School patronage

expectationlost · 22-11-2018 11:05PM

well known from TV, anatomist Alice Roberts as president of the Humanist society is fronting a campaign to end state funding of faith schools in the UK and is being attacked because she sends her kids to the local church of england school as she explains

Like many non-religious parents, I had no choice - within the state system - but to send my children to a faith school. That’s the point.

https://twitter.com/theAliceRoberts/status/1064100334753193985 https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/stop-funding-faith-says-bbc-presenter-with-children-at-church-school-08xx2r7g2 a familiar tale

Hotblack Desiato · 24-11-2018 12:07AM

I hadn't heard about this but happened across the link. Scummy behaviour but it's likely that this sort of thing happens all the time.

https://extra.ie/2017/11/05/news/irish-news/nun-blocks-unmarried-mothers-promotion

A catholic nun intervened to block the leading candidate from securing the deputy principal position at a school, because the candidate had a baby outside of marriage.

It has also emerged that an interview panel at a second school run by the Catholic education trust Ceist allegedly downgraded the scores of the most eligible candidate because he was a Protestant.

As a result, the male teacher was pushed down the ranks from first place to third position and failed to get the job.

The extraordinary claims – both of which relate to incidents within the past six years – have been made by a whistleblower in an explosive protective disclosure which the Department of Education is investigating.

Hotblack Desiato · 07-12-2018 01:39AM

It's a complete and utter disgrace that what the school is attempting to do with its admission policy is legal.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/archdeacon-banned-from-taking-part-in-services-over-comments-on-school-admissions-row-1.3720202

Archdeacon banned from taking part in services over comments on school-admissions row

A retired Church of Ireland archdeacon has been barred from taking part in church services by the Archbishop of Dublin for six months after speaking out over a school admissions row.

Archdeacon Edgar Swann warned earlier this year that the Church of Ireland community was being “torn apart” due to controversy over school enrolment policies at a school in Greystones, Co Wicklow, which prioritised children who regularly attend church services.

His intervention followed the resignation of a long-serving principal, Eileen Jackson, at St Patrick’s National School in protest over its “parish engagement” enrolment policy.

...

In a letter written to the Archbishop earlier this year, Archdeacon Swann said the enrolment controversy was bringing the church into “public ridicule” and called for the school board to be dissolved.

“I have no wish to interfere in the internal matters of my old parish and school, but I find I can be silent no longer,” he wrote.

“The matter is damaging the school, which has lost excellent teachers, and it is causing a serious crisis in the parish,” he stated.

Parents at the school overwhelmingly backed a no confidence vote in its board of management earlier this year.

evolving_doors · 07-12-2018 01:49PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It's a complete and utter disgrace that what the school is attempting to do with its admission policy is legal.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/archdeacon-banned-from-taking-part-in-services-over-comments-on-school-admissions-row-1.3720202

Will this ever come to a conclusion?

Aaaand soo it con-tin-ues both da-ay and night.

Hotblack Desiato · 08-12-2018 03:54AM

Your professional colleagues need to develop some backbone, because the present system which abuses kids cannot continue without your explicit or implicit consent.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but that's the way it is. You can be part of the problem or part of the solution.

EdgeCase · 08-12-2018 11:55AM

I've always thought that a huge part of the problem is how teachers, more at primary level, are educated. They've historically been utterly beholden to the religious communities even though they're paid for by the state to provide a public service.

The average Irish primary teacher went to a religious primary school, a religious secondary school, a religious teacher training college and then taught in a religious school, having to climb through layers of church bureaucracy and toe the line to ensure permanency and promotion.

They've put up with having to hide their personal lives eg a marital breakdown and divorce, being LGBT, not going to church services due to not being all that religious etc etc. and having employers that for decades had huge exemption from normal employment protections.

What did their unions do about this? Nothing. Why? Because the teachers were living in a bubble where these things are normal. If you haven't experienced a mainstream employment environment or academic environment, why would you think any of this stuff is strange or unusual?

The Bishop Basher · 08-12-2018 12:52PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It's a complete and utter disgrace that what the school is attempting to do with its admission policy is legal.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/archdeacon-banned-from-taking-part-in-services-over-comments-on-school-admissions-row-1.3720202

I'm not religious at all but having come from a minority faith i always felt there was a case to make for minority faith based schools.

