Aberdeen Lodge Repossession

twowheelsonly · 31-03-2019 9:56am

Hoboo wrote: »

To be frank I don't know, I'm just stating my understanding so far. I'm not sure if they're claiming when the bank collapsed they hadn't received all the funding (normally done in stages, so they wouldn't have received the final amount until final phase), or they needed more to finish, knowing once done it would clear everything, but the bank collapsed leaving them in limbo. The bank, which was the owner of the loan, sold a 25m investment for 2m. Their choice. They didn't sell the loan, they sold the property.

All GS bought was the loan on the house which was separate and has never missed a mortgage payment. The 25m had nothing to do with them. The 25m was Guaranteed by the house, not vice versa.

If GS had bought the 25m loan they could take the house, not the other way around.

That's my understanding of it as well. If GS only bought the house portion of the loan then why are they using the €26m claim to further their case for repossession in the courts ? Did somebody else buy the €26m loan ? Were the couple servicing that loan up to the time of that sale? If not then how badly in debt was it?
Personally I think if the original bank sold the main asset (the proposed hotel) for €2m then they're effectively taking back their investment and selling it cheaply by their own volition.
Having said that there's not enough detail in what we've heard so far and this has gone all the way to the Supreme Court who have all ruled against them.

Another question that doesn't seem to answered is where are the current mortgage payments going to ? €5,000 per month was mentioned and if this has been going on for seven years that's a lot of money to have paid over for nothing.

I can 'kinda' see both sides of the cases. IMO, the banks jumped too quickly in selling off loans at the time. Of course they did that because they were in trouble themselves but in doing so they dragged down a lot of businesses with them.

Kermit.de.frog · 31-03-2019 10:15am

Anyone with debt overdue should be held accountable by their institution and the courts.

No different with this couple or any others.

They owe, they can't pay and so the assets should be taken.

Ultimately the rest of us pay in our mortgages and interest rates if these issues are not sorted.

I understand how difficult this would be for them but my opinion on this is simple : slim down, declare yourself bankrupt, surrender your assets and rebuild your life from there.

It's the easiest way. Delaying the inevitable and living in denial and stress and all that goes with it is the worst option.

evolving_doors · 31-03-2019 10:26am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Anyone with debt overdue should be held accountable by their institution and the courts.

No different with this couple or any others.

They owe, they can't pay and so the assets should be taken.

Ultimately the rest of us pay in our mortgages and interest rates if these issues are not sorted.

But they can repay the loan the same as we can repay our mortgages!
From what i can gather is the bank want to call in the full whack rather than let them pay according to the terms of the loan.

So it would be the same as if we were paying out or mortgage but the bank called in the whole amount.

Is that what's happening?

Underground · 31-03-2019 10:32am

Nobody gives out "unsecured" €25m loans, they are taking the public for mugs.

Research has been done on this act of strategic defaulting in Ireland (I think the guy from askaboutmoney.ie did a report on it) and it has been found that borrowers such as this couple cost the average "good" borrower about €250 a month. In other words, because of cases such as this one, you pay roughly an extra €3,000 per year in mortgage repayments than you otherwise would in say Germany.

AndrewJRenko · 31-03-2019 10:52am

Underground wrote: »

Nobody gives out "unsecured" €25m loans, they are taking the public for mugs.

Research has been done on this act of strategic defaulting in Ireland (I think the guy from askaboutmoney.ie did a report on it) and it has been found that borrowers such as this couple cost the average "good" borrower about €250 a month. In other words, because of cases such as this one, you pay roughly an extra €3,000 per year in mortgage repayments than you otherwise would in say Germany.

It's a negotiating tactic. They see that GS paid €300k for their €1m debt, and they want a slice of that discount.

I must try that the next time I go to the pub. Hey Mr Barman, you got that pint from Guinness for just €2.50, so I'm not going to pay a fiver for it.

31-03-2019 10:55am

evolving_doors wrote: »

But they can repay the loan the same as we can repay our mortgages!
From what i can gather is the bank want to call in the full whack rather than let them pay according to the terms of the loan.

So it would be the same as if we were paying out or mortgage but the bank called in the whole amount.

Is that what's happening?

They’re not paying nor have they paid. At €5,000 a month it’d take 400 years to repay the loan, not to mention the interest. What became of the €25,000,000?

seligehgit · 31-03-2019 11:16am

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Because only the house was used as collateral. The bank has no claim over anything else

Indeed but if they have that scale of liquidity it should be used to make even the smallest indent into 25 million loan.

The repossession should be proceed and that monthly 5,000 euro payment should continue or increase if they have more liquidity.

seligehgit · 31-03-2019 11:21am

evolving_doors wrote: »

But they can repay the loan the same as we can repay our mortgages!
From what i can gather is the bank want to call in the full whack rather than let them pay according to the terms of the loan.

So it would be the same as if we were paying out or mortgage but the bank called in the whole amount.

