An Taisce Green Schools

markodaly · 08-04-2019 02:00PM

_Brian wrote: »

What’s childish is people posting jere with their hidden addenda and not being honest. As is the usually vegan approach emissions are being used in this argument against animal farming when we all know that is not the actual drive behind the conversation.

VandV want an end to animal farming to satisfy their emotional discomfort with the practice. They are happy to burden food miles and suffer the associated damage to the environment to satisfy their emotional discomfort.

Not admitting that really shines a light on their propaganda policies.

At least as an omnivore and a farmer I will happily say I’ve no interest in ending farming and consumption of animals. I believe it can be done better than some of the current practices but in itself it’s an ethical and nutritious source of food for a growing population.

That is fine and would agree with you in way about some modern Veganism. It can become a bit of -ism, just like defending Irish farmers in this forum looks like to be its own -ism.

Anyway, I am not vegan nor vegetarian so what they do is no concern of mine.

The issue I have is the destruction of our planet for profit under the guise of old wives tales about how to get quality nutrition.

If there were 1 billion people on earth, this would not be an issue but alas it is, so it has to be faced up to.

_Brian · 08-04-2019 02:01PM

markodaly wrote: »

No, the best we can do is reduce our intake of beef and dairy.
Next best would be to buy only from sustainable producers who have independently verified carbon offset programmes

The worst course of action is, of course, to buy cheap Brazilian beef. Irish farmers come above that for sure, but that is like winning the prize of the thinnest kid at fat camp.

Beef and dairy from Irish farms is an exceptional product, healthy and nutritious, locally and ethically produced. It’s low in food miles, traceable back to the farm and trustworthy.
There are definite positive changes that could be made in its production but there is no reason to reduce its consumption to replace that with imported over processed products like soy juice or factory made meat substitutes that are far worse foods and worse for the environment.

markodaly · 08-04-2019 02:02PM

gozunda wrote: »

Yeah like you detailed that. Of course. :rolleyes:

Well you presumed one would eat raw Soya beans.

Nope. Incorrect. The point is many of your 'points' are both disingenuous and contradictory at best. I'm sorry if you do not like that these were highlighted - because that's what the discussion is.

My own personal eating habits really have nothing to do with the arguments.
Its a classic tactic of playing the man.

_Brian · 08-04-2019 02:08PM

markodaly wrote: »

That is fine and would agree with you in way about some modern Veganism. It can become a bit of -ism, just like defending Irish farmers in this forum looks like to be its own -ism.

Anyway, I am not vegan nor vegetarian so what they do is no concern of mine.

The issue I have is the destruction of our planet for profit under the guise of old wives tales about how to get quality nutrition.

If there were 1 billion people on earth, this would not be an issue but alas it is, so it has to be faced up to.

The big difference is agriculture as it stands has fed the worlds population, it’s a proven entity capable of producing quality nutritious foods.

Vegans want to throw this all away because of their emotional discomfort.

Stopping 50% of airline travel tomorrow would have a better impact and still allow food production which is actually important to humans. But no, because when we shine a light on the truth it’s about animal farming and not really the environment at all.

In addition VandV diets are more and more being hijacked busy conglomerates producing hyper processed foods to fit the market. These consume chemicals energy and air miles to come to market, this is no sustainable alternative.

Extensive farming of animals is tue solution where we sequester more carbon than produce while in parallel produce superior animal based products that people love and want.

gozunda · 08-04-2019 02:32PM

markodaly wrote: »

No, the best we can do is reduce our intake of beef and dairy.Next best would be to buy only from sustainable producers who have independently verified carbon offset programmes

The worst course of action is, of course, to buy cheap Brazilian beef. Irish farmers come above that for sure, but that is like winning the prize of the thinnest kid at fat camp.

Well I'd guess - you best be the one puting on the trousers with that advice coming from you.

markodaly wrote:

...I say this as someone who eats meat twice a day, 7 times a week.

Whether beef or otherwise - you'd better do something about your self imposed carbon footprint or alternatively take yourself outside for a good talking to.

