Yellow-box junction with a white "right-turn box" preceding it

Marcusm · 01-04-2019 10:28AM

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Leaving aside whether it is right or wrong, how is it 'downright dangerous'. Did you miss the bit about 'if safe to do so'.

How can he know or judge the safety of it? A person is signalling to turn right. The road immediately in front of him is empty and he is waiting for the traffic to clear in the opposite direction when suddenly a car pulls into that space from a direction from which he should not come. If you cannot see how that might cause alarm or necessitate an emergency stop (if the motorist moved simultaneously with the miscreant) then you are being disingenuous.

Alanstrainor · 01-04-2019 10:46AM

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

no I think it is unnecessary to stop. As a car drives over, the coil senses the change in the electro- magnetic field and this will trigger the light. If a car sits stationary they will be no extra change, only the change as it arrives and leaves.

My beef with the box is its position. It should be in the junction. There can not be exceptions to the general rule that right turning cars proceed into the junction and await a clearance. (If they can not clear it immediately)

In my experience this is not always correct. Just to state the obvious, the idea is that if a car is in the box, then there is at least one car waiting to turn at the junction and thus the filter light must turn on to clear the junction. However, I've found that in some junctions if you pass the sensor then the assumption is that you have cleared the junction and the filter does not turn on.

These discussions are always interesting, because the junction is awfully designed. If it was standard the turning box would be much further forward...

You know what, I've just found out how this has happened. A good feature of google street view is that you can rewind time and look at sections of road from the past. You can go back as far as 2009 in this case, where there was no turning box, but the junction was otherwise the same. I would have to presume that this junction was causing problems with right turning cars getting stuck in the middle of the yellow box when waiting to turn. And the turning box was put in later.

So I would still contest that you should wait in the box until it is safe to turn.

J_R · 01-04-2019 10:57AM

Dravokivich wrote: »

There's too many bespoke junctions to make such a simple argument. When driving, opinions should be left outside. We should all be driving to a simple set of expectations. Pushing yourself about and interfering with others, is not the way to go about it. Then to endorse it, through instruction? Come on..

Hi,

I do not understand, what opinion ?

I merely taught the correct proper safe method to turn right at a traffic light controlled junction. Which was to move into the junction, if possible, position the front of the car level with the centre of the road that they were turning into, then sit and wait for a clear opportunity

Adding a proviso or two. For example some junctions are a bit skewed so ensure the oncoming traffic have a clear line when taking up your waiting position.

More or less following the RoTR

If you wish to turn right at a set of traffic lights that has an arrow to the right
(or white rectangular box with white arrow), drive into the junction when you
see a green light. Take care not to block any oncoming traffic. Then, when it is
safe, finish your turn. You should only wait for the filter arrow for turning right
when you are in the junction and if it would be dangerous to finish your turn
before the filter light appears.

The advantages of positioning yourself with the front of the car level with the white line

1. You have now reduced the amount of time to the absolute minimum to clear the junction, therefore can safely avail of say a 50% smaller gap than if you remained out of the junction.
2. If there are no traffic lights, by positioning with the front of the car level with the white line you have blocked any car from attempting to dash out from the road you are turning into. Therefore you only have to worry about oncoming traffic.

J_R · 01-04-2019 11:11AM

Alanstrainor wrote: »

In my experience this is not always correct. Just to state the obvious, the idea is that if a car is in the box, then there is at least one car waiting to turn at the junction and thus the filter light must turn on to clear the junction. However, I've found that in some junctions if you pass the sensor then the assumption is that you have cleared the junction and the filter does not turn on.

These discussions are always interesting, because the junction is awfully designed. If it was standard the turning box would be much further forward...

You know what, I've just found out how this has happened. A good feature of google street view is that you can rewind time and look at sections of road from the past. You can go back as far as 2009 in this case, where there was no turning box, but the junction was otherwise the same. I would have to presume that this junction was causing problems with right turning cars getting stuck in the middle of the yellow box when waiting to turn. And the turning box was put in later.

So I would still contest that you should wait in the box until it is safe to turn.

Hi,

I also used Google. To read about the traffic light sensor. I assumed just one method. That is a continuous current would flow through the coils, any vehicle driving through that field would trigger the lights. If it stopped on the square, the magnetic flux would remain constant, hence no trigger.

But thanks to Google see that another method used is to send timed pulses through the coils. Therefore if a vehicle is stationary it will give a different reading than when box was vacant.

However I would assume that the pulses would be timed fast enough to "catch" a car as it drove across. Next time you are stopped on a box and the green filter light is not activated, move slightly.

