Ethiopian Airlines Crash/ B737MAX grounding

ZiabR · 21-03-2019 11:53AM

Deaf student wrote: »

Ethiopian Airlines Flight ET302 - Crash Animation [X-Plane 11]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=562&v=fIunpQQpzs0

Thats a great video. Thanks for sharing. MCAS asside, it seems like the 737 has some serious design flaws.

Like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

trellheim · 21-03-2019 12:13PM

MCAS asside, it seems like the 737 has some serious design flaws.

Get off it, there are over 10,000 built and its in service for 52+ years, and as I write there are over 1000 airborne right now.

lintdrummer · 21-03-2019 12:16PM

trellheim wrote: »

Get off it, there are over 10,000 built and its in service for 52+ years, and as I write there are over 1000 airborne right now.

I'd say he was referring to the Max 8.

ZiabR · 21-03-2019 12:58PM

trellheim wrote: »

Get off it, there are over 10,000 built and its in service for 52+ years, and as I write there are over 1000 airborne right now.

I was not referring to the 737 as a whole. I was making reference to the 737 MAX. Particularly around the engine size and the location. It seems that instead of bringing a new design of the 737, Boeing simply shoehorned modifications onto an ageing design.

I should add, I don't doubt for a second the all 737 models leading up to the MAX model are for the most part very very reliable and safe.

trellheim · 21-03-2019 02:00PM

I was not referring to the 737 as a whole. I was making reference to the 737 MAX

I know that, you know that, theres many who dont reading the thread, which is my point

ED E · 21-03-2019 06:48PM

News today that the lion air crew were searching frantically for an appropriate checklist in the seconds before impact.

banie01 · 21-03-2019 07:00PM

ED E wrote: »

News today that the lion air crew were searching frantically for an appropriate checklist in the seconds before impact.

I read that report yesterday and I think it has been linked earlier in the thread.

The Lion Air flight encountered the MCAS pitching issue on the flight immediately before the crashed flight that was only rectified by an experienced pilot on the flight deck.

The next day the aircraft encountered the same issue, with a different crew and despite best efforts of that crew the aircraft was lost.

A system that induces severe and unexpected control inputs that was not flagged to new pilots.
Despite aerodynamic changes that alter the flight profile of the airframe, the certification process allows the plaster of MCAS to allow NG trained crew to fly what has proven to be a dramatically different aircraft flight envelope.

The basic premise of Boeing chasing business via the cost savings of "pilot training" is going to bite them on the arse hugely!
Couple this issue with the ongoing KC-46 quality issues the USAF are encountering and I would be wary of Boeing not needing significant state intervention in the near future.

odyssey06 · 21-03-2019 07:04PM

Notwithstanding all the shortcomings in Boeing when it comes to 737 MCAS... I would have expected Lion Air to have responded more strongly to the first incident given its severity? No sharing of info between crews or investigation of the sensor fault?

Man Vs ManUre · 21-03-2019 07:34PM

banie01 wrote: »

I read that report yesterday and I think it has been linked earlier in the thread.

The Lion Air flight encountered the MCAS pitching issue on the flight immediately before the crashed flight that was only rectified by an experienced pilot on the flight deck.

The next day the aircraft encountered the same issue, with a different crew and despite best efforts of that crew the aircraft was lost.

A system that induces severe and unexpected control inputs that was not flagged to new pilots.
Despite aerodynamic changes that alter the flight profile of the airframe, the certification process allows the plaster of MCAS to allow NG trained crew to fly what has proven to be a dramatically different aircraft flight envelope.

The basic premise of Boeing chasing business via the cost savings of "pilot training" is going to bite them on the arse hugely!
Couple this issue with the ongoing KC-46 quality issues the USAF are encountering and I would be wary of Boeing not needing significant state intervention in the near future.

