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Ongoing religious scandals

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    #3272
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,225 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Ban??

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #3273
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,729 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Xzavier Loud Steam wrote: »
    The worrying thing about FGM is that it's illegal in Ireland, but it still occurs and no ones ever been charged for it afaik, even after presenting at A&E.

    Not so, from 2017 - https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/district-court/couple-in-court-charged-with-female-genital-mutilation-1.3335361 I agree that FGM is a brutal crime and should be treated as such. The links to FGM and religion are somewhat tenuous and it pre-dates Islam in the countries where it is practiced. From Wikipedia;
    Surveys have shown a widespread belief, particularly in Mali, Mauritania, Guinea and Egypt, that FGM is a religious requirement. Gruenbaum has argued that practitioners may not distinguish between religion, tradition and chastity, making it difficult to interpret the data. FGM's origins in northeastern Africa are pre-Islamic, but the practice became associated with Islam because of that religion's focus on female chastity and seclusion. There is no mention of it in the Quran. It is praised in a few daʻīf (weak) hadith (sayings attributed to Muhammad) as noble but not required, although it is regarded as obligatory by the Shafi'i version of Sunni Islam. In 2007 the Al-Azhar Supreme Council of Islamic Research in Cairo ruled that FGM had "no basis in core Islamic law or any of its partial provisions".

    There is no mention of FGM in the Bible. Christian missionaries in Africa were among the first to object to FGM, but Christian communities in Africa do practise it. A 2013 UNICEF report identified 17 African countries in which at least 10 percent of Christian women and girls aged 15 to 49 had undergone FGM; in Niger 55 percent of Christian women and girls had experienced it, compared with two percent of their Muslim counterparts. The only Jewish group known to have practised it are the Beta Israel of Ethiopia. Judaism requires male circumcision, but does not allow FGM. FGM is also practised by animist groups, particularly in Guinea and Mali.


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    #3274
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    smacl wrote: »
    Not so, from 2017 - https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/district-court/couple-in-court-charged-with-female-genital-mutilation-1.3335361 I agree that FGM is a brutal crime and should be treated as such. The links to FGM and religion are somewhat tenuous and it pre-dates Islam in the countries where it is practiced. From Wikipedia;Surveys have shown a widespread belief, particularly in Mali, Mauritania, Guinea and Egypt, that FGM is a religious requirement. Gruenbaum has argued that practitioners may not distinguish between religion, tradition and chastity, making it difficult to interpret the data. FGM's origins in northeastern Africa are pre-Islamic, but the practice became associated with Islam because of that religion's focus on female chastity and seclusion. There is no mention of it in the Quran.It is praised in a few daʻīf (weak) hadith (sayings attributed to Muhammad) as noble but not required, although it is regarded as obligatory by the Shafi'i version of Sunni Islam. In 2007 the Al-Azhar Supreme Council of Islamic Research in Cairo ruled that FGM had "no basis in core Islamic law or any of its partial provisions".
    There is no mention of FGM in the Bible. Christian missionaries in Africa were among the first to object to FGM, but Christian communities in Africa do practise it. A 2013 UNICEF report identified 17 African countries in which at least 10 percent of Christian women and girls aged 15 to 49 had undergone FGM; in Niger 55 percent of Christian women and girls had experienced it, compared with two percent of their Muslim counterparts. The only Jewish group known to have practised it are the Beta Israel of Ethiopia. Judaism requires male circumcision, but does not allow FGM. FGM is also practised by animist groups, particularly in Guinea and Mali.
    3 key things from the link; African country, Koran, Asylum seeker.
    No need for all the rest of the esoteric bullcrap.


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    #3275
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,729 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    recedite wrote: »
    3 key things from the link; African country, Koran, Asylum seeker.
    No need for all the rest of the esoteric bullcrap.

    Other than your ongoing antipathy towards asylum seekers and Muslims, what exactly is the point you're trying to make?


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    #3276
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Well, one interesting aspect of that case is that there is no mention of a custodial sentence, and moreover, instead of being deported, they were told NOT to leave the country.

    I think we can say their application for asylum can now be considered successfully proven.


