An Taisce Green Schools

Gawddawggonnit · 07-04-2019 06:49AM

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Great for you in France, Dawg, different climate and soils here on the edge of Europe. At best, we're marginal for growing Maize, Sorghum and Millet and prone to having difficult harvesting conditions every 5 or 6 years(and that might be optimistic) with the commensurate difficulties in ensiling and preservation that ensure from that. We don't have long periods of settled, predictable weather that you're blessed with.

As has been said here before, we can grow just about anything in Ireland. We just have difficulty in harvesting it.

Out of curiosity, have you any figures and links to the improvement in capture and storage of carbon in soils from those alternative crops?

Edit: And some links to soils with a maritime climate would be great for clarity instead of continental climate figures.

Old ground.
We went through this during the height of the fodder crisis last year...

Teagasc, the Irish agri research institute, should be researching this but are completely taken up with ‘proving’ that nitrogen, (etc) are good for the environment, biodiversity etc.

There’s a bunch of about 50 farmers in Ireland doing this research through trials etc, without any state or Teagasc funding whatsoever!

Have a read, or even join up and get involved...be surprised what you’d learn.

https://www.baseireland.ie/

Tilikum17 · 07-04-2019 06:50AM

emaherx wrote: »

You do know that people can eat beef and beans right? You'd think reading this thread that people eat nothing but beef, I actually don't know anyone who eats beef on a daily basis and certainly no one who would consider beef a staple of their diet. Of coarse a healthy diet involves lots of plants we are omnivores.

Exactly. So why are the farmers so up in arms when people are asked to reduce it a small bit?

evolving_doors · 07-04-2019 07:14AM

gozunda wrote: »

Read the link - it has average figures given by enterprise type. I presumed you were referring to Irish conditions and not US figures or wherever which are usually bandied about ...

Yes thanks that's it.

Someone mentioned earlier that some of the Irish land type was not optimal for producing vegetables and it was more productive for grass/beef etc.
Given the amount of water available for beef I think it should be possible to grow more kg of veg even if it's done hydroponically!

What price does the average farmer get for a kg of beef (net profit )?

emaherx · 07-04-2019 07:15AM

Tilikum17 wrote: »

Exactly. So why are the farmers so up in arms when people are asked to reduce it a small bit?

I'm sure many people need to cut down on their red meat and sugar and salt all which can be part of a healthy diet in the right proportions. The issue is the constant deamonising of the beef sector as being the major contributor to global warming.

dmakc · 07-04-2019 07:32AM

Tilikum17 wrote: »

So why are the farmers so up in arms when people are asked to reduce it a small bit?

Well with this current issue it's beef and dairy. It's explicitly promoting veganism and "cruelty-free" by implying the children have failed a task if they don't take it up. All from a group that historically have an axe to grind with agri and no license to advocate what we should and shouldn't eat.

gozunda · 07-04-2019 08:32AM

evolving_doors wrote: »

Yes thanks that's it. Someone mentioned earlier that some of the Irish land type was not optimal for producing vegetables and it was more productive for grass/beef etc.
Given the amount of water available for beef I think it should be possible to grow more kg of veg even if it's done hydroponically!
What price does the average farmer get for a kg of beef (net profit )?

If you are going down the hydroponic route - you dont need agricultural land. You can do so on brownfield sites or multi story buildings in the city. However growing such crops hydroponically will require huge energy inputs in the form of mechanical pumps, artificial fertilisers and lighting. Not exactly an environmentally friendly or energy efficient method of production tbh. In the present world economy - vegetables can be grown in suitable regions of the world more efficiently and with fewer inputs using conventional means and then exported to other countries. Much the same as livestock and dairy farming in Ireland.

Btw by comparison your idea for hydroponics provides no logic for not rearing cattle extensively other than some people may chose to campaign because they dont like meat and insist on telling others what they should or shouldn't eat.

I can recommend the teagasc website for further details of Irish agriculture, average production figures and costs etc.

_Brian · 07-04-2019 09:08AM

gozunda wrote: »

If you are going down the hydroponic route - you dont need agricultural land. You can do so on brownfield sites or multi story buildings in the city. However growing such crops hydroponically will require huge energy inputs in the form of mechanical pumps, artificial fertilisers and lighting. Not exactly an environmentally friendly or energy efficient method of production tbh. In the present world economy - vegetables can be grown in suitable regions of the world more efficiently and with fewer inputs using conventional means and then exported to other countries. Much the same as livestock and dairy farming in Ireland.

Btw by comparison your idea for hydroponics provides no logic for not rearing cattle extensively other than some people may chose to campaign because they dont like meat and insist on telling others what they should or shouldn't eat.

I can recommend the teagasc website for further details of Irish agriculture, average production figures and costs etc.