It seems strange if the crew on previous day/flight experienced this and managed to overcome it, that at very least it was not communicated out to all pilots of Lion air. Especially to pilots of 737 Max if they suspected it was specific to that model.
Is it a case that they resolved it before it had escalated into a big situation, by that I mean erratic movements that would have concerned passengers, that they maybe didn’t realize it could have been fatal?? Or is it a communication failing within the company or even handover to next crew??

cnocbui · 21-03-2019 08:27PM

Man Vs ManUre wrote: »

It seems strange if the crew on previous day/flight experienced this and managed to overcome it, that at very least it was not communicated out to all pilots of Lion air. Especially to pilots of 737 Max if they suspected it was specific to that model.
Is it a case that they resolved it before it had escalated into a big situation, by that I mean erratic movements that would have concerned passengers, that they maybe didn’t realize it could have been fatal?? Or is it a communication failing within the company or even handover to next crew??

The crew on the previous flight didn't resolve it, an experienced pilot in the cockpit who was a passenger and didn't have his hands full fighting the controls, made the vital suggestions to the crew as to what to do.

lintdrummer · 21-03-2019 09:09PM

Man Vs ManUre wrote: »

It seems strange if the crew on previous day/flight experienced this and managed to overcome it, that at very least it was not communicated out to all pilots of Lion air. Especially to pilots of 737 Max if they suspected it was specific to that model.
Is it a case that they resolved it before it had escalated into a big situation, by that I mean erratic movements that would have concerned passengers, that they maybe didn’t realize it could have been fatal?? Or is it a communication failing within the company or even handover to next crew??

You have to remember that when this happened the MCAS system wasn't widely known about. The company probably suspected it was an isolated incident as a result of a faulty AOA sensor, which they replaced and they didn't expect to have a repeat incident.

Shedite27 · 21-03-2019 09:27PM

Man Vs ManUre wrote: »

It seems strange if the crew on previous day/flight experienced this and managed to overcome it, that at very least it was not communicated out to all pilots of Lion air. Especially to pilots of 737 Max if they suspected it was specific to that model.
Is it a case that they resolved it before it had escalated into a big situation, by that I mean erratic movements that would have concerned passengers, that they maybe didn’t realize it could have been fatal?? Or is it a communication failing within the company or even handover to next crew??

How serious an issue would it have seemed at the time of the first flight tho? Would it have just been a "huh, oh yeah" moment or a "oh ****, thank **** you were here or we were all dead"

mickdw · 21-03-2019 09:49PM

lintdrummer wrote: »

Man Vs ManUre wrote: »

It seems strange if the crew on previous day/flight experienced this and managed to overcome it, that at very least it was not communicated out to all pilots of Lion air. Especially to pilots of 737 Max if they suspected it was specific to that model.
Is it a case that they resolved it before it had escalated into a big situation, by that I mean erratic movements that would have concerned passengers, that they maybe didn’t realize it could have been fatal?? Or is it a communication failing within the company or even handover to next crew??

You have to remember that when this happened the MCAS system wasn't widely known about. The company probably suspected it was an isolated incident as a result of a faulty AOA sensor, which they replaced and they didn't expect to have a repeat incident.

I thought i read that the lion air flight that did crash wasn't airworthy taking off due to unrepaired faults.

L1011 · 21-03-2019 10:26PM

mickdw wrote: »

I thought i read that the lion air flight that did crash wasn't airworthy taking off due to unrepaired faults.

It wasn't airworthy but the fault it had shouldn't have caused it to crash.

coastwatch · 21-03-2019 10:29PM

Another novice here. Would this crash have happened if the flight was on Autopilot? Does the Autopilot system use the same sensors (faulty) as the MCAS?
From what I have read, the MCAS only activates when autopilot is off.

murphaph · 21-03-2019 11:07PM

funkey_monkey wrote: »

What is the correct story with Ethiopian airlines and a 737 Max simulator.
Where there none in the industry or were there none at Ethiopian?

