Kinda Curious Teckie Q?

Wtf ? · 05-04-2019 02:45PM #1

Shoot me to pieces on this if you want, Its the curious me speaking.
Just say, You had a 12v car battery powering a 12v motor, connected by belts to an alternator or 2 recharging the battery powering the motor. Would you not get free power forever ? Is perpetual motion a myth ?
Thanks

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 05-04-2019 02:47PM

A fair bit of energy will be lost in the process of inducing movement of the various belts for a start.

Skylinehead · 05-04-2019 02:47PM

Wtf ? wrote: »

Shoot me to pieces on this if you want, Its the curious me speaking.
Just say, You had a 12v car battery powering a 12v motor, connected by belts to an alternator or 2 recharging the battery powering the motor. Would you not get free power forever ? Is perpetual motion a myth ?
Thanks

Breaks the first law of thermodynamics, energy cannot be created or destroyed. You'd lose some energy to heat, kinetic energy dissipates through the belts etc as well. Eventually you'd run out.

Oh, and the second law too.

McMurphy · 05-04-2019 02:48PM

If cats always land on their feet, and toast always lands butter side down, what would happen if you duct taped some hot buttered toast to a cats back and threw it out of a skyscraper window?

Skylinehead · 05-04-2019 02:49PM

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

If cats always land on their feet, and toast always lands butter side down, what would happen if you duct taped some hot buttered toast to a cats back and threw it out of a skyscraper window?

Sure that's how maglev works.

05-04-2019 02:52PM

I guess that even in a hypothetical world where you could have zero energy loss, you'd just have a rotating motor that couldn't be used for anything except powering itself.

uch · 05-04-2019 02:54PM

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

If cats always land on their feet, and toast always lands butter side down, what would happen if you duct taped some hot buttered toast to a cats back and threw it out of a skyscraper window?

That reminds me of this

ohnonotgmail · 05-04-2019 02:54PM

Wtf ? · 05-04-2019 02:54PM

Battery could be 2 or alternator could be 4 to compensate for lost power then ?

seamus · 05-04-2019 02:55PM

Energy cannot be created nor destroyed, it merely changes form.

Moving the motor and the belts creates friction, which creates heat. That's your electrical energy being converted to another energy form and being lost.

Even if you could construct a perfect system, with no energy loss, what would be the point? It would be a curio, but nothing more. Imagine pouring water from one glass into another, and then back again, over and over. Not very exciting.

"Free power", "Free energy" refers to a system where you get more energy out than you put in. Even if your system self-recharged itself with 100% efficiency, if you tried to "take" some of that power, you're removing energy from the system. The battery won't fully charge itself, it will charge itself as much as it can, minus what you've taken out. Eventually you will have taken all the power out, and your battery is dead.

To use the water example, you can keep pouring it from one glass to another and back again. But if you take a drink every time, you will eventually have none left.

05-04-2019 02:58PM

seamus wrote: »

Energy cannot be created nor destroyed, it merely changes form.

Moving the motor and the belts creates friction, which creates heat. That's your electrical energy being converted to another energy form and being lost.

Even if you could construct a perfect system, with no energy loss, what would be the point? It would be a curio, but nothing more. Imagine pouring water from one glass into another, and then back again, over and over. Not very exciting.

"Free power", "Free energy" refers to a system where you get more energy out than you put in. Even if your system self-recharged itself with 100% efficiency, if you tried to "take" some of that power, you're removing energy from the system. The battery won't fully charge itself, it will charge itself as much as it can, minus what you've taken out. Eventually you will have taken all the power out, and your battery is dead.

To use the water example, you can keep pouring it from one glass to another and back again. But if you take a drink every time, you will eventually have none left.

Take your water example out in the sun. The water will eventually disappear by itself from evaporation.

That's might be a more relatable analogy of the energy loss occuring.

Wtf ? · 05-04-2019 02:58PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I guess that even in a hypothetical world where you could have zero energy loss, you'd just have a rotating motor that couldn't be used for anything except powering itself.

