as-incompatible/

"Only 18 percent of native Flemish Belgians consider Muslim values to be compatible with their way of life, according a survey on integration released Tuesday."

https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2018/03/30/593979013/in-denmark-s-plan-to-rid-country-of-ghettos-some-immigrants-hear-go-home

"In a move aimed at ensuring an integrated Denmark without "parallel societies" and to protect "Danishness," the Danish government recently released a plan to rid the country in the next 12 years of areas it officially calls "ghettos."

In Denmark, the word "ghetto" is a legal designation typically applied to a neighborhood with more than 1,000 residents, meeting at least two of the following three criteria (though additional criteria are sometimes also applied):"

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/music/news/swedish-music-festival-go-women-only-following-string-sexual/

"Sweden's biggest music festival will be replaced next year by a women-only alternative after reports of a series of rapes and sexual assaults at this year's event.

Bråvalla Festival, which this year was headlined by The Killers, The Chainsmokers and Skepta, has been blighted by news of sexual crime since its inception in 2013, while last weekend saw four rapes and 23 sexual assaults reported over the course of the four-day event. In 2016, five rapes and 12 sexual assaults were reported from the event"


This is taking far too long and I have work tomorrow, I've spent well over an hour trying to survey a sense of the problems in 3 major European countries, I'll add more to it when I have time tomorrow. I haven't mentioned the terrorist attacks or higher threat level across Europe (street barriers, spending etc) and overall social problems including assimilation

Midlife wrote: »

peddlelies wrote: »

Like I said, your examples don't make any sense at all. They're overly simplistic and doesn't consider real world factors like culture and religion.

If I'm a Jewish gay male, am I safer in Ireland than I am in a country like Iran? What about if I'm a Women, will I experience the same human rights Europe offers compared to that of certain Islamic Countries.

To paraphrase, even though I'm just "another man" over there and there's "men already in Iran" would it be a wise choice to move there?

You can't equate complex differences in culture as a black and white issue, the simplicity of what you're saying is like having a pair of dogs that don't get along and deciding to get more because they're dogs too. Doesn't make any sense.

So are you saying that some men are worse than others? There are actually nuances to men?

Interesting thought.

So perhaps I shouldn't post every bad thing a man does here and claim it says something about all men?

I'll try to take that on board.

Perhaps we should consider that before painting 2.5 billion people as all pretty much the same.

Interesting to see the Muslim hive myth being pushed.

RandomName2 wrote: »

It is clearly the case that Islamic countries are much more conservative than countries in the EU. Naturally they are not all the same, but if you look at laws concerning homosexuality for instance, there is a clear pattern where homosexuality is illegal in Islamic countries (with the exception of Lebanon, and arguably Kosovo). Apostocy is typically punishable by death.

I'm well aware that illegality of homosexuality is within living memory here (although Ireland was notoriously far more conservative than most other European countries). However, from the point of view of immigration, moving individuals from one society to a very different one is likely to generate problems.

Well the problem with this is that those people who are being killed for being gay, those women who are being attacked for revealing skin and those who are shunned or worse for apostasy are all from the same countries. So when you close the border to the people oppressing them you also close the border to the people who suffer for sharing our views.

RandomName2 wrote: »

Teething problems? I'm not sure. Much of the extremism witnessed has been from second generation immigrants, and that's why, as I said, it's so concerning. Is there a connection between conservative societies and extremism? Not directly, but I think there's grounds to believe that when you have different, very distinct groups of peoples, that it generally ends badly

It's hard to pick out the cause but I would believe it's more likely to be overcompensation for being cut off from their culture than some remnant of their parents culture. When a person feels like they are losing their identity they will fight for it. These are the kinds of people that are prime targets for radicalisation. Maybe there's too much pressure on immigrant offspring to abandon their parents culture in favour of their native one. Maybe assimilation should not be the goal.

RandomName2 wrote: »

Most of Europe's recent history has been people of different nationalities struggling for independence, secession, unification, or dominance. Even where religion has been a major contributing factor in terms of such division (i.e. Ireland), it has been as a part of nationalistic sentiment. I think a major question remains whether religious differences will pose a significant risk to the long term integration of groups coming into Europe.

