Yellow-box junction with a white "right-turn box" preceding it

zepman · 29-03-2019 10:19AM #1

Hi there,

There's a junction in my practice route that has a yellow box as well as a white box just before the yellow box. Here's a picture from the street view -

There's a pedestrian crossing area and what looks like a cycle bay (the road markings are worn) before the white box.

I am not sure about the rules for making a right turn at a junction like this. Two scenarios -

1) Whenever I have been the first car in the queue at the junction, I've always moved up into the yellow box upon getting a solid green light. Is this correct, or is the white box the waiting area for the first car in the queue?

2) Yesterday, I was second in the queue here. Once the light turned solid green, the first car moved up into the yellow box. I moved up a bit but stayed behind the first white line before the cycle bay. Should I have moved up into that white box in this situation?

Alanstrainor · 29-03-2019 10:34AM

You should move up and stop in the turning box with the arrow (not the yellow box) when the lights go green. Wait for the filter or a break in traffic and proceed. This is a terribly designed junction, and is non-standard in my opinion.

If there is someone in front of you making the turn, I would think that they would use this junction incorrectly and stop in the yellow box well in front of the turning box. I would then wait in the turning box until the lights turn in your favour. Although I would confirm this with your instructor.

Dravokivich · 29-03-2019 10:54AM

In the test, you are expected to follow the road markings ahead of you. Use the turning box. That's what should activate the filter light. If there was no turning box, you can use the yellow box, to wait for an opportunity to turn right, once it doesn't impede anyone else.

Test or no test, I'd use the turning box, as that's what it's there for.

GrumpyMe · 30-03-2019 10:33AM

I'd agree with previous comment as to the poor design and liaising with your instructor.

As per RotR -

A turning box...
This shows where to position a vehicle if you want to take a right turn. Do not proceed into the box through a red light.
If oncoming traffic means you cannot take a right turn immediately, you must wait in the box until you can safely take the turn.
(It uses must and must not to draw attention to behaviour the law clearly demands or forbids.)

So "rules" say you must use it other than when you can turn immediately. So if you have a full green and no oncoming traffic [and I would add, room to enter the left lane of the road on the right] you can ignore the turning box and turn. Otherwise, use the box.
All turning boxes have induction loops which detect substantial vehicles and so trigger a right filter arrow in time. It may not work for cycles!!!
This means you WILL get an opportunity to turn on the filter by waiting in the box, if not beforehand. Usually it will allow more than one vehicle to filer right turn.

J_R · 30-03-2019 11:26AM

Hi,

when I was an instructor I used to advise my pupils to ignore white boxes completely, instead follow the rules and common sense.

My advice, when turning right, irrespective of white, yellow or no box whatsoever, if first car in line and blocked by oncoming traffic and exit clear, to drive straight into the junction, and position the car with the front of the car level with the white line of the road they were turning into. Ensuring to leave a clear path for the oncoming traffic that is going straight through to pass to their right. If any turning right then make eye contact etc etc.

This means they would now have the shortest distance to travel when clear. which will allow them to avail of a smaller gap in the oncoming traffic. Further back, greater distance required.

Reason for the above advice. I knew of two white boxes incorrectly placed, one dangerously so. Also never found any government rules, regulations or even guidance on white boxes. To me, total mystery where or how they originated.

Re. OP. If 1st in line turning right, provided the road you were turning into was clear, as above. If 2nd in line I would follow the first car in, there appears no danger that you would block oncoming traffic. Note, when your lights go red, the other lights do not go green for three seconds plus green does not signal GO, it says go - if - clear. So you will have time to clear, if not you should be allowed to clear.

However if I was an instructor in that area I would have a chat with the RSA supervisor regarding that junction. Just to be sure to be sure.

J_R · 30-03-2019 11:33AM

GrumpyMe wrote: »

I'd agree with previous comment as to the poor design and liaising with your instructor.

As per RotR -

A turning box...
This shows where to position a vehicle if you want to take a right turn. Do not proceed into the box through a red light.
If oncoming traffic means you cannot take a right turn immediately, you must wait in the box until you can safely take the turn.
(It uses must and must not to draw attention to behaviour the law clearly demands or forbids.)