But scaled up could the rotation power something else ? Think of the waterwheel for example

Wtf ? · 05-04-2019 03:02PM

seamus wrote: »

Energy cannot be created nor destroyed, it merely changes form.

Moving the motor and the belts creates friction, which creates heat. That's your electrical energy being converted to another energy form and being lost.

Even if you could construct a perfect system, with no energy loss, what would be the point? It would be a curio, but nothing more. Imagine pouring water from one glass into another, and then back again, over and over. Not very exciting.

"Free power", "Free energy" refers to a system where you get more energy out than you put in. Even if your system self-recharged itself with 100% efficiency, if you tried to "take" some of that power, you're removing energy from the system. The battery won't fully charge itself, it will charge itself as much as it can, minus what you've taken out. Eventually you will have taken all the power out, and your battery is dead.

To use the water example, you can keep pouring it from one glass to another and back again. But if you take a drink every time, you will eventually have none left.

It's all folly so then ? Ok, I just wanted to know, Thanks for your clear reply !

05-04-2019 03:04PM

Wtf ? wrote: »

But scaled up could the rotation power something else ? Think of the waterwheel for example

No, scaling does nothing.

And waterwheels have a constant source of incoming external energy.

Skylinehead · 05-04-2019 03:05PM

Wtf ? wrote: »

But scaled up could the rotation power something else ? Think of the waterwheel for example

Scaled up is exactly the same situation, but more of it.

maxwell smart · 05-04-2019 03:06PM

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

If cats always land on their feet, and toast always lands butter side down, what would happen if you duct taped some hot buttered toast to a cats back and threw it out of a skyscraper window?

That's more a Shelbyville idea....

bnt · 05-04-2019 03:13PM

Once source of energy loss would be the belt heating up a bit, which means that heat energy has been lost to the atmosphere.

Here's a related thought experiment: imagine that you had a spinning shaft, suspended in a magnetic field so it doesn't contact anything. It's sealed in a vacuum, so no air friction. Let's say you're removed all possible sources of friction, so wouldn't it spin forever? Maybe it could. OK, but then you can't do anything with it, can you? It would just sit there, spinning forever. You can't power anything from it, since that would mean extracting energy from it.

For example, if it had a spinning magnet on one end, and then you added a coil outside the container attached to a shaft. You would then have a generator - but in the process you would be extracting kinetic energy from the spinning shaft, and it would slow down. Maybe you could feed that energy back in ... but you would lose some in the process. In short: there is no free lunch.

05-04-2019 03:20PM

Basically, the person who breaks the laws of physics and creates this will be the richest man the world has ever known.

Fusion is as good as it gets if we ever make it that far. That would change everything.

Pherekydes · 05-04-2019 04:21PM

Wtf ? wrote: »

Shoot me to pieces on this if you want, Its the curious me speaking.
Just say, You had a 12v car battery powering a 12v motor, connected by belts to an alternator or 2 recharging the battery powering the motor. Would you not get free power forever ? Is perpetual motion a myth ?
Thanks

WTF?

mloc123 · 05-04-2019 04:22PM

Wtf ? wrote: »

Shoot me to pieces on this if you want, Its the curious me speaking.
Just say, You had a 12v car battery powering a 12v motor, connected by belts to an alternator or 2 recharging the battery powering the motor. Would you not get free power forever ? Is perpetual motion a myth ?
Thanks

Friction and heat...

Kilboor · 05-04-2019 04:23PM

The elite are all about transcendence and living forever and the secrets of the universe and they want to know all this, some are good some are bad some are a mix; but the good ones don't ever want to organize, the bad ones tend to want to organize because they lust after power. Powerful consciousnesses don't want to dominate other people, they want to empower them so they don't tend to get together until things are really late in the game, then they come together and evil is always defeated. Because good is so much stronger. And we're on this planet and Einstein's physics showed it, Max Planck's physics showed it- there's at least twelve dimensions. And now that's all the top scientists and billionaires are coming out and saying it's a false hologram, it is artificial, the computers are scanning it and finding tension points where it's artificially projected and gravity is bleeding in to this universe. That's what they call dark matter. So we're like a thought or a dream that's a wisp in a computer program, some God's mind, whatever. They're proving it all, it's all coming out.