Is that what's happening?

According to that article it's not the family home but an asset of the business that was used as collateral on the loan.

So it can be called in.

31-03-2019 11:22am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

They’re not paying nor have they paid. At €5,000 a month it’d take 400 years to repay the loan, not to mention the interest. What became of the €25,000,000?

It’s very confusing. Crossplan investments ltd took out the €20 odd million loan for the new hotel venture. Pat Halpin is a director of that. Elektron ltd own and took on the mortgage and other loans for Aberdeen House. They are both (ithink) directors of that company. She is anyway.

How both debts have amalgamated into one, I’m not so sure. Have Goldman Sachs taking action against the companies or the individuals?

TomasMacR · 31-03-2019 11:55am

What is crystal clear about this whole charade is that they are both exceptionally shįt business people.

There’s a big echo in here without any answer of WHAT IN SWEET F*CKING JESUS HAPPENED TO THE €25 mill?!?!?!

twowheelsonly · 31-03-2019 12:19pm

TomasMacR wrote: »

What is crystal clear about this whole charade is that they are both exceptionally shįt business people.

There’s a big echo in here without any answer of WHAT IN SWEET F*CKING JESUS HAPPENED TO THE €25 mill?!?!?!

It looks like it was spent on refurbishing / building the hotel but the bank shaat the course and ended up selling the lot for €2m (which seems ridiculously low IMO) and subsequently the loan was passed on to Anglo and ultimately Goldman Sachs.

DeanAustin · 31-03-2019 12:20pm

TomasMacR wrote: »

What is crystal clear about this whole charade is that they are both exceptionally shįt business people.

There’s a big echo in here without any answer of WHAT IN SWEET F*CKING JESUS HAPPENED TO THE €25 mill?!?!?!

That’s what I don’t get. Did they draw down the 25 mill and use it? If so and the house was used as collateral, I have some sympathy, but they haven’t a leg to stand on.

Signore Fancy Pants · 31-03-2019 12:55pm

4ensic15 wrote: »

They have an offer of a loan. if the original loan is redeemed.

Ah thats grand. Write the loan off so.

mad m · 31-03-2019 2:26pm

TomasMacR wrote: »

There’s a big echo in here without any answer of WHAT IN SWEET F*CKING JESUS HAPPENED TO THE €25 mill?!?!?!

Hold on. 25m. It was 26m. What happened to the other million since this thread was first started.:)

TomasMacR · 31-03-2019 3:51pm

mad m wrote: »

Hold on. 25m. It was 26m. What happened to the other million since this thread was first started.:)

Think it was €25.5mill, the bank rounded down and said don’t worry about it

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/commercial-property/ibrc-seeks-25-5m-judgment-on-loans-1.542189?mode=amp

which by the way, my local SuperValu, whoever the miserable p*ick that runs it has a rounding policy, as encouraged some time back, only thing is, I have only ever been rounded down. I get the exact sum of change back every single time if it’s leaving the shop short a cent or two in my favour. This happens without fail every time. Might be for another thread...

4ensic15 · 31-03-2019 4:17pm

Most of the €25m will likely be interest on the original borrowings.

31-03-2019 4:28pm

4ensic15 wrote: »

Most of the €25m will likely be interest on the original borrowings.

Not according to news reports. “‘I originally was involved in doing a hotel project in Ballsbridge, which €25million was spent on but Irish Nationwide went bankrupt basically during the course of that project and really caused that project to collapse” https://extra.ie/2019/03/29/news/irish-news/dublin-4-property-repossession-couple

31-03-2019 6:05pm

News reports all saying different amounts.

https://www.irishlegal.com/article/high-court-personal-insolvency-practitioners-not-required-to-work-miracles-to-protect-principal-residences

31-03-2019 6:12pm

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

News reports all saying different amounts.

https://www.irishlegal.com/article/high-court-personal-insolvency-practitioners-not-required-to-work-miracles-to-protect-principal-residences

If you add the two figures together, 23.9 plus 1.1 million equals 25 million

AlekSmart · 31-03-2019 8:19pm

Deleted User wrote: »

If you add the two figures together, 23.9 plus 1.1 million equals 25 million

Was the Sandymount House put forward as collateral ?

Is there documentation signed by either or both of these people agreeing to the guarantee ?

Something is not stacking up here ....

ohnonotgmail · 31-03-2019 8:27pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

Was the Sandymount House put forward as collateral ?

Is there documentation signed by either or both of these people agreeing to the guarantee ?

Something is not stacking up here ....

A court was satisfied that the guarantee exists. Do you imagine they just took the banks word for it?

Allinall · 31-03-2019 8:48pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

Was the Sandymount House put forward as collateral ?

Is there documentation signed by either or both of these people agreeing to the guarantee ?

Something is not stacking up here ....

Why wouldn’t there be documentation signed?
The court determined in favour of the bank on the basis that guarantees were given.