In the USA the first method used was a large rubber pad. Driving on it compressed the air in the pad and activated the lights.

Only drawback, if you drove an import like a VW Beetle you had to wait for an american car to arrive as the VW was not heavy enough to compress the rubber

J_R · 01-04-2019 11:53AM

Alanstrainor wrote: »

In my experience this is not always correct. Just to state the obvious, the idea is that if a car is in the box, then there is at least one car waiting to turn at the junction and thus the filter light must turn on to clear the junction. However, I've found that in some junctions if you pass the sensor then the assumption is that you have cleared the junction and the filter does not turn on.

These discussions are always interesting, because the junction is awfully designed. If it was standard the turning box would be much further forward...

You know what, I've just found out how this has happened. A good feature of google street view is that you can rewind time and look at sections of road from the past. You can go back as far as 2009 in this case, where there was no turning box, but the junction was otherwise the same. I would have to presume that this junction was causing problems with right turning cars getting stuck in the middle of the yellow box when waiting to turn. And the turning box was put in later.

So I would still contest that you should wait in the box until it is safe to turn.

Hi,
Then a simple solution would have been to increase the timing of the filter light.

Would be very interesting to watch a live street camera view of that junction.

Alanstrainor · 01-04-2019 12:35PM

J_R wrote: »

Hi,
Then a simple solution would have been to increase the timing of the filter light.

Would be very interesting to watch a live street camera view of that junction.

Ah, but simple solutions aren't always what the council wants!

zepman · 01-04-2019 11:25PM

I passed my test this morning. Had taken the day off work, so I decided to go to the NDLS to submit the application for the full licence in the afternoon.

After getting off the bus (yeah, still on a learner permit until I receive the full licence

), I noticed the following (street view here).

Again, white boxes and a yellow box together. Looking at this junction, I don't think the white boxes are for U-turns.

J_R · 02-04-2019 01:13AM

zepman wrote: »

I passed my test this morning. Had taken the day off work, so I decided to go to the NDLS to submit the application for the full licence in the afternoon.

After getting off the bus (yeah, still on a learner permit until I receive the full licence ), I noticed the following (street view here).

Again, white boxes and a yellow box together. Looking at this junction, I don't think the white boxes are for U-turns.

Hi,
Congratulations on passing. Seems that the Dublin engineer in charge of road markings should be given a copy of the RoTR. with paragraph saying that You may the enter the yellow box if turning right highlighted in Yellow

J_R · 02-04-2019 01:41AM

Marcusm wrote: »

How can he know or judge the safety of it? A person is signalling to turn right. The road immediately in front of him is empty and he is waiting for the traffic to clear in the opposite direction when suddenly a car pulls into that space from a direction from which he should not come. If you cannot see how that might cause alarm or necessitate an emergency stop (if the motorist moved simultaneously with the miscreant) then you are being disingenuous.

Hi,

It would not take a very competent driver to safely overtake a stationary car and pull in a few car lengths ahead. He would of course be anticipating that the stationary car may take the hint and decide to move into the correct position for turning right. And being the competent safe polite driver that he is he would slow even further and drop in behind the other car. No problem whatsoever. Emergency stop :eek:

GrumpyMe · 02-04-2019 09:26AM

J_R wrote: »

Hi,
Congratulations on passing. Seems that the Dublin engineer in charge of road markings should be given a copy of the RoTR. with paragraph saying that You may the enter the yellow box if turning right highlighted in Yellow

The engineer may just return it to you with the paragraph below highlighted

GrumpyMe wrote: »

As per RotR -
A turning box...
This shows where to position a vehicle if you want to take a right turn. Do not proceed into the box through a red light.
If oncoming traffic means you cannot take a right turn immediately, you must wait in the box until you can safely take the turn.
(It uses must and must not to draw attention to behaviour the law clearly demands or forbids.)

Dravokivich · 02-04-2019 10:07AM

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

It would not take a very competent driver to safely overtake a stationary car and pull in a few car lengths ahead. He would of course be anticipating that the stationary car may take the hint and decide to move into the correct position for turning right. And being the competent safe polite driver that he is he would slow even further and drop in behind the other car. No problem whatsoever. Emergency stop :eek:

If you were to do that, at either of the 2 junctions shown, you'd have overshot the mark, you claim the hinderance should be in.

osarusan · 02-04-2019 10:27AM

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

It would not take a very competent driver to safely overtake a stationary car and pull in a few car lengths ahead. He would of course be anticipating that the stationary car may take the hint and decide to move into the correct position for turning right. And being the competent safe polite driver that he is he would slow even further and drop in behind the other car. No problem whatsoever. Emergency stop :eek:

Imagine there is a car waiting in the white box for the road to clear so they could turn right (or else for the filter light to come on).