Unfortunately I'm close to ground zero on this particular issue and what i've witnessed over the last number of months is beyond sickening.

To see members of the clergy abuse their position by threatening, intimidating and bullying parents, teachers, parishioners and now fellow clergy has left me with no option but to come to the view that religion no longer has any place in schools.

It's too open to abuse by those who wish to abuse it and there are no checks in place to stop the abuse when it happens..

If you want any background to this sinister saga and just how corrupt small elements of the CoI have become,

Have a look here

Then go check out the BoM for Temple Carrig School Greystones.

Join the dots and you'll have a glimpse into the abyss..

evolving_doors · 08-12-2018 03:36PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Your professional colleagues need to develop some backbone, because the present system which abuses kids cannot continue without your explicit or implicit consent.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but that's the way it is. You can be part of the problem or part of the solution.

That's like telling a cat he needs to become a dog now! I find the vast majority are quite ok with it, as that's the way they've been brought through the system... and if you don't like that then you can always choose elsewhere to learn or teach.

smacl · 08-12-2018 04:14PM

evolving_doors wrote: »

That's like telling a cat he needs to become a dog now! I find the vast majority are quite ok with it, as that's the way they've been brought through the system... and if you don't like that then you can always choose elsewhere to learn or teach.

By elsewhere, I'm guessing you mean emigrating, as the vast majority of schools and posts in this country are still religious ethos. I had a friend who managed to get a post in an educate together, but apparently the number of new posts is relatively small and the competition tough.

Hotblack Desiato · 08-12-2018 05:58PM

evolving_doors wrote: »

That's like telling a cat he needs to become a dog now! I find the vast majority are quite ok with it, as that's the way they've been brought through the system... and if you don't like that then you can always choose elsewhere to learn or teach.

Wow what a cop out.

Teachers are paid by the state to deliver education, not be the lackeys of a church.

Pathetic. :mad:

evolving_doors · 08-12-2018 06:53PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Wow what a cop out.

Teachers are paid by the state to deliver education, not be the lackeys of a church.

Pathetic. :mad:

Jeez relax you'd swear I pi55ed in your cornflakes or something.

Hotblack Desiato · 08-12-2018 09:48PM

It's not you, it's your profession collectively pissing in my cornflakes (so as to speak) and happily working away in a system that treats my kids as second class citizens.

We were at an open day for an ET secondary a few weeks back, we're just slightly out of its catchment area. New school building, great facilities, enthusiastic and motivated staff and an excellent principal who took time to speak with us personally at the end. We probably won't get in

(NB: that's just due to demand and kids from the ETs in its catchment having priority, which is fair enough I suppose, but there's no ETs where we live and the only secondary options are single-sex RC.)

Hotblack Desiato · 08-12-2018 09:52PM

Sorry but the old "if you don't like that then go elsewhere or homeschool" is a really sore point on this forum. It's nowhere near good enough. I'm a parent, not an educator. I want educators and their bosses to treat me and my kids the same as anyone else and not try to indoctrinate them. It's not a lot to ask.

robindch · 16-01-2019 12:21PM

Did this story show up? Seems the government is considering changing the law on sex education in schools:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/government-to-consider-changing-law-on-sex-education-1.3738154

Irish Times wrote:

The Department of Education is set to consider whether the law should be changed to ensure schools under religious control cannot use their ethos as a barrier to teach children objective sex education. The move comes on foot of a report by the Oireachtas education committee into the quality of sex education at primary and secondary school. The report also proposes that the curriculum – which is almost 20 years old – should be updated and delivered to students from an earlier age.

There have been long-standing concerns that students in some schools under religious patronage are receiving sex education from groups which are opposed to contraception, abortion or homosexuality. A draft of the report, due to be published soon, states that under the Education Act (1998), schools are permitted to promote the moral, social, and personal development of students and provide health education for them, having regard to the “characteristic spirit of the school.” The committee report, however, states that the State advisory body on the curriculum has no legal power over how the curriculum is delivered by school patron bodies with their own religious ethos.

As a result, the committee has recommended that clarity is given by the Department of Education regarding how schools and colleges under religious patronage should implement a comprehensive sex education programme that treats all children equally. The committee also recommends that the Education Act 1998 be reviewed so that “ethos can no longer be used as a barrier to the effective teaching of the RSE (Relationships and Sexuality Education) and SPHE (Social Personal and Health Education) curriculum.