Now, there's like this subtransmission zone below the third dimension that's just turned over to the most horrible things, it's what it resonates to, and it's trying to get up into the third dimension; that's just a basic level consciousnesses, to launch up into the next levels. Our species is already way up at the fifth, sixth dimension consciously, our best people. But there's this big war trying to basically destroy humanity because humanity has free will and there's a decision to which level we want to go to. We have free will so evil is allowed to come in and contend and not just good. And the elites themselves believe they're racing using human technology to try to take our best minds and build some type of breakaway civilization where they're going to merge with machines, transcend and breakaway from the failed species that is Man. Which is kind of like a false transmission because they're thinking what they are is ugly and bad; projecting it onto themselves instead of believing no, it's a human test about building us up.

And so Google was set up 18, 19 years ago so that they wanted to build a giant artificial system. And Google believes the first artificial intelligence will be a supercomputer based on the neuron activities of the hive mind of humanity, with billions of people wired into it with the internet of things, and so all of our thoughts go into it and we're actually building a computer with real neurons in real-time that's also psychically connected to us that are organic creatures so that they will have current prediction powers, future prediction powers- a true crystal ball- but the big secret is once you have a crystal ball and know the future you can add stimuli beforehand and make decisions and control the future. And so then it's the end of consciousness and free will for individuals as we know and a true 2.0 in a very bad way hive mind consciousness with an AI jacked into everyone knowing our hopes and dreams, delivering it to us not in some P.KD. wirehead system where we plug in and give up on consciousness because of unlimited pleasure but because we were already wired in and absorbed before we knew it by giving over our consciousness to this system by our daily decisions that it was able to manipulate and control into a larger system.

Wtf ? · 05-04-2019 04:23PM

Pherekydes wrote: »

WTF?

Too late with your witty retort, The knowledge bit is done, Sorry ?

Ipso · 05-04-2019 04:24PM

Trying to kick start Steorn again?

Ipso · 05-04-2019 04:25PM

Kilboor wrote: »

The elite are all about transcendence and living forever and the secrets of the universe and they want to know all this, some are good some are bad some are a mix; but the good ones don't ever want to organize, the bad ones tend to want to organize because they lust after power. Powerful consciousnesses don't want to dominate other people, they want to empower them so they don't tend to get together until things are really late in the game, then they come together and evil is always defeated. Because good is so much stronger. And we're on this planet and Einstein's physics showed it, Max Planck's physics showed it- there's at least twelve dimensions. And now that's all the top scientists and billionaires are coming out and saying it's a false hologram, it is artificial, the computers are scanning it and finding tension points where it's artificially projected and gravity is bleeding in to this universe. That's what they call dark matter. So we're like a thought or a dream that's a wisp in a computer program, some God's mind, whatever. They're proving it all, it's all coming out.

Now, there's like this subtransmission zone below the third dimension that's just turned over to the most horrible things, it's what it resonates to, and it's trying to get up into the third dimension; that's just a basic level consciousnesses, to launch up into the next levels. Our species is already way up at the fifth, sixth dimension consciously, our best people. But there's this big war trying to basically destroy humanity because humanity has free will and there's a decision to which level we want to go to. We have free will so evil is allowed to come in and contend and not just good. And the elites themselves believe they're racing using human technology to try to take our best minds and build some type of breakaway civilization where they're going to merge with machines, transcend and breakaway from the failed species that is Man. Which is kind of like a false transmission because they're thinking what they are is ugly and bad; projecting it onto themselves instead of believing no, it's a human test about building us up.