Better to pratice than preach imo.

markodaly wrote: »

Well you presumed one would eat raw Soya beans

No one here is fooled by attempts to dig your way out of that hole tbh. It remains you deliberatly conflated raw 'soy' and 'milk'. Like this...

...there is a ready-made, better alternative for people right there.

Raw Soy beans are far from 'ready made' or 'better' ...

You ignore the detail with soy beans is ' the phytate content found in soy products. Phytate is known as an anti-nutrient and when ingested in high doses may inhibit the absorption of calcium in the body. Soy actually has one of the highest phytate contents. This means that whilst soy milk etc made with calcium sulfate are sources of calcium, but such products are also sources of the anti-nutrient that reduces calcium absorption.

My own personal eating habits really have nothing to do with the arguments.
Its a classic tactic of playing the man.

Nope. Incorrect. You posted about that in your own comments. My reply relates to that which was written in this thread.

BarryD2 · 08-04-2019 02:39PM

markodaly wrote: »

As I already stated, I eat meat all the time, but it's funny that you cannot comprehend a meat eater with a different point of view. It's actually irrelevant to the argument but you seem to take issue with it.

That's just about sums it up. I don't think anyone believes that this Green Schools campaign is going to change the world. But what's puzzling is the complete over reaction to it. It's almost as if you can't say 'boo' to certain lobbies, you can't say the king has no clothes on, because then you are a traitor. The reaction is along the lines - if you not for us, you're agin us.

Whereas it's possible to be on both sides and takes what's best overall.

I genuinely wish the farming industry well, particularly the smaller enterprises, the 'family farm'. I do have some doubts regarding the industrial scale dairy & beef enterprises.

gozunda · 08-04-2019 02:56PM

BarryD2 wrote: »

That's just about sums it up. I don't think anyone believes that this Green Schools campaign is going to change the world. But what's puzzling is the complete over reaction to it. It's almost as if you can't say 'boo' to certain lobbies, you can't say the king has no clothes on, because then you are a traitor. The reaction is along the lines - if you not for us, you're agin us.

Whereas it's possible to be on both sides and takes what's best overall.

I genuinely wish the farming industry well, particularly the smaller enterprises, the 'family farm'. I do have some doubts regarding the industrial scale dairy & beef enterprises.

You think pointing out what's clearly wrong with that piece of smooze is an 'over reaction'?

As has been pointed out not only is it badly put together - it clearly contains erroneous content and blatant omissions. And this from material which is supposed to be educating young people.

The peculiar thing is that the reaction from some is along the lines - 'oh well it can't be criticised'. No where are there places where things like that are commonplace? Hmmm...

Tbh if I was a teacher I'd be giving it an F- and putting it in the nearest bin. If that's an 'overreaction' then so be it

Xcellor · 08-04-2019 03:06PM

_Brian wrote: »

The big difference is agriculture as it stands has fed the worlds population, it’s a proven entity capable of producing quality nutritious foods.

Does this food necessarily need to be animals though to be quality and nutritious?

Vegans want to throw this all away because of their emotional discomfort.

Yeah who cares about animals, they are just considered "stock" after all. The movement to adopt a plant based diet is not just an ethical one tho...

In addition VandV diets are more and more being hijacked busy conglomerates producing hyper processed foods to fit the market. These consume chemicals energy and air miles to come to market, this is no sustainable alternative.

Processed foods in all formats containing animal bits etc have been around forever. We have a couple of companies that venture into plant based and its a creating an air miles problem? Plant based foods do not need to be processed, in fact the advocates on health grounds are clear it's "whole food plant based" that will provide the best benefits.

Extensive farming of animals is tue solution where we sequester more carbon than produce while in parallel produce superior animal based products that people love and want.