And imagine there is a driver of another car who also wanted to turn right and decided to pass on the left before moving over to the right and coming to a stop in the yellow box.

And finally, imagine that the driver of the car waiting in the white box was to spot a gap in traffic and move forward at the same time as the car behind decided to pass on the left and move over to the right, and they have side-to-side scrape.

Where do you think the fault would lie?

FishOnABike · 02-04-2019 11:00AM

osarusan wrote: »

Imagine there is a car waiting in the white box for the road to clear so they could turn right (or else for the filter light to come on).

And imagine there is a driver of another car who also wanted to turn right and decided to pass on the left before moving over to the right and coming to a stop in the yellow box.

And finally, imagine that the driver of the car waiting in the white box was to spot a gap in traffic and move forward at the same time as the car behind decided to pass on the left and move over to the right, and they have side-to-side scrape.

Where do you think the fault would lie?

The vehicle that changed lane when it was unsafe to do so.

Dravokivich · 02-04-2019 01:34PM

FishOnABike wrote: »

The vehicle that changed lane when it was unsafe to do so.

They are both changing lanes, while unsafe for both of them to do so.

osarusan · 02-04-2019 02:31PM

Dravokivich wrote: »

They are both changing lanes, while unsafe for both of them to do so.

I think that's debatable to be honest. Perhaps you could argue that the driver in the white box should be considering the possibility of somebody overtaking on the left before pulling over to the right in front of them, but I think the bulk of the fault, or maybe all of it, would lie with the car which was overtaking on the left and then pulling over to the right.

Dravokivich · 02-04-2019 03:32PM

I was challenging FishOnABike's rather simple response. Both are wrong in the scenario for the same reason as their comment. How more wrong one is, over the other and why, is a different matter.

J_R · 03-04-2019 05:31AM

GrumpyMe wrote: »

The engineer may just return it to you with the paragraph below highlighted

Originally Posted by GrumpyMe View Post
As per RotR -
A turning box...
This shows where to position a vehicle if you want to take a right turn. Do not proceed into the box through a red light.
If oncoming traffic means you cannot take a right turn immediately, you must wait in the box until you can safely take the turn.
(It uses must and must not to draw attention to behaviour the law clearly demands or forbids.)

Hi,
So ?. And I would request an explanation from the engineer as to why he painted the box in that position, it is contrary to the teaching of the RSA which is

If you wish to turn right at a set of traffic lights that has an arrow to the right
(or white rectangular box with white arrow), drive into the junction when you see a green light. Take care not to block any oncoming traffic. Then, when it is safe, finish your turn. You should only wait for the filter arrow for turning right when you are in the junction and if it would be dangerous to finish your turn
before the filter light appears.

These yellow and turning boxes are completely superfluous and a total waste of money. Money that could be better spent on say repairing pot holes.

The only instructions a driver requires to safely turn right at a light controlled crossing is

1. On green, Drive through if clear, and
2. Again on green, If being blocked by oncoming traffic to drive in as far as possible. Ideal spot to stop is just short of your turning point. However taking care not to block any other traffic that has a green light. And that is it, no boxes necessary, yellow, green, blue whatever. Just very basic common sense and it is applicable to all junctions.

Some countries do not go to the expense of painting yellow or white boxes, however if a motorist causes an obstruction in the junction they are charged as if it was a yellow box junction.

GrumpyMe · 03-04-2019 07:22AM

J_R wrote: »

... Just very basic common sense and it is applicable to all junctions...

If so many drivers can't stop at amber unless unsafe to do so and if so many run reds - I don't think we can rely on common sense. One man's (or woman's) common sense is another's reckless driving.

Teaching by RSA should be clear where a rule, turning box for instance, takes precedence over another. Using my common sense I understand/believe that the turning box takes precedence. The yellow hatching is possibly redundant at the OP's junction for right turning vehicles but like ink on paper, roads never refuse road markings.

J_R · 03-04-2019 11:01AM

GrumpyMe wrote: »

If so many drivers can't stop at amber unless unsafe to do so and if so many run reds - I don't think we can rely on common sense. One man's (or woman's) common sense is another's reckless driving.

Teaching by RSA should be clear where a rule, turning box for instance, takes precedence over another. Using my common sense I understand/believe that the turning box takes precedence. The yellow hatching is possibly redundant at the OP's junction for right turning vehicles but like ink on paper, roads never refuse road markings.