Remember when in conversation with vegans it’s not about making sense, what’s best for people or what is best for the environment.
The end game is to end animal farming no matter what other compromises need to be made.

It makes it very difficult to do.

Balf · 07-04-2019 09:12AM

emaherx wrote: »

You do know that people can eat beef and beans right? You'd think reading this thread that people eat nothing but beef, I actually don't know anyone who eats beef on a daily basis and certainly no one who would consider beef a staple of their diet. Of coarse a healthy diet involves lots of plants we are omnivores.

Tbh, its more that you'd read the thread and think Irish farmers could produce nothing but beef.

In any event, isn't Brexit going to provoke change? Regardless of what Irish children are advised to eat, the destination of half our beef exports may be vanishing. With no obvious alternative.

I suspect IFA's defensiveness is a subliminal cry for help.

Dakota Dan · 07-04-2019 09:24AM

Panch18 wrote: »

And another thing - which is vitally important

the "science" behind the interaction that methane has with the environment is sketchy to say the very least. In fact some eminent climate change scientists are coming out and saying it is just plain WRONG. And in case you think I am making this up why don't the doubters check out the most recent work of Professor Myles Allen (head of climate change at Oxford's Physic's department no less)

To give you a sample of where the MISTAKE is made in climate change science here is a direct quote:

“We don’t actually need to give up eating meat to stabilise global temperatures,” says Professor Myles Allen who led the study (meat production is a major source of methane). “We just need to stop increasing our collective meat consumption. But we do need to give up dumping CO2 into the atmosphere. Every tonne of CO2 emitted is equivalent to a permanent increase in the methane emission rate. Climate policies could be designed to reflect this.”

“Under current policies, industries that produce methane are managed as though that methane has a permanently worsening effect on the climate,” says Professor Frame. “But this is not the case. Implementing a policy that better reflects the actual impact of different pollutants on global temperatures would give agriculture a fair and reasonable way to manage their emissions and reduce their impact on the environment.”

And the main greenhouse gas is water vapour but they can't blame or tax anyone for that.

emaherx · 07-04-2019 09:36AM

Balf wrote: »

Tbh, its more that you'd read the thread and think Irish farmers could produce nothing but beef.

In any event, isn't Brexit going to provoke change? Regardless of what Irish children are advised to eat, the destination of half our beef exports may be vanishing. With no obvious alternative.

I suspect IFA's defensiveness is a subliminal cry for help.

Well it's an ideal place to produce beef and we do it well, what do you suggest we produce? Cotton? Bananas? Rice? Soy?

Should we not export produce?

Balf · 07-04-2019 09:46AM

emaherx wrote: »

Well it's an ideal place to produce beef and we do it well, what do you suggest we produce? Cotton? Bananas? Rice? Soy?

So the choice is between beef and pineapples? I'd no idea our choices were so limited.

Look, I agree that realism about our mediocre agricultural potential is better than the "feed 40 million" nonsense. But it can be overdone, too.

I think it would be most helpful if I just left with that thought.

emaherx · 07-04-2019 10:04AM

Balf wrote: »

So the choice is between beef and pineapples? I'd no idea our choices were so limited.

Look, I agree that realism about our mediocre agricultural potential is better than the "feed 40 million" nonsense. But it can be overdone, too.

I think it would be most helpful if I just left with that thought.

But our choices are fairly limited. Seriously though what would you like to see Ireland grow instead of Beef. Certainly if we only ate what grew well here we would have a fairly limited diet.

Most of the grain grown here makes poor quality flour for instance, sure it will make bread that's edible but won't compete with imported flour. Thankfully we have a few other uses for our grain.

auspicious · 07-04-2019 11:38AM

gozunda wrote: »

Exactly what has a crop (pinto beans) which is Native to Mexico and grows best in warm and / or subtropical regions, which is not tolerant of frost or waterlogged conditions got to do with rearing beef cattle in Ireland based on extensive grassland production?

Are you seriously suggesting that we give up the efficient use of Irish grasslands, sit on our collective fat rear ends, and instead purchase pinto beans or similar from South America where I'm fairly sure even more ecologically fragile lands can be pushed into service to feed these types of stupid uninformed food fads? We may also ignore the massive carbon footprint of flying the necessary quantities of these beans around the world to replace Irish produced beef.

Ignoring the above biased comparison - Meat including beef as part of a balanced diet is recognised as a healthy source of protein

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/foods/beef

But hey lets not let reality get in the way of the usual rubbish presented in these discussions....

Let's all just eat pinto beans - yum.

Of course pinto beans were used as an example.
Many people don't realise beans nutritional content.
Since this thread is about An Taisce, here's what they say.
My last post in this thread. Fin.

https://www.teagasc.ie/crops/crops/break-crops/beans/

gozunda · 07-04-2019 12:02PM

Balf wrote: »

Tbh, its more that you'd read the thread and think Irish farmers could produce nothing but beef.