If Ireland is a leading example of sustainable animal agriculture why hasn't this been achieved? We can't produce enough food to feed the cattle we have and huge air miles involved.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/farming/we-depend-two-times-more-on-imported-animal-feed-than-our-neighbours-832683.html

Co Cork dairy farmer Peter Hynes operates a grass-based system. But the 90 tonnes of animal feed he uses annually contains soya, something he’s trying to change.

The fact that most imported soya is genetically-modified (GM)

Most Irish consumers are completely unaware that their lovely "grass fed" beef is being supplemented with this crap.

Del.Monte · 08-04-2019 03:30PM

_Brian wrote: »

Interesting article showing how animal farming was incorrectly given such a bad reputation regarding emissions.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/theconversation.com/amp/yes-eating-meat-affects-the-environment-but-cows-are-not-killing-the-climate-94968

Misinformation and propaganda are strong tools.
The emotional issues Vegans and Veggies have associated with farming are indeed very strong, but it’s important to know it doesn’t make them right. Because they really really beleive in something does not make it true. The only parallel that can be drawn accurately is cult membership where the end belief overpowers all else.

It's well known that the burgeoning transport sector - private cars, trucks and planes in particular - are in no way responsible for global warming. Cows belching are the obvious culprits.

Dakota Dan · 08-04-2019 03:57PM

markodaly wrote: »

Studies have shown that it could be done, with less impact on the environment than we do now.
It is a big wide-ranging question, I am not sure anyone really knows the full answer to it, but it will definitely head that way.

For example, dairy consumption in the west is falling, and it's likely that will be replicated in Asia, where consumption has skyrocketed. We are at peak dairy I feel.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-10-17/america-is-drowning-in-milk-nobody-wants

With world populations still growing but rate of growth slowing, with environmental awareness growing in Asia and elsewhere, then dairy farming is definitely on the decline. Even beef might be at peak beef as its consumption is also on the decline.

I just think we need to speed up these declines.

More vegan wishful thinking, meanwhile farm gate milk price in the US remains stable. liquid milk consumption is dropping but other dairy products are on the increase.
https://www.clal.it/en/index.php?section=latte_usa

_Brian · 08-04-2019 04:01PM

Xcellor wrote: »

Does this food necessarily need to be animals though to be quality and nutritious?

Yeah who cares about animals, they are just considered "stock" after all. The movement to adopt a plant based diet is not just an ethical one tho...

Processed foods in all formats containing animal bits etc have been around forever. We have a couple of companies that venture into plant based and its a creating an air miles problem? Plant based foods do not need to be processed, in fact the advocates on health grounds are clear it's "whole food plant based" that will provide the best benefits.

If Ireland is a leading example of sustainable animal agriculture why hasn't this been achieved? We can't produce enough food to feed the cattle we have and huge air miles involved.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/farming/we-depend-two-times-more-on-imported-animal-feed-than-our-neighbours-832683.html

Most Irish consumers are completely unaware that their lovely "grass fed" beef is being supplemented with this crap.

Does this food necessarily need to be animals though to be quality and nutritious?
YES it does, the best diet is a varied diet including meat and dairy

Yeah who cares about animals, they are just considered "stock" after all. The movement to adopt a plant based diet is not just an ethical one tho...
Farmers care about animals or stock or whatever term you want to use, its a Vegan myth that farmers dont care for the welfare of their stock, pure vegan propaganda.

Processed foods in all formats containing animal bits etc have been around forever. We have a couple of companies that venture into plant based and its a creating an air miles problem? Plant based foods do not need to be processed, in fact the advocates on health grounds are clear it's "whole food plant based" that will provide the best benefits.
No processed foods have not been around forever, thats a bizarre claim, it is proven through that as society eats more processed foods the society health declines.

If Ireland is a leading example of sustainable animal agriculture why hasn't this been achieved? We can't produce enough food to feed the cattle we have and huge air miles involved.

I have nowhere said we are leading the way, we should change to lead the way, though many of us are farming extensively already

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/farming/we-depend-two-times-more-on-imported-animal-feed-than-our-neighbours-832683.html

Most Irish consumers are completely unaware that their lovely "grass fed" beef is being supplemented with this crap.
This "crap" you speak of is much of what veggie and vegan imitation foods is made of, worth thinking about the phrasing a bit more.