I believe there are still none anywhere.

kippy · 21-03-2019 11:14PM

Shedite27 wrote: »

How serious an issue would it have seemed at the time of the first flight tho? Would it have just been a "huh, oh yeah" moment or a "oh ****, thank **** you were here or we were all dead"

Its hard to know but in life, every day, we are only a split second away from death. A series of unfortunate events can very easily lead us to being in the wrong place at the wrong time, or in this case a series of very fortunate events led the right person to being in the right place at the right time to save that plane and all aboard. As it was the first time the issue had occurred its seriousness may have been disregarded as it was fixed relatively easily.
I don't blame the people involved in that first occurance for the first crash however I do believe Boeing and the authorities have a major question to answer on the first crash and more so on the second crash.

mickdw · 21-03-2019 11:17PM

L1011 wrote: »

mickdw wrote: »

I thought i read that the lion air flight that did crash wasn't airworthy taking off due to unrepaired faults.

It wasn't airworthy but the fault it had shouldn't have caused it to crash.

Shouldn't have caused it to crash based on who's opinion?
By all accounts, the strange self certification process pushed this system to a lower tier in terms of being safety critical allowing it to be implemented with minimal levels of redundancy.
Looking at it from that perspective, it could be said it shouldn't crash the plane but knowing the abilities of that system which appear much more powerful than the design criteria would have stated originally, it very much can crash the plane and has done, twice.

Jeff2 · 21-03-2019 11:27PM

murphaph wrote: »

I believe there are still none anywhere.

None for the max just the 737.

So none would have a simulation of the scenario that happened.

The loin air problem the day before the crash was only saved because there was a pilot flying on the plane as a passenger and was in the cockpit and figured out what to do other wise it would likely have crashed that day.

Edit: this is the crux of it.
Bowing could get away with changing a planes engines and position of them plus length but flying it by pilots trained to fly the older model if they downplayed the changes.

The tale wing could move to correct things the computer though were wrong without the pilot know what was going on.
And on top of that if could keep doing it automatically while the pilot tries to correct it.

Totally mad situation to be in.

cnocbui · 21-03-2019 11:49PM

mickdw wrote: »

Shouldn't have caused it to crash based on who's opinion?
By all accounts, the strange self certification process pushed this system to a lower tier in terms of being safety critical allowing it to be implemented with minimal levels of redundancy.
Looking at it from that perspective, it could be said it shouldn't crash the plane but knowing the abilities of that system which appear much more powerful than the design criteria would have stated originally, it very much can crash the plane and has done, twice.

It shouldn't have crashed the plane from a number of perspectives.

1) The Pilots should have been briefed on the system
2) Disengaging the Stabiliser Trim would have prevented the crash
3) Lowering the flaps 10° would have disengaged the MCAS

So, in the event of a malfunctioning MCAS, it can be neutralized, so no need for it to cause the plane to crash.

Captain_Crash · 22-03-2019 09:16AM

Jeff2 wrote: »

None for the max just the 737

The MAX simulator very much does exist

https://www.instagram.com/p/BvH3BqtH8vw/

banie01 · 22-03-2019 10:31AM

The slew of cancellations looks to have started!
Garuda are exploring options on cancelling 49 aircraft.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47662967

This could really dent Boeing. Similar to Comet and DC10 the 737MAX brand could well be irrecoveribly tainted by this no matter how well Boeing deal with the issue(Not great to date).
Confidence in certification and in Boeing seems well and truly shot!

Captain_Crash · 22-03-2019 10:54AM

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OSI wrote: »

There are, but Boeing specifically stated that pilots don't need training on it if they've already flown other 737s and supposedly the simulator can't even simulate the MCAS issues.

I was more replying to the belief that there are no MAX simulators, and clarifying that they do exist. You are correct that Boeing say you don't need to fly a MAX sim in the differences training programme, and that the MAX sims do not recreate the AOA issue causing incorrect MCAS inputs.

Roger_007 · 22-03-2019 11:03AM

banie01 wrote: »

The slew of cancellations looks to have started!
Garuda are exploring options on cancelling 49 aircraft.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47662967

This could really dent Boeing. Similar to Comet and DC10 the 737MAX brand could well be irrecoveribly tainted by this no matter how well Boeing deal with the issue(Not great to date).
Confidence in certification and in Boeing seems well and truly shot!