In any event, isn't Brexit going to provoke change? Regardless of what Irish children are advised to eat, the destination of half our beef exports may be vanishing. With no obvious alternative.

I suspect IFA's defensiveness is a subliminal cry for help.

The whole beef thing was first brought up by another poster who seemed to be on the main highway to meat bashing central. A number of posters have been (successfully imo) refuting a lot of the rubbish being thrown at farming here.

Yes we produce high quality beef. We also have an Important dairy sector. And then there are smaller but important sectors for horticultural produce etc. It remains our ability to produce food is limited by our climate, topography and soil types. That is little different from other countries. We try to do the best with what we have. However for some reason none of that seems to suit those who wish to tell the rest of us what we should or shouldn't produce or eat. No one knows quite what Brexit will bring. And yes there will always be change.

Possibly even some vegans belligerence about this issue - is as you put it 'a subliminal cry for help' but then that would be justing throwing stupid jibes tbh.

gozunda · 07-04-2019 12:14PM

auspicious wrote: »

Of course pinto beans were used as an example.
Many people don't realise beans nutritional content.
Since this thread is about An Taisce, here's what they say.
My last post in this thread. Fin.

https://www.teagasc.ie/crops/crops/break-crops/beans/

Seriously? So why not use an example of a legume which does grow in this country instead of making daft comparisons about how much better eating pinto beans is supposed to be compared to 'beef'?

And I'd suggest you read that teagasc article - it's about growing non food grade crops suitable as animal feed. But hey nothing like being lectured by 'experts'in beans :rolleyes:

markodaly · 07-04-2019 02:10PM

emaherx wrote: »

I'm sure many people need to cut down on their red meat and sugar and salt all which can be part of a healthy diet in the right proportions. The issue is the constant deamonising of the beef sector as being the major contributor to global warming.

But they are.

If your feelings get hurt, well too bad, but it is beyond a shadow of a doubt that the beef industry, worldwide, is a major contributor to global warming.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding-meat-and-dairy-is-single-biggest-way-to-reduce-your-impact-on-earth

Avoiding meat and dairy products is the single biggest way to reduce your environmental impact on the planet, according to the scientists behind the most comprehensive analysis to date of the damage farming does to the planet.

The new research shows that without meat and dairy consumption, global farmland use could be reduced by more than 75% – an area equivalent to the US, China, European Union and Australia combined – and still feed the world. Loss of wild areas to agriculture is the leading cause of the current mass extinction of wildlife.

The new analysis shows that while meat and dairy provide just 18% of calories and 37% of protein, it uses the vast majority – 83% – of farmland and produces 60% of agriculture’s greenhouse gas emissions. Other recent research shows 86% of all land mammals are now livestock or humans. The scientists also found that even the very lowest impact meat and dairy products still cause much more environmental harm than the least sustainable vegetable and cereal growing.

NSAman · 07-04-2019 02:31PM

emaherx wrote: »

Mostly from grass..... I find grass much harder to digest.

It’s easier if you inhale!

emaherx · 07-04-2019 02:52PM

markodaly wrote: »

But they are.

If your feelings get hurt, well too bad, but it is beyond a shadow of a doubt that the beef industry, worldwide, is a major contributor to global warming.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding-meat-and-dairy-is-single-biggest-way-to-reduce-your-impact-on-earth

My feelings are not hurt. Bit of a childish argument to even mention them

I said not "the" major contributor to Global Warming not "a" major contributor. The effects of animal agriculture have been shown to be greatly over exaggerated. And turning to an all plant diet will increase the greenhouse gas emissions from plant based agriculture making the net saving much lower than claimed.

https://www.sciencealert.com/sorry-but-giving-up-on-meat-is-not-going-to-save-the-planet

It's insane that people actually believe cow farts/burps are worse for the environment than burning fossil fuels. And how come growing plants like Willow for fuel are considered carbon neutral but farming gets 0 credit for carbon sequestered?

Harry Palmr · 07-04-2019 03:00PM

The move against (red) meat and dairy might turn out to be a fad in historical terms but it might also be part of history like the ending of slavery or keeping wives in the kitchen - something that is going to become embedded and a future generation wondering why it took so long to change. Whatever it is the retail market will react to it and the beef barons will either adapt or die out in whole or part. Where that leaves individual farmers is something for them to consider.

emaherx · 07-04-2019 03:06PM

The scientists also found that even the very lowest impact meat and dairy products still cause much more environmental harm than the least sustainable vegetable and cereal growing.