I do strongly feel we need to move away from industrial style farming that has started to creep in, I've stated that many times.

gozunda · 08-04-2019 04:02PM

Del.Monte wrote: »

It's well known that the burgeoning transport sector - private cars, trucks and planes in particular - are in no way responsible for global warming. Cows belching are the obvious culprits.

No incorrect - do keep up and remember it's only those culpable 'western' cows which are farting and belching with blatant disregard for the planet.

All Indian and Chinese cows (top 2 countries for cattle) are nothing like this and should not be mentioned at all...

emaherx · 08-04-2019 04:43PM

markodaly wrote: »

No, the best we can do is reduce our intake of beef and dairy.
Next best would be to buy only from sustainable producers who have independently verified carbon offset programmes

The worst course of action is, of course, to buy cheap Brazilian beef. Irish farmers come above that for sure, but that is like winning the prize of the thinnest kid at fat camp.

Verified carbon offset programs?

Maintaining grass land is a verified carbon offset, which is being completely ignored.

https://phys.org/news/2018-07-grasslands-reliable-carbon-trees.html

Sheep breeder · 08-04-2019 06:12PM

markodaly wrote: »

How much plants and trees do beef and dairy farmers plant and grow.
Worldwide, more vegetation is destroyed and cleared to make way for cattle.

https://www.worldwildlife.org/industries/beef

Please educate yourself before making silly statements.

https://www.meatfreemondays.com/meat-eating-contributes-second-worst-year-rainforest-destruction/

Now if your actual point was about these beef farmers replacing lost tree and vegetation somewhere else, then we can talk.

Just joining this now, above you ask the question how many trees do farmers sow and grow, answer they maintain the hedgerows and landscapes on their farms and take great pride and care of their farm and lands and all try to pass it on to the next generation. The one thing that us Irish are known for is the love of the land. So to say farmers are not planting in the Reps, Glas schemes and forestry all has being planted.

Dakota Dan · 08-04-2019 07:28PM

Sheep breeder wrote: »

Just joining this now, above you ask the question how many trees do farmers sow and grow, answer they maintain the hedgerows and landscapes on their farms and take great pride and care of their farm and lands and all try to pass it on to the next generation. The one thing that us Irish are known for is the love of the land. So to say farmers are not planting in the Reps, Glas schemes and forestry all has being planted.

And a select few airlines with a voluntary payment to recycle rubbish are some offsetting their massive carbon footprint and all the fuel they dump into the ocean. A pure joke.

Say my name · 08-04-2019 07:47PM

An Taisce is way behind the curve here.
I've a feeling they most likely have succumbed to the "vegan" dollar.

But putting vegan an taisce aside. There was a study done by the leading environmental scientists in the world.
The result was a book/report called Drawdown. 100 solutions to fight Global Warming.

Now these were grown ups who recognize the role ruminants have in the carbon cycle on grasslands and farming and feeding people.

Anyhoo.

Silvopasture - That's combining growing trees on pasture grazed by ruminants that in itself sequesters carbon.
The scientists gave a figure of 31.19 gigatons of carbon took down for this one.

Managed Grazing - It's called mob grazing in the U.S. It's grazing animals in a group for a short period of time on a piece of ground and then moving them to allow that pasture to recover before grazing again. This has the potential of 16.34 Gigatons of carbon.

Farmland Restoration - That is farmland that has been abused by too much tillage or over abused grazing. Restoring that land to productivity again has the potential to take down 14.08 Gigatons.

Interesting book.

Dakota Dan · 08-04-2019 08:17PM

Say my name wrote: »

An Taisce is way behind the curve here.
I've a feeling they most likely have succumbed to the "vegan" dollar.

But putting vegan an taisce aside. There was a study done by the leading environmental scientists in the world.
The result was a book/report called Drawdown. 100 solutions to fight Global Warming.

