Ethiopian Airlines Crash/ B737MAX grounding

Inquitus · 22-03-2019 08:58PM

gctest50 wrote: »

And that was the problem, they weren't really pilots, more like three quarter programmed androids

how could they miss this kinda thing ?

the spinning wheel of death must be the most obvious thing surely ?

how could they miss these ?

right beside the spinning wheels of death :

Stick shaker, warnings, 1000ft of altitude and a checklist you are supposed to refer to in the case of issue. It's easy now we all know what they should have done, but its quite another thing executing this in the most dangerous phase of flight with no altitude to play with. The blame here lies solely with Boeing, The FAA and the self certification of a dangerous system, without input redundancy, that can aggressively trim the aircraft nose down over and over again unless disabled.

gctest50 · 22-03-2019 09:17PM

Inquitus wrote: »

Stick shaker, warnings, 1000ft of altitude and a checklist you are supposed to refer to in the case of issue. It's easy now we all know what they should have done, but its quite another thing executing this in the most dangerous phase of flight with no altitude to play with. The blame here lies solely with Boeing, The FAA and the self certification of a dangerous system, without input redundancy, that can aggressively trim the aircraft nose down over and over again unless disabled.

There is a wire rope all the way from those spinning wheels all the way to the tail same as before

This whole thing is not a new thing -eg if the brakes fail on the setup, the force on it from the air flowing over it may cause it to move

or the computer/relay/wiring goes daft, it will run away by itself and you might end up stuck in the ground like a dart

turn off the electrics to it, if it stops, it was electrical

if it doesn't stop, it airflow/somethings failed

start winding the spinning wheel fairly lively so and put it back to where it should be before you crash hopefully

gctest50 · 22-03-2019 09:20PM

If this creation fails badly, everyone dies :

gctest50 · 22-03-2019 09:31PM

Drum with cables underneath that thing in the post above :

Phil.x · 23-03-2019 12:07AM

I think they will "quickly" come out with a new variety of the 737 and banish the max to the history books.

L1011 · 23-03-2019 12:19AM

Phil.x wrote: »

I think they will "quickly" come out with a new variety of the 737 and banish the max to the history books.

Cost of that would be tens of billions between cancelled orders, compensation and development costs.

The cheap option is to get a software fix out there, make the "options" standard and retrofit them to the existing fleet; maybe look at an STC for a third AoA sensor and voting. And hope there isn't another horror waiting to appear.

Jeff2 · 23-03-2019 12:26AM

cnocbui wrote: »

Everyone using hindsight is an expert.

In hindsight.
Corners were cut to get a product to market at all cost.

Safety was compromised to get a plane out with no new training even though it had new bigger engines moved forward and had a electronic system that could bypass the pilot.

No, if I knew all this I'd not fly on one.

murphaph · 23-03-2019 01:02AM

gctest50 wrote: »

There is a wire rope all the way from those spinning wheels all the way to the tail same as before

This whole thing is not a new thing -eg if the brakes fail on the setup, the force on it from the air flowing over it may cause it to move

or the computer/relay/wiring goes daft, it will run away by itself and you might end up stuck in the ground like a dart

turn off the electrics to it, if it stops, it was electrical

if it doesn't stop, it airflow/somethings failed

start winding the spinning wheel fairly lively so and put it back to where it should be before you crash hopefully

How much do the wheels spin when deflecting the stab by 2.5°? Would you see this if your head was buried in a checklist 1000ft off the ground? Boeing gave these guys no chance. It's not remotely fair to blame it on either flight crew.

cnocbui · 23-03-2019 10:56AM

Jeff2 wrote: »

In hindsight.
Corners were cut to get a product to market at all cost.

Safety was compromised to get a plane out with no new training even though it had new bigger engines moved forward and had a electronic system that could bypass the pilot.

No, if I knew all this I'd not fly on one.

I was referring to the post directly above mine.

mickdw · 23-03-2019 12:09PM

Does the autopilot take similar sensor info to mcas and if so does it take it from a different sensor or multiple sensors or what.
I understand that this particular fault will only occur with autopilot off but is there a similar fault possible while on autopilot if a different sensor was to malfunction for example.

jimmycrackcorm · 23-03-2019 12:32PM

cnocbui wrote:

I wouldn't be surprised if an MCAS simulation update for the 737 Max in X-Plane 11 didn't come out before Boeing has one.

And every max pilot rushes out to get it.

Cloudio9 · 23-03-2019 01:48PM

murphaph wrote: »

How much do the wheels spin when deflecting the stab by 2.5°? Would you see this if your head was buried in a checklist 1000ft off the ground? Boeing gave these guys no chance. It's not remotely fair to blame it on either flight crew.