Their study is obviously not that comprehensive if they missed the impact of growing rice!

https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2668/nasa-led-study-solves-a-methane-puzzle/

Should also be noted that NASA don't even mention cattle in Methane level increase and they have no vested interest in beef or any other type of farming or any sort of diets, they simply measure the Methane levels and observe where they come from. However many of the linked to research showing how bad cattle are have been funded by vegan groups and even a few vegan billionaires including one with a large interest in a certain impossible meat company.

Panch18 · 07-04-2019 03:16PM

I can’t wait for flight free Monday and car free Tuesdays to come in around the world

It’s lucky that these 2 small measures will directly lead to a large reduction in greenhouse gas emissions worldwide

Harry Palmr · 07-04-2019 03:29PM

London are basically banning diesel vehicles from central London by imposing some big charges, the anti carbon movement is happening in many and various ways. There will be winners and losers. Farmers need to make sure they are not caught holding the baby.

https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2019/04/central-london-ulez-ultra-low-emissions-zone-car-congestion-charge/586561/

Panch18 · 07-04-2019 03:42PM

Harry Palmr wrote: »

London are basically banning diesel vehicles from central London by imposing some big charges, the anti carbon movement is happening in many and various ways. There will be winners and losers. Farmers need to make sure they are not caught holding the baby.

https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2019/04/central-london-ulez-ultra-low-emissions-zone-car-congestion-charge/586561/

10 years ago the Irish government were giving reduced road tax on diesel cars because they are more environmentally friendly than petrol cars and better for the atmosphere, so the science said

It’s amazing how quickly things can change!!

emaherx · 07-04-2019 03:48PM

Panch18 wrote: »

10 years ago the Irish government were giving reduced road tax on diesel cars because they are more environmentally friendly than petrol cars and better for the atmosphere, so the science said

It’s amazing how quickly things can change!!

Ironically that was the green party who passed for that. It was pretty ridiculous at the time too, sure they produced less CO2 but the other particulates were known to be fairly harmful back then.

Panch18 · 07-04-2019 03:51PM

emaherx wrote: »

Ironically that was the green party who passed for that. It was pretty ridiculous at the time too, sure they produced less CO2 but the other particulates were known to be fairly harmful back then.

Oh pure madness

But it just shows that propaganda can be spread and decisions taken based on either looking at things incorrectly or just downright stupidity, or not willing to listen to a different viewpoint.

gozunda · 07-04-2019 05:41PM

Harry Palmr wrote: »

The move against (red) meat and dairy might turn out to be a fad in historical terms but it might also be part of history like the ending of slavery or keeping wives in the kitchen - something that is going to become embedded and a future generation wondering why it took so long to change. Whatever it is the retail market will react to it and the beef barons will either adapt or die out in whole or part. Where that leaves individual farmers is something for them to consider.

Or more likley it will get laughed out of the classroom for a constant use of childish logic and rampant amounts of misinformation .

Dakota Dan · 07-04-2019 06:56PM

markodaly wrote: »

But they are.

If your feelings get hurt, well too bad, but it is beyond a shadow of a doubt that the beef industry, worldwide, is a major contributor to global warming.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding-meat-and-dairy-is-single-biggest-way-to-reduce-your-impact-on-earth

Do you know what the main greenhouse gas is?

Buford T. Justice XIX · 07-04-2019 07:22PM

Just on methane emissions...

Livestock account for 51% of methane emissions. That's just over half....

Why aren't the rest of the emitters brought into the conversation as well, I wonder?

Incidentally, livestock emissions are compensated for by the methane coming from carbon dioxide absorbed by grass and other crops and that methane again breaking down over its half life of 12 years into carbon dioxide and water. Unlike the other sources, which are being ignored?

Buford T. Justice XIX · 07-04-2019 07:29PM

Panch18 wrote: »

I can’t wait for flight free Monday and car free Tuesdays to come in around the world

It’s lucky that these 2 small measures will directly lead to a large reduction in greenhouse gas emissions worldwide

Well, we're not supposed to mention the CO2 at their highest level in millions of years due to fossil fuel use because it's much easier to ride around on high horses giving out about farmers while ignoring their own energy usage.

https://www.ecowatch.com/nasa-study-methane-spike-2526089909.html

Obviously farmers have infiltrated both NASA and the green movement:rolleyes:

Harry Palmr · 07-04-2019 07:35PM

Farmers may need to start thinking of meat like tobacco - initially they laughed, they disputed the science and they talked about freedom to choose but bit by bit smoking became a minority pastime as the decades ticked by.

Obviously there are massive differences between the cattle and tobacco (I have a hard time imagining any Irish government imposing 1 euro taxes on a kilo of meat every year!) but in the end a movement took hold and if you lose one generation you've lost the future. The first "meat free" parents will raise meat free children.

Don't assume nothing will change.

An Taisce Green Schools

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