31-03-2019 9:30pm

Crossplan Investments Limited have a debt of over 23 million.

Elektron (which owns Aberdeen House) have a debt of 1.1 million.

Why are the debts of two different companies being combined? Anyone understand company law?

The couple are paying back on the ElektronAberdeen House debt but in some sort of personal capacity rather than an insolvent company. They have the ability to fund the debt completely and what they said on prime time about valuation of property now makes more sense. Goldman Sachs day it’s worth 3 million and they say it’s 2 million.

The two separate limited companies part is throwing me. I haven’t got my head around the legal talk on that bit.

ohnonotgmail · 31-03-2019 9:32pm

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

Crossplan Investments Limited have a debt of over 23 million.

Elektron (which owns Aberdeen House) have a debt of 1.1 million.

Why are the debts of two different companies being combined? Anyone understand company law?

The couple are paying back on the ElektronAberdeen House debt but in some sort of personal capacity rather than an insolvent company. They have the ability to fund the debt completely and what they said on prime time about valuation of property now makes more sense. Goldman Sachs day it’s worth 3 million and they say it’s 2 million.

The two separate limited companies part is throwing me. I haven’t got my head around the legal talk on that bit.

Elecktron provided the guarantee for the crossplan loan. they were owned by the same people.

31-03-2019 9:43pm

Ah. But Elektron is insolvent so the 5 grand a month they are paying really is dead money as their liability as directors couldn’t be that much, could it?

31-03-2019 10:16pm

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

Crossplan Investments Limited have a debt of over 23 million.

Elektron (which owns Aberdeen House) have a debt of 1.1 million.

Why are the debts of two different companies being combined? Anyone understand company law?

Because, as reported, he gave a personal guarantee on the Crossplan loan. So it is more than just a Crossplan company debt. Presumably Crossplan were having difficuly getting the loan as a company so the personal guarantee was added as security.

Once Crossplan couldn't pay then any personal guarantor is in the firing line. Same as if you were to give a personal guarantee to a family member for a loan. If they defaulted, even if they went bankrupt, you would become liable for the loan. A company director leaves themselves exposed if they give a personal guarantee.

31-03-2019 10:30pm

Now I’m confused again. If it’s a personal guarantee it would have nothing to do with Elektron.

It’s all quite complex that’s for sure.

ohnonotgmail · 31-03-2019 11:01pm

1641 wrote: »

Because, as reported, he gave a personal guarantee on the Crossplan loan. So it is more than just a Crossplan company debt. Presumably Crossplan were having difficuly getting the loan as a company so the personal guarantee was added as security.

Once Crossplan couldn't pay then any personal guarantor is in the firing line. Same as if you were to give a personal guarantee to a family member for a loan. If they defaulted, even if they went bankrupt, you would become liable for the loan. A company director leaves themselves exposed if they give a personal guarantee.

I have not seen any mention of a personal guarantee. There was a cross-company guarantee.

01-04-2019 8:25am

Mr Patrick Halpin gave a guarantee to Irish Nationwide Building Society (INBS) in respect of the liabilities of Crossplan Investments Limited.

Elektron Holdings Limited was another guarantor. Mr Halpin’s partner, Ms Ann Keane, is a director and shareholder in Elektron. Irish Bank Resolution Corporation Limited (IBRC) is the successor in title to INBS.

Elektron also owes money to IBRC, and as part of the security for its indebtedness, Elektron gave security over Aberdeen Lodge – a hotel or guest house in Dublin.

In 2012, IBRC appointed a receiver over the assets of Elektron including Aberdeen Lodge. IBRC also appointed a receiver over the assets of Crossplan.

In the High Court in 2012, IBRC obtained a judgment for €20 million against Mr Halpin, and it 2013 IBRC obtained judgment for a further sum of €6,338,369.

The loans and related security were sold by IBRC to Kenmare Property Finance DAC, therefore the right to enforce those judgments now vests in Kenmare.

In the High Court in 2015, Kenmare was given leave to issue execution in respect of those judgments against Mr Halpin. Following realisation made by the receiver over Crossplan’s assets, the amount now due on foot of the judgments is €23,933,503.

Mr Halpin and Ms Keane assert that Aberdeen Lodge is their family home, however, this is not accepted by Kenmare

In February 2018, Kenmare commenced bankruptcy proceedings against Mr Halpin in respect of the €23.9m unpaid judgment debt. The proceedings were adjourned to allow Mr Halpin to obtain the advice of a Personal Insolvency Practitioner, and thereafter Mr Halpin indicated that he was advised that he was eligible to apply for a PIA.

https://www.irishlegal.com/article/high-court-personal-insolvency-practitioners-not-required-to-work-miracles-to-protect-principal-residences

punisher5112 · 01-04-2019 8:46am

How can a b&b afford to pay €5k a month in repayments or am I missing something?

Aberdeen Lodge Repossession

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