    The message goes out to the billions of poverty stricken, uneducated, malcontents in Africa etc... "Come to our country with your backward religion and your barbaric practices. We'll be so appalled that we will tell you to stay."

    12.Even when the parents have been in the country of asylum for some time, a well-founded fear on behalf of the child or because of the parent’s own opposition to FGM can arise upon the birth of a daughter post-flight. The fact that the applicant did not demonstrate this conviction or opinion in the country of origin, nor act upon it, does not itself mean that a fear of persecution is unfounded, as the issue would not necessarily have arisen until then. The birth of a daughter may, in these circumstances, give rise to a sur place claim.37 If it is held that the opposition or fear of FGM is a mere artifice for the purpose of creating grounds for asserting a fear of persecution,a stringent evaluation of the well-foundedness of the fear is warranted. In the event that the claim is found to be self-serving, but the claimant nonetheless has a well-founded fear of persecution, international protection is required.
    Them's the rules.


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    #3277
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,729 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    recedite wrote: »
    The message goes out to the billions of poverty stricken, uneducated, malcontents in Africa etc... "Come to our country with your backward religion and your barbaric practices. We'll be so appalled that we will tell you to stay."

    I didn't realise billions of poverty stricken, uneducated, malcontents in Africa took the Irish Times, I daresay the editor will be chuffed. :rolleyes:


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    #3278
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    recedite wrote: »
    Well, one (.............)d that we will tell you to stay."


    Them's the rules.




    You can really feel the hate and fear in that kind of post.


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    #3279
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    smacl wrote: »
    I didn't realise billions of poverty stricken, uneducated, malcontents in Africa took the Irish Times, I daresay the editor will be chuffed. :rolleyes:
    There is really no need for you to use the sarcasm emoji; your favourite posting style is well known by now.
    Internet, NGO advisors and migrant advice websites.

    Smartphones. These are ubiquitous nowadays, even in Africa.

    Especially in Africa actually, because they rarely have landlines available.


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    #3280
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Odhinn wrote: »
    You can really feel the hate and fear in that kind of post.
    You must have your face very close to the screen.
    Any response to the actual substance of the post?


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    #3281
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    recedite wrote: »
    You must have your face very close to the screen.
    Any response to the actual substance of the post?




    .........to the fear, hate, stereotyping and so on? It's fairly contemptible.


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    #3282
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,729 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    recedite wrote: »
    There is really no need for you to use the sarcasm emoji; your favourite posting style is well known by now.
    Internet, NGO advisors and migrant advice websites.

    Smartphones. These are ubiquitous nowadays, even in Africa.

    Especially in Africa actually, because they rarely have landlines available.

    Not really though. According to the latest Pew report Majorities in sub-Saharan Africa own mobile phones, but smartphone adoption is modest. Your "billions of poverty stricken, uneducated, malcontents" don't rank among them by and large as smart phone ownership in Africa among the poorer and less well educated parts of the population is considerably lower. You may also want to revisit your notion of billions there, given the total population of Africa currently stands at 1.3 billion, with 173 million smart phone users across all of Africa and the Middle East. Hardly ubiquitous by any stretch of the imagination.

    In terms of being critical of posting styles can I suggest you do some sanity checks on the veracity of your own posts prior to hitting the submit button because even a cursory check shows the content to be way off the mark. While I understand the sentiment of never letting the truth interfere with a good story, I'd suggest you've got the wrong audience for that approach here.


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    #3283
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    smacl wrote: »
    Not really though. According to the latest Pew report Majorities in sub-Saharan Africa own mobile phones, but smartphone adoption is modest. Your "billions of poverty stricken, uneducated, malcontents" don't rank among them by and large as smart phone ownership in Africa among the poorer and less well educated parts of the population is considerably lower. You may also want to revisit your notion of billions there, given the total population of Africa currently stands at 1.3 billion, with 173 million smart phone users across all of Africa and the Middle East. Hardly ubiquitous by any stretch of the imagination.

    Not to worry Pew also reports that many could be on their way to Europe.

    The correct figure estimate is for 500m (just in Sub-Saharan Africa) to have mobiles by 2020. Irrelevant anyway, and off topic.

    But worth noting there does seem to be a theme wherby some people here are 1st in to critise the RCC (as they should do where it's due), but have zero comment on any other worldy religion.