Now these were grown ups who recognize the role ruminants have in the carbon cycle on grasslands and farming and feeding people.

Anyhoo.

Silvopasture - That's combining growing trees on pasture grazed by ruminants that in itself sequesters carbon.
The scientists gave a figure of 31.19 gigatons of carbon took down for this one.

Managed Grazing - It's called mob grazing in the U.S. It's grazing animals in a group for a short period of time on a piece of ground and then moving them to allow that pasture to recover before grazing again. This has the potential of 16.34 Gigatons of carbon.

Farmland Restoration - That is farmland that has been abused by too much tillage or over abused grazing. Restoring that land to productivity again has the potential to take down 14.08 Gigatons.

Interesting book.

Silvopasture, we’ve that in Ireland for years tres on the ditches and cattle in the field.

markodaly · 09-04-2019 12:06AM

_Brian wrote: »

The big difference is agriculture as it stands has fed the worlds population, it’s a proven entity capable of producing quality nutritious foods.

It is also proving to be immensely damaging to the environment. Our wildlife is being destroyed bit by bit, because of agriculture.

There are better ways, but some don't want to recognise their own part in it.

Stopping 50% of airline travel tomorrow would have a better impact and still allow food production which is actually important to humans. But no, because when we shine a light on the truth it’s about animal farming and not really the environment at all.

As I mentioned the airline industry is and was in the spotlight. The chairman of IAG, Willie Walsh wants to implement a plan to reduce emissions from airplanes by 50% by 2050. What are the IFA and board bia doing and proposing? Lobbying the government to stop carbon taxes.

Your example is whataboutery.

Extensive farming of animals is tue solution where we sequester more carbon than produce while in parallel produce superior animal based products that people love and want.

Ah, more livestock is the solution.... got it.
I await you referencing a scientific paper with that solution.

markodaly · 09-04-2019 12:14AM

_Brian wrote: »

Beef and dairy from Irish farms is an exceptional product, healthy and nutritious, locally and ethically produced. It’s low in food miles, traceable back to the farm and trustworthy.

All well and good, but we export 90% of it. Therefore your points are effectively mute. Ireland is part and parcel of the worlds global food supply chain with all the drawbacks that come with it.

There are definite positive changes that could be made in its production but there is no reason to reduce its consumption to replace that with imported over processed products like soy juice or factory made meat substitutes that are far worse foods and worse for the environment.

All the studies I have seen show us that in regards to agriculture, beef is the worst of the lot. Soy and other plant-based alternatives may not be perfect but many are superior to beef.

markodaly · 09-04-2019 12:30AM

Del.Monte wrote: »

It's well known that the burgeoning transport sector - private cars, trucks and planes in particular - are in no way responsible for global warming. Cows belching are the obvious culprits.

This forum is the king of whataboutery.

Comments like above are just there to try and deflect any attention to the lack of action and change happening to the agriculture industry.

Again, I will state, that the transport industry has been in the crosshairs of environmentalists for decades.
Finally, it appears that there is a fundamental change of thought here, most notably the adoption of battery cells for EV's.
Diesel cars are being banned from many European cities, thus ringing the death knell of these type of cars.

gozunda · 09-04-2019 12:32AM

markodaly wrote: »

It is also proving to be immensely damaging to the environment. Our wildlife is being destroyed bit by bit, because of agriculture.There are better ways, but some don't want to recognise their own part in it....

Perhaps you should tell us what these "better ways" are then as you appear to be an expert in agriculture.

I await you referencing a scientific paper with that solution

markodaly · 09-04-2019 12:41AM

Dakota Dan wrote: »

More vegan wishful thinking, meanwhile farm gate milk price in the US remains stable. liquid milk consumption is dropping but other dairy products are on the increase.
https://www.clal.it/en/index.php?section=latte_usa

No, its a fact. Overall dairy consumption in the west has fallen and is falling.

markodaly · 09-04-2019 12:45AM

gozunda wrote: »

No incorrect - do keep up and remember it's only those culpable 'western' cows which are farting and belching with blatant disregard for the planet.