What airlines have to look at is the increased public awareness of what make and model of aircraft they would be flying in. Once an aircraft type gets a bad reputation, (deserved or otherwise), enough people will be put off flying in it to make airlines think again about buying it.
Boeing will have to rename the type as something else. The MAX designation is now toxic.

cnocbui · 22-03-2019 11:21AM

odyssey06 wrote: »

Notwithstanding all the shortcomings in Boeing when it comes to 737 MCAS... I would have expected Lion Air to have responded more strongly to the first incident given its severity? No sharing of info between crews or investigation of the sensor fault?

I wouldn't be surprised if an MCAS simulation update for the 737 Max in X-Plane 11 didn't come out before Boeing has one.

billy few mates · 22-03-2019 12:47PM

coastwatch wrote: »

Another novice here. Would this crash have happened if the flight was on Autopilot? Does the Autopilot system use the same sensors (faulty) as the MCAS?
From what I have read, the MCAS only activates when autopilot is off.

MCAS is only active in manual flight so it wouldn't have happened if the autopilot was engaged. There are three ways to trim the aircraft, manually by rotating the trim wheel, electrically by operating the pickle switches on either control column and the third way is via the autopilot where the FCCs automatically trim the aircraft through a separate trim servo mounted on the screwjack beside the normal electric trim servo.
With the autopilot engaged it's normal to see the trim wheels rotate as the autopilot trims the aircraft. In manual flight the only time they would see the trim wheels turning is if they're trimming the aircraft themselves via the trim switches or by manually winding the trim wheel.
If the crew knew nothing about MCAS and they saw the trim wheels turning in manual flight they'd naturally assume it was stabiliser runaway.
This is almost exactly the same as what happened in the early days of the 737 classic when crews transitioning from the -200s saw speed trim operating for the first time when they took off and the ST system briefly applied a 'burst' of stab trim to trim the aircraft which they weren't expecting and incorrectly reported as stabiliser runaway.
But as we now know MCAS has a lot more authority over the aircraft than ST...

coastwatch · 22-03-2019 05:39PM

Thanks for the very informative reply

gctest50 · 22-03-2019 07:56PM

OSI wrote: »

There are, but Boeing specifically stated that pilots don't need training on it if they've already flown other 737s and supposedly the simulator can't even simulate the MCAS issues.

And that was the problem, they weren't really pilots, more like three quarter programmed androids

how could they miss this kinda thing ?

the spinning wheel of death must be the most obvious thing surely ?

how could they miss these ?

right beside the spinning wheels of death :

cnocbui · 22-03-2019 08:21PM

Everyone using hindsight is an expert.

odyssey06 · 22-03-2019 08:33PM

gctest50 wrote: »

And that was the problem, they weren't really pilots, more like three quarter programmed androids ... how could they miss this kinda thing ?

Right. How could Boeing miss all the things they missed???
Sure maybe more experienced better trained pilots would have saved the day, but why the **** should they be having to save the day from a dangerously designed aircraft? This isn't wartime and they are rushing out a new plane with improved capabilities to keep up with an arms race.

If only Boeing hadn't used a single sensor, instead of a dual sensor, calibrated on the deck.
If only Boeing had stuck to the original capabilities of the MCAS they submitted to the FAA.
If only there was some pilot certification for variants of an aircraft, without having to go through full recertification, then maybe Boeing would have done the obvious things like putting how to disable MCAS into simulators and the flight manual; instead of engaging into a gigantic scam.
If only the LION air crew who had to rely on a passenger pilot to disable MCAS had mentioned something to the next crew.
If only LION air had grounded the plane after the first incident and demanded answers from Boeing.
If only Boeing hadn't waited for a second one of their planes to crash and kill everyone on board before issuing a software update for MCAS.

If only the authorities had grounded the 737 NG after the first crash when it was obvious it was an accident waiting to happen and needlessly kill hundreds of people.

If only Boeing could still design a safe plane and be honest about what they have done.

Ethiopian Airlines Crash/ B737MAX grounding

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