    Indeed they get defensive with the very mention of FGM, hmm, why is that an agenda of sorts?


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    #3284
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,729 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Xzavier Loud Steam wrote: »
    Not to worry Pew also reports that many could be on their way to Europe.

    The correct figure estimate is for 500m (just in Sub-Saharan Africa) to have mobiles by 2020. Irrelevant anyway, and off topic.

    Mobile phones and smart phones aren't the same when it comes to consuming media. From memory, and I'd need to dig out a reference, the largest part of mobile phone usage in poorer countries is texting as this is currently the cheapest way to communicate.
    But worth noting there does seem to be a theme wherby some people here are 1st in to critise the RCC (as they should do where it's due), but have zero comment on any other worldy religion.

    Indeed they get defensive with the very mention of FGM, hmm, why is that an agenda of sorts?

    If you're referring to me, perhaps you could point out where I've been defensive at the mention of FGM. FWIW I've also been plenty critical of Islam on this forum but also happen to think that Tommy Robinson and his ilk are a bunch of bigoted tossers. If you're not referring to me above, reply to the poster you are referring to.


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    #3285
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Xzavier Loud Steam wrote: »
    Not to worry Pew also reports that many could be on their way to Europe.

    The correct figure estimate is for 500m (just in Sub-Saharan Africa) to have mobiles by 2020. Irrelevant anyway, and off topic.

    But worth noting there does seem to be a theme wherby some people here are 1st in to critise the RCC (as they should do where it's due), but have zero comment on any other worldy religion.

    Indeed they get defensive with the very mention of FGM, hmm, why is that an agenda of sorts?




    Who, exactly?


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    #3286
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    smacl wrote: »
    I suggest you do some sanity checks on the veracity of your own posts prior to hitting the submit button because even a cursory check shows the content to be way off the mark. While I understand the sentiment of never letting the truth interfere with a good story, I'd suggest you've got the wrong audience for that approach here.
    You might want to check your own posts, and some of the dodgy statistics you keep throwing at us. Your source gives no details, and it does not seem to differentiate between registered owners and users. Yes, people in sub-sahara Africa tend to use texts and mobile internet more than voice calls. That's to save money.

    And they also tend to share phones between multiple users, or between a whole family. So one owner could easily represent 3 users.
    Sub-Saharan Africa's smartphone penetration stands at 33%, significantly higher than the 15% recorded in 2014, and market analysts predict this will double by 2025.
    http://www.itwebafrica.com/mobilex/320-south-africa/244990-sub-saharan-africas-smartphone-penetration-at-33
    smartphone ownership on the continent totals 440 million
    So how does that square with your stats? 173 million users was it?
    I think I'll just go with "ubiquitous".


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    #3287
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,729 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    recedite wrote: »
    You might want to check your own posts, and some of the dodgy statistics you keep throwing at us.

    Sure thing, statistics seem to stack up pretty well.

    475124.JPG

    From statista.com who are described in Wikipedia as follows;
    Statista is an online statistics, market research and business intelligence portal. It provides access to data from market and opinion research institutions, as well as from business organizations and government institutions in English, French, German and Spanish. As one of the world’s most successful statistics databases, the platform consists over 1,500,000 statistics on over 80,000 topics from more than 18,000 sources.

    My source for population of Africa being 1.3 billion is here and is contemporaneous with the mobile phone stat. I've checked it with other stats, but if you feel either of the statistics are in any way 'dodgy' as you put it, I'd be delighted to see your own references that refute them.

    Looking at your reference, it would appear the ITweb article is actually just an editorial on the Pew research article from my previous post. The headline is that "Sub-Saharan Africa's smartphone penetration at 33%" but I don't see that reference or use if the term "smartphone penetration" in the original research. Perhaps you could elucidate?

    Either way, you brought this into the conversation to support your rather outlandish notion, that a trial for FGM in Ireland that did not lead deportation
    would "send the message out to the billions of poverty stricken, uneducated, malcontents in Africa etc... "Come to our country with your backward religion and your barbaric practices. We'll be so appalled that we will tell you to stay." This is clearly specious as those Africans that do have smartphones tend to be educated, employed and not to use their phones to consume this type of media.