Other recommendations contained in the report include:

* Ensuring that RSE and SPHE be taught at primary level at in “an age and developmentally appropriate manner”;

* Updating the 20-year old curriculum to give consideration to the “significant and welcome changes” that have taken place in Ireland in order to produce a gender equality-based, inclusive, holistic, creative, empowering and protective curriculum;

* Examining the possibility of handing over responsibility for the oversight of delivery to the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment or a similar body so the programme is delivered in an effective and consistent manner;

* Ensuring outside providers of sex education be regulated by the State authorities to ensure consistency and accuracy of information provided to students.

* Including sexual consent as an integral and fundamental part of all discussions on and reforms of SPHE and RSE;

* Ensuring any legislative amendments required to remove the role of ethos as a barrier to the objective and factual delivery of sex education be made as soon as possible and at the latest by the end of 2019.

The Department of Education has not commented on the findings, but is set to consider the key recommendations once it is formally published.

In a foreword to the report, Fianna Fáil TD and committee chair Fiona O’Loughlin writes that the committee feels the curriculum needs updating in many areas and “is no longer reflective of society today”. She says improvements are required to give our young people the skills they need, particularly in the areas of consent and contraception. “The committee believes strongly that the SPHE and RSE curriculum needs to be inclusive of all students and to give a voice to LGBTQ+ students and those with special intellectual needs who are often overlooked in this area,” she writes.

Hotblack Desiato · 02-04-2019 01:39PM

Scaremongering ahoy!

Predictable that the usual vested interests would obstruct any attempts at divestment.

Removing school’s Catholic ethos would be ‘Brexit-type disaster’, parents told

However, parents who are being invited to vote on whether to divest their school patronage this month have received letters and social media messages warning them of the consequences changing the ethos of their schools.

In the case of St Oliver Plunkett’s School in Malahide, the parents’ association warned that the loss of the school’s religious ethos could lead to the cancellation of nativity plays and carol services, and would impact on the “spirit, culture and even the name of the school”.

It also warned that initiatives such as the school’s garden fete; Healthy Eating; the Junior Entrepreneur Project and Book Buzz, a school reading programme, might not be facilitated under a new patron.

The message calls on parents to attend meetings to voice their concerns and warns of the dangers of a narrow vote in favour of divestment.

“To avoid another Brexit-type disaster, we implore you to attend the meeting. This is your opportunity to raise your questions/concerns,” parents were told, in messages seen by The Irish Times .

A separate letter from the school’s board of management states that staff and the board are “100 per cent” in favour of remaining and warned that a change in patronage would have “huge implications”.

“A change in patronage would mean that First Penance, First Holy Communion and Confirmation would no longer be the responsibility of the school. Therefore, should you wish your child to receive the Sacraments, all preparation would take place outside of school hours and at a cost to parents, ” the letter states.

,,,

Other Catholic schools in the areas have also issued similar warning that a change in patron could mean an end to the celebration of religious days and sacraments. Some of the letters from individual schools carry identical language.

Opposition to divestment has prompted anger from some parents, who are in favour of greater choice, and say there is a co-ordinated campaign to halt divestment.

One local parent, who declined to be named, said schools have presented the opportunity to vote as “an assault on all that is good about the school community”.

“They have conducted a campaign to incite fear, uncertainty and doubt among parents, making claims that switching to an unknown patron would result in the removal of book clubs, garden fetes, and Christmas celebrations...

“Allowing schools this much control over the process means that it will be almost impossible for change to happen.”

NB the proposal is to divest only ONE of the eight catholic primary schools in the area.

evolving_doors · 02-04-2019 08:11PM

That's an interesting one.
Has there ever been a situation where a school had been divested from Catholic patron over to Educate Together ... with the same staff remaining on?

expectationlost · 02-04-2019 09:02PM

is there a copy of these letters floating around? https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/dia-dhuit-easter-celebrations-and-nativity-plays-could-all-be-scrapped-catholic-schools-warn-37974150.html

http://stmarnocks.scoilnet.ie/blog/about/board-of-management/

Board of Management
Committee Members
2016– 2020
Ciaran McCormack – Chairperson

David Tuite

John Hughes

Elizabeth Crilly

Sinéad Trimble

Niamh McCarthy

Laura Phillips

Neil McKeever

its the National party speaker Ciaran McCormack i presume... http://scoiland.ie/fuinn-about-us/an-bord-bainistiochta-the-board-of-management/