A possible approach to this would be the encouragement of secularization of immigrants. While this naturally wouldn't remove ethnic or cultural differences between locals and immigrants, it would certainly hold promise in terms of integration. However, outside of France, secularization attempts have been pretty paltry. There are Muslim schools, if I recall, in the UK now. Religious schools. I am not sure how they intend to smooth that division.

Again, you are confusing assimilation with integration. A policy of secularizing people is just the same as forcing conversion to a religion. It will be resisted.

MrFresh wrote: »

Haven't they introduced mandatory integration classes for children?

Only for ghetto welfare children who are specifically at risk of being radicalised, you don't approve of this effort to assist integration?

MrFresh wrote: »

They are aimed at introducing children to Danish values that are pushed. I know you're probably thinking that is a good thing but who decides the values?

Who decides Danish values? Well Denmark does obvs (eyeroll).

Through it's democratic government and public cultural bodies, placed and supported by it's free, expressive and public electorate.

MrFresh wrote: »

It's a pretty over the top authoritarian in my view.

Asking at high risk groups to learn a few words of their new {choosen} land, shake hands, and take a few notes e.g. That Western women (and minorities) have equal rights to everyone else. This is all very authoritarian in your view?

MrFresh wrote: »

No, too authoritarian for my liking. Something about forcing children to spend 30 hours a week learning how to be "good citizens" doesn't sit right.

Only applies to at high risk ghetto welfare kids. You'd prefer them to do as they like within their ghetto areas, than have free assitance which can only be of benefit to them, going forward, in their chosen new land.

Many schools have 'special assistance classes' for special needs kids, to enhance their future. It may be math, speech and very often special needs such as autism. You likely would disaprove of all this also?

MrFresh wrote: »

Governments change. What happens when someone like the DUP get into power and bring their bigoted dogma along with them. Would you be happy with your kid being thought by their beliefs?

A couple of the DUP's views (mainly based aound gay marrige), are a drop in the ocean compared to much of the dogma of Islamic teaching. A poor example from you.

Would you prefer your kids are taught to despise gays and directly/indirectly oppress women?

MrFresh wrote: »

You're using the word asking, that's not what is being suggested.

They're 'asking' new citizens to shake hands when applying to become citizens. This is a free choice, which affects the application, this is made clear. The choice is open and free: choose to attempt to integrate, or not.

Midlife wrote: »

I'd be curious to see how denmark works out over the next 20 years.

They're legislating against the problems on integration both in terms of demanding secularisation and as the other poster mentioned above, actively working to stop ghettos forming.

My gut feeling is they'll probably get it right long term.

It really is a problem of volume and integration though.

Denmark is an interesting example, one of the most welcoming of all eu states to new non-eu arrivals, but like Sweden have now swung in the entirely opposite direction, and resorting to new mthodologies.

Last year they were 100/1 to leave the EU next, but are now in the top10, and 18/1.

Would not rule out Swe (top5) +Den leaving the current/expanding eu in the next 10yrs, and maybe forming their own union, perhaps with the uk, Iceland etc. So any 'long-term' game, might not exist.

This new Nordic EU Union may well have new border controls that makes Trump look tame. Classic problem:reaction event.

You raised a valid point, 'volume'.

In just a few short years, (decades, if not many generations) of neighbourly Irish migrants in the uk, have been overtaken as the 2nd largest ethnic group by Romanians.

Thankfuly Romanians (with some obvious exceptions) have integrated well, but the volume (and speed) of change may impact the natives choices greater.

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

So we shouldn't teach right from wrong? The teenagers of today will be the parents of tomorrow. But yeah just let the cycle continue :rolleyes:

Parents should teach right from wrong.

MrFresh wrote: »

Other than natural consequences and legal consequences.

Refusing laws of citizenship, will have natural consequences and legal consequences, but you're ok with refusing this on the other hand.

Briggs Full Sunblock wrote: »

Refusing laws of citizenship, will have natural consequences and legal consequences, but you're ok with refusing this on the other hand.

No, I think the integration laws we were discussing should not be imposed.