An Taisce Green Schools

markodaly · 08-04-2019 12:43PM

Panch18 wrote: »

Sorry can you answer the question I asked. Why aren’t the oil producing countries responsible for what they produce whilst the agri producing countries are for what they produce?

Double standards no??

Em, they are.

Carbon taxes on fossil fuels is a reality today. Sure, it's not enough and needs to be more widespread but it does exist in many countries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_tax#/media/File:ETS_and_carbon_tax_world_map.svg

So, now we have put that to bed, why shouldn't the same be done with carbon-heavy foods like beef or dairy?

markodaly · 08-04-2019 12:49PM

Panch18 wrote: »

So how does the airline industry do carbon offsetting?? Growing plants and trees I believe. And tell me this now, what do farmers do, grow plants and trees by definition no??

How much plants and trees do beef and dairy farmers plant and grow.
Worldwide, more vegetation is destroyed and cleared to make way for cattle.

https://www.worldwildlife.org/industries/beef

Please educate yourself before making silly statements.

Livestock farming accounts for twice as much deforestation as the soy, palm oil and timber industries combined. Conservation scientists in South America say that between 1990 and 2005, beef cattle production was the cause of 71 per cent of deforestation on the continent; the figure for other commodity farming, including sugar, rubber, coffee and cocoa, was just 17 per cent.

https://www.meatfreemondays.com/meat-eating-contributes-second-worst-year-rainforest-destruction/

Now if your actual point was about these beef farmers replacing lost tree and vegetation somewhere else, then we can talk.

markodaly · 08-04-2019 12:50PM

Panch18 wrote: »

Also the airline industry “carbon offsetting” is a load of rubbish when in a lot of instances they are claiming credit for planting that would havopen regardless of them

Do you have proof of this claim?

markodaly · 08-04-2019 12:53PM

gozunda wrote: »

I'm not here to hand feed you.

Asks for evidence, non-forthcoming.... wonder why.

that nothing is worse than agriculture which is being highlighted.

Where has this been stated, that there is nothing worse than agriculture?
Again, show me the proof, not the feelzzz.

Suckler · 08-04-2019 12:58PM

markodaly wrote: »

How much plants and trees do beef and dairy farmers plant and grow.
Worldwide, more vegetation is destroyed and cleared to make way for cattle.

https://www.worldwildlife.org/industries/beef

Worldwide how much more vegetation would be destroyed if we were all to move away from meat. The mechanisation and ecological impact from more and more fertilisers being used would be devastating. Not too mention the water requirements as well.

The difficulty is that a lot of land (not just in Ireland) could not produce crops on a sustainable continuous level. Animals can utilise 'poorer' quality land better and return nutrients to the soils as they graze.
Also with the destruction of vegetation comes the destruction of native animals/insects etc. but they aren't as easy/emotive to put on a poster as a 'baby cow'.

markodaly · 08-04-2019 01:03PM

gozunda wrote: »

Wtf have 'caged eggs'(sic) or 'cruelty free' got to do with Climate Actions????

I did say it was opaque and subjective but I suppose it is meant to highlight to people and kids to think about where their food is coming from. The reaction to it, is kinda hilarious in a way. I would have thought farmers would have thicker skins than most, but there ya go.

You believe highlighting misinformation and lack of relevant information aimed at school children is 'overreacting' lol?

Not what I said, the reaction to this, the mobilising and the lobbying by farmer groups against this leaflet, shows to me at least that farmers are very vulnerable and defensive for a reason. Maybe they know long term the game is up for them.

Well you do for certain. Dont like people pointing this out? Why is that?

Awww, are you ok hun?
Some random guy on boards.ie take you to task and it is now 'the whole world is against us'

What are you going to do when the EU impose their will on the problem? No one will be able to save ya then? Better get ready for some harsh medicine during the next decade.

gozunda · 08-04-2019 01:03PM

markodaly wrote: »

Asks for evidence, non-forthcoming.... wonder why.
Where has this been stated, that there is nothing worse than agriculture?Again, show me the proof, not the feelzzz.

Lol. If you are going to engage in obfuscation and pedantry then by all means continue. Dont expect anyone to take you seriously.

Hilariously I note you continue to deliberately misconstrue comments for your own benefit? I'd suggest you reread the one about carbon taxes again cos you've picked up incorrectly as appears to be you habit.

I still smell a big fat hairy rat in all in all of that eitherway. When you wish to actually engage in discussion and not as you put it either on about 'feelzzz' (sic) and be somewhat consistant in your claims then I'm sure you will get a response. For the time being I'd suggest you read the thread as detailed. Dont like that? Well tough...