    The intent of your argument would seem to be to peddle racist paranoia which I for one amn't buying.


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    #3288
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    smacl wrote: »
    My source for population of Africa being 1.3 billion is here and is contemporaneous with the mobile phone stat. I've checked it with other stats, but if you feel either of the statistics are in any way 'dodgy'..
    There are many more smartphone users in Africa than owners, so if there are 440 million owners, how can there be only 173 million users?
    You tell me. Stats are always open to interpretation. I don't generally use stats to try to prove or disprove a point unless they are very specific.

    Nobody is disputing the 1.3 billion. Your nitpick was that I used the letter "s" in billions. The English language convention is to use "s" when more than 1 is being referred to. Is 1.83 more than 1? You tell me.
    smacl wrote: »
    Either way, you brought this into the conversation to support your rather outlandish notion, that a trial for FGM in Ireland that did not lead deportation would "send the message out to the billions of poverty stricken, uneducated, malcontents in Africa etc... "Come to our country with your backward religion and your barbaric practices. We'll be so appalled that we will tell you to stay."

    I'm glad you have now finished beating about the bush, and have decided to return to the point. Which you almost grasped.
    I pointed out that the family have not only avoided deportation, but they have actually been ordered to stay.

    I also showed you the barmy rules which they can use to show it is "unsafe" for them to return to a region where the culture is to practice FGM, which case is proved precisely because the child was assaulted (by themselves).


    And also you'll note from the article that the woman made sure to announce clearly in the presence of the arresting Garda that it was not actually a full FGM (or words to that effect) which means she is unlikely to ever be convicted for performing an actual FGM.


    And you'll note their address given as "South Dublin" which implicates the notorious weasel-snake Dr Ali Selim of Clonskeagh Mosque in this whole episode.

    smack wrote:
    "Thanks recedite for explaining this whole thing to me, I didn't cop any of it by myself"


    "You're welcome".


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    #3289
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,729 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    recedite wrote: »
    There are many more smartphone users in Africa than owners, so if there are 440 million owners, how can there be only 173 million users?

    Wrong again, there are 440 million mobile phone subscribers, but as per the Pew report most of them are for mobile phones and not smart phones, which are primarily used for texting. Not for checking up on IT articles about FGM convictions as a possible loop-hole to avoid deportation from Ireland, should they ever find themselves here.
    Nobody is disputing the 1.3 billion. Your nitpick was that I used the letter "s" in billions. The English language convention is to use "s" when more than 1 is being referred to. Is 1.83 more than 1? You tell me.

    No, my issue was that you referred the population of Africa as "billions of poverty stricken, uneducated, malcontents in Africa" have previously described them as "generally in the range of "mildly homophobic" to "vehemently homophobic". Your arguments, in my opinion, are racist, ignorant and bigoted and deserve to be pointed out as such.


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    #3290
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,401 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    recedite wrote: »
    I'm glad you have now finished beating about the bush, and have decided to return to the point. Which you almost grasped.
    Any more of this kind of low-level passive aggression and you'll be carded for incivility.


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    #3291
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,729 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    I see Pell got six years at the sentencing earlier and lambasted by the judge during the process. The terms of the appeal have also been set out as follows;
    His legal team is appealing on the grounds that the jury's verdict was unreasonable, that Pell was not arraigned in the presence of the jury panel, and that the defence was prevented from showing the jury a visual presentation - described as similar to a "Pac Man" video game - depicting the movement of priests in the cathedral on the day of the choirboys' abuse.


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    #3292
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,225 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/no-charges-against-casey-despite-his-nieces-claims-he-sexually-abused-her-37946888.html
    There was no outstanding criminal investigation or charges against the late Bishop Eamonn Casey at the time of his death despite claims by his niece that he abused her over a 10-year period, it has been claimed.

    His niece Patricia Donovan gave a lengthy interview to a Sunday newspaper yesterday claiming she had been sexually abused by the late Bishop Casey from the age of five.

    She said she reported this to gardan 2005.

    The allegations were investigated in 2006 but the Director of Public Prosecutions ordered that no charges were to be brought on 13 sample allegations.