And so Google was set up 18, 19 years ago so that they wanted to build a giant artificial system. And Google believes the first artificial intelligence will be a supercomputer based on the neuron activities of the hive mind of humanity, with billions of people wired into it with the internet of things, and so all of our thoughts go into it and we're actually building a computer with real neurons in real-time that's also psychically connected to us that are organic creatures so that they will have current prediction powers, future prediction powers- a true crystal ball- but the big secret is once you have a crystal ball and know the future you can add stimuli beforehand and make decisions and control the future. And so then it's the end of consciousness and free will for individuals as we know and a true 2.0 in a very bad way hive mind consciousness with an AI jacked into everyone knowing our hopes and dreams, delivering it to us not in some P.KD. wirehead system where we plug in and give up on consciousness because of unlimited pleasure but because we were already wired in and absorbed before we knew it by giving over our consciousness to this system by our daily decisions that it was able to manipulate and control into a larger system.

Can I come?

Skylinehead · 05-04-2019 05:12PM

Ipso wrote: »

Can I come?

Pythagorean · 05-04-2019 10:38PM

mloc123 wrote: »

Friction and heat...

You might like to try the following experiment ; with your car engine running at tickover speed, turn the headlights on. The engine revs should drop,because of the increased load on the battery, which in turn means the alternator has to put out more power, resulting in more magnetic drag, thereby causing the engine revs to drop, as there is no increase in the throttle opening to compensate for this.

HappyAsLarE · 05-04-2019 10:42PM

Physics basics should be a mandatory subject for junior/leaving cert.

I don’t understand how one can live without knowing the most fundamental laws of nature.

Your Face · 05-04-2019 11:00PM

HappyAsLarE wrote: »

Physics basics should be a mandatory subject for junior/leaving cert.

I don’t understand how one can live without knowing the most fundamental laws of nature.

Yet, there you are.

The Rape of Lucretia · 06-04-2019 12:01AM

seamus wrote: »

Energy cannot be created nor destroyed, it merely changes form.

Moving the motor and the belts creates friction, which creates heat. That's your electrical energy being converted to another energy form and being lost.

Even if you could construct a perfect system, with no energy loss, what would be the point? It would be a curio, but nothing more. Imagine pouring water from one glass into another, and then back again, over and over. Not very exciting.

"Free power", "Free energy" refers to a system where you get more energy out than you put in. Even if your system self-recharged itself with 100% efficiency, if you tried to "take" some of that power, you're removing energy from the system. The battery won't fully charge itself, it will charge itself as much as it can, minus what you've taken out. Eventually you will have taken all the power out, and your battery is dead.

To use the water example, you can keep pouring it from one glass to another and back again. But if you take a drink every time, you will eventually have none left.

This whole post fails in the first statement.
So energy cannot be created ? Yeh. Right. So there is no energy then. Yeeeeeeeh. Well, clearly energy exists, and you concede it can change form. So it was created. So your first statement is nonsense and you disprove it yourself.

Teddy Daniels · 06-04-2019 12:14AM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

This whole post fails in the first statement.
So energy cannot be created ? Yeh. Right. So there is no energy then. Yeeeeeeeh. Well, clearly energy exists, and you concede it can change form. So it was created. So your first statement is nonsense and you disprove it yourself.

Oh my god, you're right the first law of thermodynamics is incorrect.
Please note its a law not a theory so it is absolute.

ignoring the much later special theory of relativity it seems unlikely that you are unaware that the potential chemical energy contained in petrol is the energy source for a petrol fueled ice. in this system the chemical energy in the fuel is changed in form to heat sound light and most importantly kinetic forms.

06-04-2019 06:11AM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

This whole post fails in the first statement.
So energy cannot be created ? Yeh. Right. So there is no energy then. Yeeeeeeeh. Well, clearly energy exists, and you concede it can change form. So it was created. So your first statement is nonsense and you disprove it yourself.

Should the wording be changed to "Energy cannot be created or destroyed, except in a Big Bang"? Cause if you want to go that route, I imagine a lot of things would have to be changed so as to not confuse those of limited ability.

Kinda Curious Teckie Q?

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