So "rules" say you must use it other than when you can turn immediately. So if you have a full green and no oncoming traffic [and I would add, room to enter the left lane of the road on the right] you can ignore the turning box and turn. Otherwise, use the box.
All turning boxes have induction loops which detect substantial vehicles and so trigger a right filter arrow in time. It may not work for cycles!!!
This means you WILL get an opportunity to turn on the filter by waiting in the box, if not beforehand. Usually it will allow more than one vehicle to filer right turn.

Hi,

Stand corrected. This new since I retired. Sneaking:o away

J_R · 30-03-2019 11:46AM

Hi,

Now that have seen the info re white boxes. The above rectangle is not a "Turning Right" box as the definition of such box is

A turning box showing a white arrow in a white edged box, found at junctions controlled by traffic light

And it is positioned very badly for right turns

So definitely have a chat with an instructor if on a test route

zepman · 30-03-2019 12:56PM

Thanks, everyone for your replies!

I got a chance to ask my instructor about this only yesterday. He said that I should move into the yellow box upon getting a solid green if I'm the first in the queue. But he added that in the test, it might be better to only roll up and wait in the white box.

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

Now that have seen the info re white boxes. The above rectangle is not a "Turning Right" box as the definition of such box is

A turning box showing a white arrow in a white edged box, found at junctions controlled by traffic light

And it is positioned very badly for right turns

That's exactly it. From the Rules of the Road, I am aware of the rules regarding the white turning boxes. But as you said, the one in this junction is different from what is shown in the picture in the Rules book. This one has a broken white border, and more importantly, it is positioned before the junction. It is definitely a long distance to cover if waiting for a gap by staying in this box.

Luckily, the junction is only on my way back home from practice and there's no chance of it being on the test route (too far). But just in terms of knowing how to deal with it in regular driving, it's confusing.

GrumpyMe wrote: »

All turning boxes have induction loops which detect substantial vehicles and so trigger a right filter arrow in time. It may not work for cycles!!!
This means you WILL get an opportunity to turn on the filter by waiting in the box, if not beforehand. Usually it will allow more than one vehicle to filer right turn.

Dravokivich wrote: »

Use the turning box. That's what should activate the filter light.

Yeah, taking a closer look at the road in the street view, I can see the loop sealant markings inside the white box. So I will wait in the white box the next time I'm at the junction and see if it works better.

J_R · 31-03-2019 02:49AM

zepman wrote: »

Thanks, everyone for your replies!

I got a chance to ask my instructor about this only yesterday. He said that I should move into the yellow box upon getting a solid green if I'm the first in the queue. But he added that in the test, it might be better to only roll up and wait in the white box.

That's exactly it. From the Rules of the Road, I am aware of the rules regarding the white turning boxes. But as you said, the one in this junction is different from what is shown in the picture in the Rules book. This one has a broken white border, and more importantly, it is positioned before the junction. It is definitely a long distance to cover if waiting for a gap by staying in this box.

Luckily, the junction is only on my way back home from practice and there's no chance of it being on the test route (too far). But just in terms of knowing how to deal with it in regular driving, it's confusing.

Yeah, taking a closer look at the road in the street view, I can see the loop sealant markings inside the white box. So I will wait in the white box the next time I'm at the junction and see if it works better.

Hi,

If I was turning right and was behind a car who only moved forward and stopped in that box, I would be a little annoyed. If safe, I would overtake and stop in the centre of the junction.

I used to tell my pupils that all rules regarding driving were based on common sense and all could be explained with a reasoned explanation. However I would add, except speed zones, speed ramps and the the placing of some road markings and signs. These I would explain were controlled by politicians or political appointees.

That box does not make any sense. Perhaps it is for cars making U-turns ?

Write to the council ??

fritzelly · 31-03-2019 03:04AM

I'm confused by that layout and been driving for 30 years
There is some distance to go if you stay in the turning box to take a right turn by which time the lights change and you're still gonna be stuck in the yellow box (is that what happened with the red car?)
As JR said badly positioned for right turns - should be in the middle of the yellow box

Can you give a Google maps link to the junction?

zepman · 31-03-2019 09:59AM

fritzelly wrote: »

I'm confused by that layout and been driving for 30 years
There is some distance to go if you stay in the turning box to take a right turn by which time the lights change and you're still gonna be stuck in the yellow box (is that what happened with the red car?)
As JR said badly positioned for right turns - should be in the middle of the yellow box

Can you give a Google maps link to the junction?