Pól Ó Cathasaigh – Cathaoirleach/ Ionadaí an Phatrúin
Nóirín Ní Laighin – Príomhoide
Íde Nic Gearailt – Ionadaí na Múinteoirí
Colm Ó Raghallaigh – Ionadaí an Phatrúin
Sinéad Uí Uilliam – Ionadaí na dTuismitheoirí / Cisteoir
Oilibhéar Mac Conchoille– Ionadaí na dTuismitheoirí
Dónall Mac Diarmada – Ionadaí an Phobail
Máire Mhic Aogáin – Ionadaí an Phobail

abdication of responsibility of the bishops to manage this better...

patsman07 · 02-04-2019 10:25PM

One of the letters is at the bottom of this article:

https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2019/0402/1040149-school-patronage/

Disgraceful that the BOM of these schools are lying so blatantly. With the exception of the sacraments everything else in that school could stay the exact same under Educate Together. And even the sacraments are done in most if not all Educate Together schools albeit after the school day. Need somebody like the Referendum Commission to publish a neutral leaflet about divestment for these situations.

Peregrinus · 03-04-2019 02:26AM

evolving_doors wrote: »

That's an interesting one.
Has there ever been a situation where a school had been divested from Catholic patron over to Educate Together ... with the same staff remaining on?

I would imagine that would be the normal model of divestment.

Framing a model which involves majorly pissing off not only a signficant section of the parents who chose the school because they had a preference for its denominational affililation but also the entire teaching staff, who can be fired and replaced if the divestment proceeds, is pretty much framing a model which is guaranteed to fail.

Nor is the there any reason for this. Educate Together would have no objection to employing staff with a religious commitment - far from it; they are an inclusive movement. So from their point of view a transfer of patronage to them would not be an occasion for discharging any of the staff. A teacher who had a preference for working in a denominational school might choose to resign, or at least choose to look for other jobs and resign upon finding one, but that would be up to them.

magicbastarder · 03-04-2019 08:32AM

patsman07 wrote: »

One of the letters is at the bottom of this article:

they're talking about this on morning ireland - and have referred to another letter full of dramatic language, included lots of exclamation marks, and mentioned a claim that the safety of children on school will be compromised on school tours.
the religious correspondent got a sly (if it was deliberate) 'it's a bit of a leap to suggest that children will be in greater danger because the catholic church are no longer in charge of them' comment in.

Beechwoodspark · 03-04-2019 08:46AM

Just from listening to morning Ireland it seems the parents have already shot down any change of patronage in the school and if anything they are more determined than ever to keep it catholic ethos

Peregrinus · 03-04-2019 09:00AM

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Just from listening to morning Ireland it seems the parents have already shot down any change of patronage in the school and if anything they are more determined than ever to keep it catholic ethos

Well, the parents committee is not necessarily representative of the views of the parents as a whole. It's the people who are interested and activist who tend to end up on these volunteer committees, and they may hold, um, stronger or more passionate views that the general run of parents.

But, yeah, this is going to be an issue quite frequently. Surveys suggest that a majority of parents do in fact prefer schools to have a denominational affiliation, and in most denominational schools that affiliation is likely to be something supported by a majority of the parents. Obviously, parents who perfer a Catholic school are absurdly over-catered for in the current Irish system, and parents who want an ET-type school are under-catered for, which is why there need to be patronage transfers. But in most schools that might be transferred you're quite likely to find that the transfer is not something that is necessarily popular with majority of parents. Which means you need to think about strategies for bringing people on board, securing their asset if not their active support, etc.

Ironically, massively over-hyped scare campaigns like this could be useful, since if those who favour the transfer play this right they can make themselves look like models of sweet, conciliatory reason and calm, reassuring rationality by comparison. So I think the strategic response is not this is an outrage, this is a savage campaign by puppets of the bishops, these are sinister lies, etc, etc. That attitude might or might not be justified, but it's unlikely to be helpful. A better response might be dear me, no, this is all a terrible misunderstanding, we are committed to inclusivity and respect, we wouldn't dream of making any of our schools a religion-free zone, all are welcome and all traditions are studied and celebrated, etc etc.