Plus apparently something like 40kg of pullling force needs to be applied to the control column to keep the nose up. That must get exhausting pretty quick.

Anyone know if there are cases of this issue which have been recovered ( apart from the earlier lion one with the third pilot)?

billy few mates · 23-03-2019 06:29PM

murphaph wrote: »

How much do the wheels spin when deflecting the stab by 2.5°? Would you see this if your head was buried in a checklist 1000ft off the ground? Boeing gave these guys no chance. It's not remotely fair to blame it on either flight crew.

I can't say exactly how many full cycles of the trim wheels are required for 2.5° stab trim but on the 737 you would definitely notice them turning. There's quite a loud mechanical clattering when it's moving, the black wheels have white stripes painted on them for visual cue and if the fold out handle is extended when the trim wheels rotate you'll soon know about it as it will whack you right in the shin.

billy few mates · 23-03-2019 06:45PM

mickdw wrote: »

Does the autopilot take similar sensor info to mcas and if so does it take it from a different sensor or multiple sensors or what.
I understand that this particular fault will only occur with autopilot off but is there a similar fault possible while on autopilot if a different sensor was to malfunction for example.

The alpha vanes fitted to 737s fail passively when they fail, ie they don't really cause any adverse problems because (apart from MCAS) they don't really have any direct authority on any system. They're quite a simple device, it's basically a torque synchro which gives an electrical signal to the stall management computer(s) but they're quite sensitive so have to be handled with extreme care. The most common failures are the heater element (they're heated to prevent freezing up) or mechanical wear or striction. Normally you only know they've failed when you can't test the stall warning system using the test switches on the P5 panel. Even then you'd have to do do a bite check on the computer to know it was the faulty component.

Tenger · 24-03-2019 02:51AM

cnocbui wrote: »

Everyone using hindsight is an expert.

Spot on.
I read an article about 4-5 years ago about the MAX program. It was making the point that the MAX was an act of desperation from Boeing. The A320 was doing so well and they had lost so much in the development of the B787 that they werent able to follow their plan for the 'B797' as a B737 replacement. Thus, to keep themselves competitive they had to stretch the B737 design even further. The A320, being a much newer design had 2 more upgrade cycles possible and Boeing knew they couldnt get the 'B797' in the air before the then proposed A320neo.
At the time I read it purely as an opinion on commercial priorities, and it did present itself as just that.
Hindsight gives insight that wasnt there at the time.

Personally the whole affair is saddening. 300 lives lost over a software issue put in place to save money.

Widdensushi · 24-03-2019 03:06AM

Tenger wrote: »

Spot on.
I read an article about 4-5 years ago about the MAX program. It was making the point that the MAX was an act of desperation from Boeing. The A320 was doing so well and they had lost so much in the development of the B787 that they werent able to follow their plan for the 'B797' as a B737 replacement. Thus, to keep themselves competitive they had to stretch the B737 design even further. The A320, being a much newer design had 2 more upgrade cycles possible and Boeing knew they couldnt get the 'B797' in the air before the then proposed A320neo.
At the time I read it purely as an opinion on commercial priorities, and it did present itself as just that.
Hindsight gives insight that wasnt there at the time.

Personally the whole affair is saddening. 300 lives lost over a software issue put in place to save money.

I can only relate 2 this on a marine level but it's similar when you are in a new or new to you a problem can be major but when a problem has occurred previously and you know how to remedy it it's minor.

Jeff2 · 24-03-2019 03:08AM

Tenger wrote: »

Spot on.
I read an article about 4-5 years ago about the MAX program. It was making the point that the MAX was an act of desperation from Boeing. The A320 was doing so well and they had lost so much in the development of the B787 that they werent able to follow their plan for the 'B797' as a B737 replacement. Thus, to keep themselves competitive they had to stretch the B737 design even further. The A320, being a much newer design had 2 more upgrade cycles possible and Boeing knew they couldnt get the 'B797' in the air before the then proposed A320neo.
At the time I read it purely as an opinion on commercial priorities, and it did present itself as just that.
Hindsight gives insight that wasnt there at the time.

Personally the whole affair is saddening. 300 lives lost over a software issue put in place to save money.

Do you think if you take one plane and make it longer and change the engines and there position with a new MCAS system that the pilot should know

Jeff2 · 24-03-2019 03:13AM

If I went out to ride my mates motorbike that is the same as mine and it was longer or higher or more powerful I'd like to know before going out.

Captain_Crash · 24-03-2019 09:59AM

Cloudio9 wrote: »

Anyone know if there are cases of this issue which have been recovered ( apart from the earlier lion one with the third pilot)?