The link is in my first post just before the picture ("street view").

The picture is from the street view and it looks like the green filter light is on for turning right. So the red car is actually making the turn there.

Isambard · 31-03-2019 01:45PM

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

If I was turning right and was behind a car who only moved forward and stopped in that box, I would be a little annoyed. If safe, I would overtake and stop in the centre of the junction.

I used to tell my pupils that all rules regarding driving were based on common sense and all could be explained with a reasoned explanation. However I would add, except speed zones, speed ramps and the the placing of some road markings and signs. These I would explain were controlled by politicians or political appointees.

That box does not make any sense. Perhaps it is for cars making U-turns ?

Write to the council ??

Yes I would have felt the same until I read the explanation here. If you pull past the box, the lights don't know there's a car waiting and won't trigger the filter lights. It makes sense but should get more publicity. I wouldn't have known about that before this thread.

mikeymouse · 31-03-2019 02:13PM

fritzelly wrote: »

I'm confused by that layout and been driving for 30 years
There is some distance to go if you stay in the turning box to take a right turn by which time the lights change and you're still gonna be stuck in the yellow box (is that what happened with the red car?)
As JR said badly positioned for right turns - should be in the middle of the yellow box

Can you give a Google maps link to the junction?

No, the red car had a green filter ,and was on it's way,
looks like the Skoda did a U turn at the lights!!
here's the link ;(just off jn. 4 M50), R108 junction with Santry road,R104

Marcusm · 31-03-2019 02:26PM

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

If I was turning right and was behind a car who only moved forward and stopped in that box, I would be a little annoyed. If safe, I would overtake and stop in the centre of the junction.

I used to tell my pupils that all rules regarding driving were based on common sense and all could be explained with a reasoned explanation. However I would add, except speed zones, speed ramps and the the placing of some road markings and signs. These I would explain were controlled by politicians or political appointees.

That box does not make any sense. Perhaps it is for cars making U-turns ?

Write to the council ??

So, to summarise, as a former “professional” driver you would make a dangerous, unlawful manoeuvre (passing on left) to interfere with someone acting within the rules? No really the type of thing to be advocating in a “Learning to Drive” forum. It doesn’t assist anyone.

mikeymouse · 31-03-2019 02:36PM

Marcusm wrote: »

So, to summarise, as a former “professional” driver you would make a dangerous, unlawful manoeuvre (passing on left) to interfere with someone acting within the rules? No really the type of thing to be advocating in a “Learning to Drive” forum. It doesn’t assist anyone.

I think this junction is 'left side to left side' for right turners

Isambard · 31-03-2019 03:38PM

mikeymouse wrote: »

I think this junction is 'left side to left side' for right turners

that's not what he meant.

Wishbone Ash · 31-03-2019 04:55PM

fritzelly wrote: »

I'm confused by that layout and been driving for 30 years
There is some distance to go if you stay in the turning box to take a right turn by which time the lights change and you're still gonna be stuck in the yellow box...

There is an inductive loop in the white box. If you pass it without stopping, the right turn green arrow won't activate.

J_R · 31-03-2019 04:56PM

Marcusm wrote: »

So, to summarise, as a former “professional” driver you would make a dangerous, unlawful manoeuvre (passing on left) to interfere with someone acting within the rules? No really the type of thing to be advocating in a “Learning to Drive” forum. It doesn’t assist anyone.

Hi,

Explain "unlawful manoeuvre", but first familiarise yourself with the Rules of the Road in particular when it is legal to undertake on the left.

Marcusm · 31-03-2019 05:03PM

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

Explain "unlawful manoeuvre", but first familiarise yourself with the Rules of the Road in particular when it is legal to undertake on the left.

There is no such thing as undertaking on the left. It’s still an overtaking manoeuvre and you described doing so to turn right. You cannot do that. You can pass someone on the left when in multi lane traffic moving slowly or when someone is turning right and you are carrying on straight. You described getting frustrated with someone not making progress while you queued behind him to turn right. What you described was a dangerous manoeuvre.

J_R · 31-03-2019 05:11PM

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

There is an inductive loop in the white box. If you pass it without stopping, the right turn green arrow won't activate.

Hi,

no I think it is unnecessary to stop. As a car drives over, the coil senses the change in the electro- magnetic field and this will trigger the light. If a car sits stationary they will be no extra change, only the change as it arrives and leaves.