BarryD2 · 08-04-2019 01:04PM

_Brian wrote: »

But they are public bodies following their mandate, using professionals to get their message across..

gozunda wrote: »

Bord Bia's given remit is to promote high quality locally produced food and support native industries and jobs. Bord Bia employ experts in the area of agriculture, food production and nutrition. And btw that covers all kind of produce whether plant or animal based.

gozunda wrote: »

What's with all the whataboutery? And whatever you believe about the big 'evil' Bord Bia - repeating it does not make it any more believable. I still do not understand what you have against Bord Bia supporting Irish food and producers. I do not see them "undermining their own markets" - where you get that?

This is getting tedious, you & others are happy to praise the marketing and sales talk of the State food agency - using words like 'expert' & 'professional'. Clearly their message suits your thinking whilst the Green Schools advice does not. You can argue that Green Schools advice is not professional but neither is there objectivity in campaigns from An Bord Bia or Dairy Council etc.

They are all points of view and at the end of the day, it's the public consumer that will decide. The measure of this will be that Bord Bia monitor sales trends and market feedback and in time their message will change as well if this trend continues. Because that's their job, to figure out what the market wants and advise the producers.

markodaly · 08-04-2019 01:05PM

Panch18 wrote: »

It seems that tax takes carbon out of the athmosphere

It does actually. If you use that tax to plant trees or other vegetation that is exactly what it does. Its called an offset. Try looking it up.

gozunda · 08-04-2019 01:09PM

BarryD2 wrote: »

This is getting tedious, ...

You are correct it is tedious. That you are somehow qualified to reinterpret what is clearly officially detailed is hilarious and to push you own rather daft comments which ignore what is evidently wrong with that piece of propaganda pushed as an 'Action Pack' (sic). But hey if that floats your boat - we are happy for you

markodaly · 08-04-2019 01:11PM

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Now, compare and contrast, if you will, the rather effusive praise being bestowed on the airline industry in its efforts to mitigate the effects of their release of carbon sequestered for millions of years with the demonisation of livestock farmers in their role in management of carbon that was already part of the carbon cycle and in no way adding to the carbon overload being experienced currently

A rather strange dichotomy, don't you think?

As I said, what is the IFA's plan for carbon taxes or offsetting the release of greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere? They are actively lobbying to prevent anything like this.

Also, to your last point, is that a joke? Do you know how much land is cleared on this earth to make way for new cattle and grazing lands?

Many industries have woken up and appear to be taking this seriously, yet the agriculture industry seems to be dragging its heels.

markodaly · 08-04-2019 01:16PM

gozunda wrote: »

It is a fact that raw soybeans do indeed contain approx twice the amount of calcium found in dairy milk.

Yes, thanks for admitting that I am correct. Soy beans do contain more calcium than milk if calcium is a concern. In other words, there is a ready-made, better alternative for people right there.

I detect a big fat smelly hairy rat in all that tbh ....

Why do you have to play the man, with that comment?

Running out of arguments?

Suckler · 08-04-2019 01:17PM

markodaly wrote: »

...Do you know how much land is cleared on this earth to make way for new cattle and grazing lands?

https://theconversation.com/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-theres-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands-4659

You've said this a number of times but, as I highlighted in my post above and as per the link getting rid of grazing land isn't simply a magic bullet for deforestation/loss of vegetation and leads to other animal deaths on unmanageable scale.

gozunda · 08-04-2019 01:17PM

markodaly wrote: »

As I said, what is the IFA's plan for carbon taxes or offsetting the release of greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere? They are actively lobbying to prevent anything like this.

Also, to your last point, is that a joke? Do you know how much land is cleared on this earth to make way for new cattle and grazing lands?

Many industries have woken up and appear to be taking this seriously, yet the agriculture industry seems to be dragging its heels.

As you seem to know so much about Irish and world agriculture, food production and environmental issues perhaps you could tell us as opposed to vacuous generalisations?

_Brian · 08-04-2019 01:20PM

markodaly wrote: »

As I said, what is the IFA's plan for carbon taxes or offsetting the release of greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere? They are actively lobbying to prevent anything like this.

Also, to your last point, is that a joke? Do you know how much land is cleared on this earth to make way for new cattle and grazing lands?

Many industries have woken up and appear to be taking this seriously, yet the agriculture industry seems to be dragging its heels.

Teagasc have a number of research projects and plans ongoing at present.
Search on their website, nobody here is your personal google.

You reference lands being cleared for grazing cattle. I note you didn’t mention the land being cleared for avocados or palm oil, no it’s suits the addenda better to reference animal farming. On that point I’ve spoken to a TD regarding my personal feelings on this and I feel there should be a European wide boycott of foods coming from South American countries while their share of prime rainforests continues to decline in size, money talks. Same for any country reducing forest for any reason.
Our own protection of bogs is pityful, destroying bogs for energy or farming is inexcusable, shortsighted and should be illegal.