I can’t find the link but I believe it was on CNN where they mentioned there had been 6 similar occurrences in the US that were reported! The article did state that they can’t say if they were the same MCAS issues or not, nor did it state how they were recovered so take it as you will.

Mebuntu · 24-03-2019 11:39AM

If you want to know where the grounded MAX's are located this may help:-

https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/where-the-grounded-737-max-are-stored/

Shn99 · 24-03-2019 12:34PM

Software fix out
https://m.economictimes.com/news/international/world-news/fix-to-mcas-anti-stall-software-in-737-max-ready-to-go-boeing/articleshow/68541920.cms

basill · 24-03-2019 01:39PM

Not approved by FAA as yet.

cnocbui · 24-03-2019 01:42PM

Shn99 wrote: »

Software fix out
https://m.economictimes.com/news/international/world-news/fix-to-mcas-anti-stall-software-in-737-max-ready-to-go-boeing/articleshow/68541920.cms

A great epitaph for a headstone.

basill wrote: »

Not approved by FAA as yet.

Is FAA approval relevant any more?

Damien360 · 24-03-2019 01:43PM

basill wrote: »

Not approved by FAA as yet.

Considering their previous involvement with regards to self certification by manufacturers and severe lack of oversight, I wouldn't hold much faith in what the FAA pronounced about that fix. A wholesale change of policy is required and they may need to use a large stick to Boeing to regain credibility.

basill · 24-03-2019 02:33PM

Remember EASA and various other overseas regulators have stated that they are undertaking a root and branch review. Rolling out a software fix and getting the FAA to sign it off doesn't necessarily mean it will be able to fly outside the US.

Is FAA approval relevant any more?

My understanding was that the FAA has always had to give approval and this never changed. The donkey work of the certification was contracted back to Boeing and the FAA signed off based on the former demonstrating that it had fulfilled its compliance requirements. The buck still stops with the FAA. In light of the crashes I would say getting an FAA sign off may well be just a little bit harder. There is also a US inquiry going on into the FAA oversight process.

Bob24 · 24-03-2019 07:49PM

Shn99 wrote: »

Software fix out
https://m.economictimes.com/news/international/world-news/fix-to-mcas-anti-stall-software-in-737-max-ready-to-go-boeing/articleshow/68541920.cms

Also says that “the 737 MAX will be outfitted with a warning light for malfunctions in the anti-stall system, an industry source told AFP on Thursday, standardizing a feature previously sold as an optional extra”.

We were all expecting this and it probably should never have been optional in the first place, but at least they’re now doing it.

Tenger · 24-03-2019 09:04PM

NY Times front page article today lays out the history of the MAX program.
American Airlines (who were all Boeing) told Boeing in 2011 that they were about to sign an order with Airbus. Boeing scrapped their B737 replacement concept and rushed thru the MAX design to prevent losing AA as a customer.

BailMeOut · 24-03-2019 09:25PM

Tenger wrote: »

NY Times front page article today lays out the history of the MAX program.
American Airlines (who were all Boeing) told Boeing in 2011 that they were about to sign an order with Airbus. Boeing scrapped their B737 replacement concept and rushed thru the MAX design to prevent losing AA as a customer.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/23/business/boeing-737-max-crash.html

odyssey06 · 24-03-2019 09:41PM

BailMeOut wrote: »

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/23/business/boeing-737-max-crash.html

“Any designs we created could not drive any new training that required a simulator,” Mr. Ludtke said. “That was a first.”
When upgrading the cockpit with a digital display, he said, his team wanted to redesign the layout of information to give pilots more data that were easier to read. But that might have required new pilot training.
So instead, they simply recreated the decades-old gauges on the screen. “We just went from an analog presentation to a digital presentation,” Mr. Ludtke said. “There was so much opportunity to make big jumps, but the training differences held us back.”

Boeing said in a statement that the 2011 decision to build the Max had beaten out other options, including developing a new airplane.
“The decision had to offer the best value to customers, including operating economics as well as timing, which was clearly a strong factor,” the company said. “Safety is our highest priority as we design, build and support our airplanes.”

The bit about re-creating the analogue gauges on a digital display would be hilarious if 2 planes hadn't crashed.

Bob24 · 25-03-2019 09:19AM

Apparently the FAA has “tentatively approved” the fix: https://www.engadget.com/2019/03/24/faa-tentatively-approves-737-max-fix/

I’m not sure how you can tentatively approve such thing though, in my eyes either it’s approved and planes can fly with it or it’s not approved and planes can’t fly with it - nothing in between.

Ethiopian Airlines Crash/ B737MAX grounding

Comments