My beef with the box is its position. It should be in the junction. There can not be exceptions to the general rule that right turning cars proceed into the junction and await a clearance. (If they can not clear it immediately)

J_R · 31-03-2019 05:15PM

Marcusm wrote: »

There is no such thing as undertaking on the left. It’s still an overtaking manoeuvre and you described doing so to turn right. You cannot do that. You can pass someone on the left when in multi lane traffic moving slowly or when someone is turning right and you are carrying on straight. You described getting frustrated with someone not making progress while you queued behind him to turn right. What you described was a dangerous manoeuvre.

I would assume that a car sitting in that box was waiting to make a U-Turn, and I did say "If SAFE" I would undertake. As for legality he is turning right I am continuing straight, then turning right

Marcusm · 31-03-2019 07:56PM

J_R wrote: »

I would assume that a car sitting in that box was waiting to make a U-Turn, and I did say "If SAFE" I would undertake. As for legality he is turning right I am continuing straight, then turning right

Irrespective of whether he is making a u-turn or taking the road to the right, the manoeuvre you describe is downright dangerous. Did you say you were a driving instructor? Surely you would advusectisk based decisions, ie assume he is moving in the direction he is indicating not assume a u-turn. Christ on a bike.

Wishbone Ash · 31-03-2019 09:09PM

Marcusm wrote:

.... the manoeuvre you describe is downright dangerous.....

Leaving aside whether it is right or wrong, how is it 'downright dangerous'. Did you miss the bit about 'if safe to do so'.

J_R · 01-04-2019 01:19AM

Marcusm wrote: »

Irrespective of whether he is making a u-turn or taking the road to the right, the manoeuvre you describe is downright dangerous. Did you say you were a driving instructor? Surely you would advusectisk based decisions, ie assume he is moving in the direction he is indicating not assume a u-turn. Christ on a bike.

Hi,

I do not think very much of your driving ability if you believe it is downright dangerous to undertake (or overtake) a stationary vehicle in a junction.

Perhaps if you work on your observational skills it may give you the confidence to perform such a manoeuvre safely.

Dravokivich · 01-04-2019 09:42AM

J_R wrote: »

I would assume that a car sitting in that box was waiting to make a U-Turn, and I did say "If SAFE" I would undertake. As for legality he is turning right I am continuing straight, then turning right

You aren't continuing straight. You are just plonking yourself in front of someone, who is waiting for an opportunity to turn right. It doesn't matter how far right they intend to go.

J_R · 01-04-2019 09:46AM

Dravokivich wrote: »

You aren't continuing straight. You are just plonking yourself in front of someone, who is waiting for an opportunity to turn right. It doesn't matter how far right they intend to go.

Hi,

So ?. First opportunity I will be gone. I will not delay him/her for a micro-second.

Dravokivich · 01-04-2019 09:53AM

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

So ?. First opportunity I will be gone. I will not delay him/her for a micro-second.

You have delayed them by jumping the queue.

J_R · 01-04-2019 09:58AM

Dravokivich wrote: »

You have delayed them by jumping the queue.

Hi,

What queue ? He is queuing in the wrong place. As I will have less than half the distance to clear the junction compared to him, I can avail of a smaller gap in traffic to safely continue. I could be several kilometres down the road before he gets an opportunity to go.

J_R · 01-04-2019 10:01AM

Hi,

I believe that white boxes were introduced to encourage motorists to move up into the junction.

Putting it back almost at the traffic light white line is a retro step

Dravokivich · 01-04-2019 10:04AM

There's too many bespoke junctions to make such a simple argument. When driving, opinions should be left outside. We should all be driving to a simple set of expectations. Pushing yourself about and interfering with others, is not the way to go about it. Then to endorse it, through instruction? Come on..

Marcusm · 01-04-2019 10:26AM

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

I do not think very much of your driving ability if you believe it is downright dangerous to undertake (or overtake) a stationary vehicle in a junction.

Perhaps if you work on your observational skills it may give you the confidence to perform such a manoeuvre safely.

You said pass on the left then pull in front of him and turn in the direction he has signalled to turn. If you cannot see why that is dangerous then I am glad you are no longer a driving instructor. As regards the law, it is contrary to the 10 of http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/si/182/made/en/print#article10

Yellow-box junction with a white "right-turn box" preceding it

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