There has been talk of opt in charges for airline passengers to offset carbon footprint of flying, last information I saw less than 10% of passengers were opting to do this so more than 90% choose not to, add to that the airlines not giving the option and you can conclude that only a minuscule number of flights are being offset, it’s not making any difference other than pr and propaganda material.

I think the last issue I have is the actual sub addenda here. If all animal farming was declared carbon neutral in the morning, Vegans and veggies would just keep banging on to have it stopped. - isn’t that the real truth here ??

markodaly · 08-04-2019 01:25PM

Suckler wrote: »

Worldwide how much more vegetation would be destroyed if we were all to move away from meat.

Studies have shown that it could be done, with less impact on the environment than we do now.
It is a big wide-ranging question, I am not sure anyone really knows the full answer to it, but it will definitely head that way.

For example, dairy consumption in the west is falling, and it's likely that will be replicated in Asia, where consumption has skyrocketed. We are at peak dairy I feel.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-10-17/america-is-drowning-in-milk-nobody-wants

With world populations still growing but rate of growth slowing, with environmental awareness growing in Asia and elsewhere, then dairy farming is definitely on the decline. Even beef might be at peak beef as its consumption is also on the decline.

I just think we need to speed up these declines.

gozunda · 08-04-2019 01:25PM

markodaly wrote: »

Yes, thanks for admitting that I am correct. Soy beans do contain more calcium than milk if calcium is a concern. In other words, there is a ready-made, better alternative for people right there.

This ...

markodaly wrote:

Are Irish people even aware that soy is a much better source of Calcium than milk? ...

"Irish people"????

Yet you conflate chewing raw soy beans with drinking real dairy milk lol. So you agree you do engage in "half truths"? Good to know...

markodaly wrote: »

Why do you have to play the man, with that comment?Running out of arguments?

Nope . Incorrect. That is based on your own contradictory comments in this thread. So you're a plant food advocate who eats meat twice a day- 7 days a week? Really???? Dont worry if you outed yourself - you're not the first card carrying lifestyle veganista that has done that.

Dont be afraid to say what your real belief system is - no one here will judge you for it

markodaly · 08-04-2019 01:27PM

gozunda wrote: »

I still smell a big fat hairy rat in all in all of that eitherway. When you wish to actually engage in discussion and not as you put it either on about 'feelzzz' (sic) and be somewhat consistant in your claims then I'm sure you will get a response. For the time being I'd suggest you read the thread as detailed. Dont like that? Well tough...

You are obsessed with the euphemism 'rat'. Freudian slip?

gozunda · 08-04-2019 01:31PM

markodaly wrote: »

Studies have shown that it could be done, with less impact on the environment than we do now.
It is a big wide-ranging question, I am not sure anyone really knows the full answer to it, but it will definitely head that way.
For example, dairy consumption in the west is falling, and it's likely that will be replicated in Asia, where consumption has skyrocketed. We are at peak dairy I feel.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-10-17/america-is-drowning-in-milk-nobody-wants

Again you seem to be wandering around the globe from the west to China and to America and then you come back here and try to bash "Irish people" with whatever detruis you pick up. Could you stick to one or the other thanks.

markodaly wrote: »

With world populations still growing but rate of growth slowing, with environmental awareness growing in Asia and elsewhere, then dairy farming is definitely on the decline. Even beef might be at peak beef as its consumption is also on the decline.

I just think we need to speed up these declines.

I'm sure you do

gozunda · 08-04-2019 01:35PM

markodaly wrote: »

You are obsessed with the euphemism 'rat'. Freudian slip?

No simply reiterating my point that you are making many contradictory claims. Perhaps you could be a bit more consistant in your comments instead?. Thanks.

markodaly · 08-04-2019 01:35PM

gozunda wrote: »

And yet you conflated chewing raw soy beans with drinking real dairy milk lol. So you agree you do engage in "half truths"? Good to know...

Yes, because we all know that you can only get calcium by drinking it. Who knew.

Dont be afraid to say what your real belief system is - no one here will judge you for it

As I already stated, I eat meat all the time, but it's funny that you cannot comprehend a meat eater with a different point of view. It's actually irrelevant to the argument but you seem to take issue with it.

What you want to do is create an 'otherism'.
They 'vegans' want to destroy my way of life. Anyone with 'these' points of view is a vegan, therefore 'you' are a vegan.

Ah, bless, how simple your life must be with this world view.

gozunda · 08-04-2019 01:41PM

markodaly wrote: »

Yes, because we all know that you can only get calcium by drinking it. Who knew.

So you chew raw soy beans? Well good for you.

And yet you deliberatly conflated raw soy beans with milk lol

markodaly wrote: »

As I already stated, I eat meat all the time, but it's funny that you cannot comprehend a meat eater with a different point of view. It's actually irrelevant to the argument but you seem to take issue with it.What you want to do is create an 'otherism'....