    On foot of Ms Donovan's allegations, the Diocese of Arundel and Brighton in the UK, where her uncle was serving as a hospital chaplain, sent him back to Galway diocese.

    In 2005, allegations against the former bishop were reported in the media, but yesterday's interview in the 'Irish Mail on Sunday' was the first time the bishop's niece was named as his accuser.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #3293
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    It appears she wasn't the only one

    Deceased Bishop Eamonn Casey faced at least three allegations of child sexual abuse before he died — with two high court cases being settled.
    One of the women who have accused him was his niece, while another received a settlement under the controversial Residential Institutions Redress Board.

    Ms Donovan, who lives in England, brought her allegations to police in the UK in November 2005, and later to gardai.
    Limerick detectives travelled to the UK to take a statement from her in January 2006, but by August of the same year, the Director of Public Prosecutions directed that no charges be brought on 13 sample allegations.
    But in the course of seeking documentation relating to her case, Ms Donovan received case notes that confirm that Bishop Casey made a Redress board settlement with a woman in 2005.
    https://extra.ie/2019/03/24/news/irish-news/bishop-eamonn-casey-accused-of-rape-of-niece


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    #3294
    eire4
    Registered Users Posts: 6,642 ✭✭✭eire4


    The word evil can be thrown around a bit too easily at times but it certainly is very apt in this case. Casey was a truly evil man and every single person in the church who helped cover up his disgusting crimes is right there with him.


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    #3295
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,729 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    eire4 wrote: »
    The word evil can be thrown around a bit too easily at times but it certainly is very apt in this case. Casey was a truly evil man and every single person in the church who helped cover up his disgusting crimes is right there with him.

    I take your point, but not a huge fan of the word 'evil' as it is ambiguous and subjective. For actions such as Casey's and those who help cover them up I think morally repugnant, corrupt and criminal are more useful terms depending on context.


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    #3296
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,225 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Evil is a handy way of ascribing all-too-human failings to a supposed outside agency or force.

    "The divil made me do it!"

    Or the pope's recent statements on child abuse within the church

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #3297
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Depressing, if unsuprising -


    The Archbishop of Dublin has told of his shock at finding serial paedophile priests are unable to conclusively confirm newly-reported cases of abuse they were involved in because they had so many victims.
    Dr Diarmuid Martin made the disturbing revelation in an RTE documentary detailing how the Vatican came to exert control over almost every aspect of Irish life since the foundation of the State.
    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/priests-abused-so-many-children-they-cant-remember-names-37990081.html


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    #3298
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,225 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Former President Mary McAleese, who has been studying in Rome since leaving office, reveals the astonishing attitude to abused children she still encounters in some parts of the Catholic hierarchy.

    She said: "I've heard it said many times here in Rome by senior churchmen in whose company I have been that 'God chose these men, and the devil works through children'.

    Fcuk sake.
    Despite two decades of horrific scandals, cover-ups and revelations, the documentary concludes that the Church remains embedded in Irish life.

    'Rome v Republic', RTE One, Thursday, 10.15pm.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #3299
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Is that woman still studying Canon Law at the Pontifical Gregorian University?
    She must have failed all her exams or else be taking a lot of time out between modules.
    Its a masochistic sort of life, perpetually studying under the RCC in Rome just so she can whinge and criticise the RCC.


    It would make more sense for her to study as a Buddhist monk in Tibet.
    Mind you, the food, the wine, and the climate does not really compare ;)


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    #3300
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,275 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    recedite wrote: »
    Is that woman still studying Canon Law at the Pontifical Gregorian University?
    She must have failed all her exams or else be taking a lot of time out between modules.
    Its a masochistic sort of life, perpetually studying under the RCC in Rome just so she can whinge and criticise the RCC.


    It would make more sense for her to study as a Buddhist monk in Tibet.
    Mind you, the food, the wine, and the climate does not really compare ;)

    she was studying for a doctorate that she completed last year. How long did it take you to get your doctorate?


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    #3301
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Its 8 years since she retired in 2011, so that makes her a bit of a slow learner. But I suppose she has to spend her €141K state pension on something, so it might as well be on living the high life in the Vatican.
    And I suppose there is no point rushing it, if she is enjoying it.


    I don't have a doctorate, sure I'm only a semi-literate.


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