The point is that advocates of patronage transfer will mostly have a bit of work to do to win hearts and minds, since in most cases it's not going to be a generally popular move within the school. So it's not attack-your-enemies time; it's make-new-friends time.

gaius c · 03-04-2019 09:13AM

Third school at it.
https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/0403/1040323-school_patronage/?fbclid=IwAR1730PpQ9GdfL1U3_cnXv69Mv3dAzlXalNh8lLOkICCoJzNLhd9ntjnBrk

If existing schools will obstruct to this level, then they'll have no choice but to build more schools, all of which will be divested.

Beechwoodspark · 03-04-2019 09:19AM

gaius c wrote: »

Third school at it.
https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/0403/1040323-school_patronage/?fbclid=IwAR1730PpQ9GdfL1U3_cnXv69Mv3dAzlXalNh8lLOkICCoJzNLhd9ntjnBrk

If existing schools will obstruct to this level, then they'll have no choice but to build more schools, all of which will be divested.

Ppl seem to want little or nothing to do with divestment in practice.

recedite · 03-04-2019 10:18AM

Its the same old story that we have been discussing here for years.
And the answer is still the same...

recedite wrote: »

The basic problem is this; "no particular school has a majority in favour of a change in patronage" (this according to Quinn, and he should know)

Lets say there were 3 local schools, and each was under RCC control, and each had a two thirds majority who like it that way. That leaves a lot of disgruntled people.

The obvious solution is to divest one school. Pretty soon everyone will gravitate towards their preferred type of school, and then everyone will be happy in their own niche.

For a short time though, you have a two thirds majority in that one school campaigning against the change.
And a few local TD's who are quite happy to be seen in the media "helping out" if they think there might be a few votes in it for themselves.

As people keep saying, there is a real lack of leadership, from both the Minister and the Archbishop..

expectationlost · 03-04-2019 10:21AM

recedite wrote: »

Its the same old story that we have been discussing here for years.
And the answer is still the same...

The basic problem is this; "no particular school has a majority in favour of a change in patronage" (this according to Quinn, and he should know)

Lets say there were 3 local schools, and each was under RCC control, and each had a two thirds majority who like it that way. That leaves a lot of disgruntled people.

The obvious solution is to divest one school.

which one? some people are attached to each,

seamus · 03-04-2019 10:21AM

gaius c wrote: »

Third school at it.
https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/0403/1040323-school_patronage/?fbclid=IwAR1730PpQ9GdfL1U3_cnXv69Mv3dAzlXalNh8lLOkICCoJzNLhd9ntjnBrk

If existing schools will obstruct to this level, then they'll have no choice but to build more schools, all of which will be divested.

These very much sound like scaremongering letters written by very religious principals; priests or others with a strong interest in keeping the catholic thing going.

If I see this nonsense appear from my child's school, I won't be slow to respond calling them out on their bullsh1t.

recedite · 03-04-2019 10:59AM

expectationlost wrote: »

which one? some people are attached to each,

Flip a coin.

tretorn · 03-04-2019 11:37AM

The liberal anti catholic agenda is being pushed so much by the media that its exaggerating demand for non religious schools.

This is the result when individual schools are identified and then the reality dawns, the link between school, parish and GAA club is gone and thats not what parents want at all, seems the school staff dont want it either, maybe its a cosy set up between school management and the local clergy, who knows what the real opposition is.

I laughed when outraged Mum was interviewed this morning, her girl is making her communion soon and if the school divested she was going to have to tell her six year old son he wouldnt be making his, the drama of it!!!!!!!. He can make his communion any sunday he likes actually, it just wont be happening on school grounds.

There is going to be huge opposition no matter which schools are chosen, parents would have chosen the RC school above the ET and the RC school feeds into probsbly the best secondary school which may be single sex RC too.

Many of the “new Irish” are very religious and they choose RC schools in the absence of their own ethos. The Muslims want single sex schools so they choise RC schools too. The Muslims when they are numerous enough will build their own schools and you can whistle if you think white Irish children are going to get a place there.

Peregrinus · 03-04-2019 11:37AM

recedite wrote: »

Flip a coin.

You have a three-sided coin?

School patronage

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