Sure you do and you also advocate we should get all our nutrients from plants

oh and non stop generalised bashing of agriculture in your comments? Have I forgotten anything?

markodaly · 08-04-2019 01:42PM

_Brian wrote: »

You reference lands being cleared for grazing cattle. I note you didn’t mention the land being cleared for avocados or palm oil, no it’s suits the addenda better to reference animal farming.

I actually did reference it, in that link I posted, but I guess you didn't read it.

I agree with you in a way, there is an issue regarding plants like palm oil, well-documented issues. There is a big push to make consumers aware of this and try to encourage them to buy products free from palm oil. A very good thing in my opinion.

Yet, the argument is like that.

Something is happening on this earth that is having a negative impact on the environment, be it oil and gas drilling, or clearing lands for palm oil.
When it gets pointed out that beef and dairy farming also has a negative impact people in this forum lose the rag... pointing out all the negative things going on elsewhere first and foremost as some weird way to defend their own patch.

It's like we have to fix everything else first before we can even begin to look at the current methods of beef and dairy farming.

Of course, that just comes across as a childish abdication of responsibilities.

markodaly · 08-04-2019 01:43PM

Suckler wrote: »

https://theconversation.com/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-theres-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands-4659

You've said this a number of times but, as I highlighted in my post above and as per the link getting rid of grazing land isn't simply a magic bullet for deforestation/loss of vegetation and leads to other animal deaths on unmanageable scale.

How about we stop cutting **** down first to create more grazing land.
Maybe we can start there!

Mooooo · 08-04-2019 01:44PM

markodaly wrote: »

How about we stop cutting **** down first to create more grazing land.
Maybe we can start there!

How about buying Irish produce and start there

_Brian · 08-04-2019 01:46PM

markodaly wrote: »

How about we stop cutting **** down first to create more grazing land.
Maybe we can start there!

Supporting Irish farming is the best way to do this.

markodaly · 08-04-2019 01:50PM

gozunda wrote: »

So you chew raw soy beans? Well good for you.

Not sure where you are from, but you can also cook them.
There is this most wonderful invention called a stove.

Sure you do and you also advocate we should get all our nutrients from plants oh and non stop generalised bashing of agriculture in your comments? Have I forgotten anything?

I made my points and it's totally irrelevant to the topic at hand, the only reason you bring it up is to use it as a way to deflect from the myriad of points I have raised.

_Brian · 08-04-2019 01:53PM

markodaly wrote: »

I actually did reference it, in that link I posted, but I guess you didn't read it.

I agree with you in a way, there is an issue regarding plants like palm oil, well-documented issues. There is a big push to make consumers aware of this and try to encourage them to buy products free from palm oil. A very good thing in my opinion.

Yet, the argument is like that.

Something is happening on this earth that is having a negative impact on the environment, be it oil and gas drilling, or clearing lands for palm oil.
When it gets pointed out that beef and dairy farming also has a negative impact people in this forum lose the rag... pointing out all the negative things going on elsewhere first and foremost as some weird way to defend their own patch.

It's like we have to fix everything else first before we can even begin to look at the current methods of beef and dairy farming.

Of course, that just comes across as a childish abdication of responsibilities.

What’s childish is people posting jere with their hidden addenda and not being honest. As is the usually vegan approach emissions are being used in this argument against animal farming when we all know that is not the actual drive behind the conversation.

VandV want an end to animal farming to satisfy their emotional discomfort with the practice. They are happy to burden food miles and suffer the associated damage to the environment to satisfy their emotional discomfort.

Not admitting that really shines a light on their propaganda policies.

At least as an omnivore and a farmer I will happily say I’ve no interest in ending farming and consumption of animals. I beleive it can be done better than some of the current practices but in itself it’s an ethical and nutritious source of food for a growing population.

markodaly · 08-04-2019 01:54PM

_Brian wrote: »

Supporting Irish farming is the best way to do this.

No, the best we can do is reduce our intake of beef and dairy.
Next best would be to buy only from sustainable producers who have independently verified carbon offset programmes

The worst course of action is, of course, to buy cheap Brazilian beef. Irish farmers come above that for sure, but that is like winning the prize of the thinnest kid at fat camp.

gozunda · 08-04-2019 02:00PM

markodaly wrote: »

Not sure where you are from, but you can also cook them.
There is this most wonderful invention called a stove.

Yeah like you didnt conflate and had detailed that? Of course. :rolleyes:

markodaly wrote: »

I made my points and it's totally irrelevant to the topic at hand, the only reason you bring it up is to use it as a way to deflect from the myriad of points I have raised.

Nope. Incorrect. The point is many of your 'points' are both disingenuous and contradictory at best imo. I'm sorry if you do not like that these were highlighted - because that's what the discussion is.

An Taisce Green Schools

Comments