All Indian and Chinese cows (top 2 countries for cattle) are nothing like this and should not be mentioned at all...

Actually, its Brazil that has more cattle than China.
India has a spiritual connection and reverence for cows, which is why they are number 1.

markodaly · 09-04-2019 12:47AM

emaherx wrote: »

Verified carbon offset programs?

Maintaining grass land is a verified carbon offset, which is being completely ignored.

https://phys.org/news/2018-07-grasslands-reliable-carbon-trees.html

True, but that doesn't mean we have to but cattle on it.

brightspark · 09-04-2019 01:15AM

Will the school kids follow this anyway, some might but the majority will still eat their big macs etc., anyone who thinks otherwise should look at how ineffective other similar campaigns are.

markodaly · 09-04-2019 01:21AM

gozunda wrote: »

Perhaps you should tell us what these "better ways" are then as you appear to be an expert in agriculture.

I await you referencing a scientific paper with that solution

https://eatforum.org/eat-lancet-commission/
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0594-0

You are welcome.

Mooooo · 09-04-2019 01:22AM

markodaly wrote: »

Actually, its Brazil that has more cattle than China.
India has a spiritual connection and reverence for cows, which is why they are number 1.

India is the largest producer of milk in the world , it's their rapidly expanding population consumes all of it.

gozunda · 09-04-2019 01:26AM

markodaly wrote: »

Actually, its Brazil that has more cattle than China.
India has a spiritual connection and reverence for cows, which is why they are number 1.

And China/ Hong Kong combined is the single biggest importer of Beef / cattle from Brazil so yeah if you want to be pedantic I suppose it depends whether they are alive or dead.

As for India and 'spiritual connection and reverence' (sic) it's largely irrelevant to the fact that the country has 75 million dairy farms, more than anywhere else in the world. In 2016 India ranked joint first in the world for beef production with Brazil.

I'd also suggest you take a more detailed look at the money and investment by China in Brazil. It makes some chilling reading for the fate of the environment and wildlife there. We dont have a look in tbh.

gozunda · 09-04-2019 01:29AM

markodaly wrote: »

https://eatforum.org/eat-lancet-commission/
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0594-0
You are welcome.

Well It would be great if you could actually explain why you believe these two particular papers are the solutions as you understand them and as was asked that

Perhaps you should tell us what these "better ways" are then as you appear to be an expert in agriculture. I await you referencing a scientific paper with that solution

Btw Link dumping - doesn't make for a discussion. Especially considering the second reference is also behind a Pay to View firewall ...

_Brian · 09-04-2019 04:07AM

markodaly wrote: »

This forum is the king of whataboutery.

Comments like above are just there to try and deflect any attention to the lack of action and change happening to the agriculture industry.

Again, I will state, that the transport industry has been in the crosshairs of environmentalists for decades.
Finally, it appears that there is a fundamental change of thought here, most notably the adoption of battery cells for EV's.
Diesel cars are being banned from many European cities, thus ringing the death knell of these type of cars.

Irish farming has had successful environmental improvment schemes going back as far as Reps1 a few decades ago, encouraging tree planting and margins at open water courses.
Current Glas scheme still builds on that principle but includes options for bees, bats, bird boxes, hectares of wild bird cover. There are strict hedge rules where anything removed must be replanted in same distance.

Irish farming has been working environment measures, carbon emissions relating specifically to agriculture is in research stages with Teagasc our national governmental body, and we are awaiting that outcome. Perhaps you could move on and harass them for a while.

I guarantee their solution will not be an end to meat and dairy farming so it’s unlikely to satisfy v and v moaners.

I’ve said before, animal farming is being incorrectly calculated and part of the Teagasc research, in conjunction with other major European countries is to quantify our carbon sequestration figures to make a proper reflection.

Excluding reductions in dairy and meat because that’s your real addenda here perhaps you could give opinions on solutions regarding carbon emission reduction.