Hi,

Yes agree with the bolded. They should do a series of adverts.

The yellow box has nothing to do with turning right. It is there to stop traffic tail-gating each other through the junction and then when the lights change causing obstruction to crossing traffic. I always taught my pupils never block any junction, irrespective of markings.

Should be simple matter really to educate people not to enter a junction unless their exit was clear. And also their turning right position. No need for road markings.

Regarding roads accepting markings, many many years ago I sneaked a read of a contract submitted to the council for a road widening project. White line was €11.00 a metre. Do not know if that was normal or not but at the time it sounded an exorbitant figure. Could be one reason for all the unnecessary road markings.

J_R · 03-04-2019 11:11AM

Hi

From Wikipedia

In Australia, New Zealand and the European Union (excluding Ireland and the United Kingdom), road rules state that every intersection is a box: that is, the driver may not enter any intersection unless there is clear space on the other side, whether it is marked or not. In the EU this also applies to junctions with a minor road within the waiting area of a traffic light on the major road. This is generally respected, though rarely in Germany, but the diagonal grid is still painted on some congested intersections[where?] to remind drivers of the rule and on level crossings where blocking the intersection could cause an accident. The same rule applies at every intersection in Russia.[8]

Several U.S. states have enacted laws intending to decrease gridlock at intersections, railroad crossings, and marked crosswalks which prohibit motorists from entering any of the three until they are certain their vehicle can clear it, as recommended by Uniform Vehicle Code section 11-1112.[9] Examples include California,[10] Florida,[11] and Ohio.[12] No special road markings are used to indicate this rule, but some governments post warning signs to increase awareness of the law at problematic intersections.

But entering a junction to turn right will not cause an obstruction IF you enter the junction fully, leaving excessive distance may.

osarusan · 03-04-2019 11:42AM

J_R wrote: »

1. On green, Drive through if clear, and
2. Again on green, If being blocked by oncoming traffic to drive in as far as possible. Ideal spot to stop is just short of your turning point. However taking care not to block any other traffic that has a green light. And that is it, no boxes necessary, yellow, green, blue whatever. Just very basic common sense and it is applicable to all junctions.

Surely the issue is what happens if a person drives into the middle of the junction, waits for the gap in oncoming traffic to appear, but it never appears before the lights change, and now they are stranded in the middle of the junction when the traffic starts to cross from left and right.

In junctions that don't have a filter light for right turns, there is always that risk.

Or am I misunderstanding your post?

Alanstrainor · 03-04-2019 11:50AM

osarusan wrote: »

Surely the issue is what happens if a person drives into the middle of the junction, waits for the gap in oncoming traffic to appear, but it never appears before the lights change, and now they are stranded in the middle of the junction when the traffic starts to cross from left and right.

In junctions that don't have a filter light for right turns, there is always that risk.

Or am I misunderstanding your post?

The case you describe would be common, and the rule is that you must then clear the junction even if the light is red. This would be perfectly acceptable during a test, and the correct action to take. Proceed with caution and clear the junction.

But this thread has gone on far too long, when the answer to the OP was so simple. Use the turning box. That's it's purpose. You have proceeded into the junction and stopped in the turning box, which in turn has a sensor which will cause the green arrow to appear and allow you to proceed.

All this discussion about the junction being weird, non-standard and confusing is essentially irrelevant to the question at hand. While these points are true, you should use the junction as it is configured now. Not how it should be configured as that creates confusion and uncertainty.

Use the turning box. That's what it is there for. End of story.

J_R · 03-04-2019 02:16PM

osarusan wrote: »

Surely the issue is what happens if a person drives into the middle of the junction, waits for the gap in oncoming traffic to appear, but it never appears before the lights change, and now they are stranded in the middle of the junction when the traffic starts to cross from left and right.

In junctions that don't have a filter light for right turns, there is always that risk.

Or am I misunderstanding your post?

Hi,

No Risk, but you should never worry about getting stranded. The oncoming traffic must stop on amber, you might get an amber gambler, but definitely stop on red, then there is a further safety margin of three seconds when all the lights in the junction are red.

Remember, after you clear your white line you are no longer controlled by the lights. So when safe you go irrespective of the lights.

If you should happen to get stranded, just sit there, was not your fault. Someone blows at you, shrug your shoulders. The problem was caused by the traffic that broke the lights.

And you should do exactly the same in the test.

I know Ireland does not get much snow but what happens if the white box disappears under a blanket of snow ?

Yellow-box junction with a white "right-turn box" preceding it

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