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Madeleine McCann

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    Eddie reacted to cadaver scent, the dog has no motive.
    Yeah - nobody is saying that the dog has any dog in the fight.
    But, as I've said, again and again, the investigators followed up on the dog's indication, collected samples, had them tested and they came up blank.

    It was a false positive.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,130 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    Eddie reacted to cadaver scent, the dog has no motive.

    What motive did Clever Hans have? http://skepdic.com/cleverhans.html

    You don't actually know what the dogs reacted to.
    When cadaver dogs were first scientifically evaluated in the 90s their success rate in one study was only 57%, that is just a hair above chance. Improvements in training helped cut down on handler-induced false positives, where the dog gave a positive reading because its handler unconsciously gave the dog cues that they thought the location was right.
    https://deathscent.com/2016/03/17/emerging-research-on-the-scent-of-death/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,310 ✭✭✭micks_address


    615 I think they left kids club.. the mccanns joined dinner party at 830.. also bizarrely the hotel had written on the restaurant reservation book which was visible in reception that the 830 block booking each evening at that table was due to the kids being left alone each night in appartment

    The note with the reservation was no more bizarre than that of the group whom the booking was for. Has an explanation ever been sought as to why the booking made reference to the kids being alone. Surprised Scotland yard or other UK police officers never quired it or if they did why no mention. I mention the UK police as it seems very few here will accept any competence existed in either the local police or PJ officers.

    Apparently the restaurant didn't take bookings but made an exception because of the size of the group and my guess is they also asked for it because the kids were being left alone. It was probably innocent note in the book to help justify booking but who knows seen it


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    cnocbui wrote:
    You don't actually know what the dogs reacted to.


    To what he was trained to react too perhaps? The other dog was trained for blood detection. The McCanns spent alot of money with a US legal firm to the discredit the dogs reaction. Seems strange when nothing was found.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,130 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    To what he was trained to react too perhaps? The other dog was trained for blood detection. The McCanns spent alot of money with a US legal firm to the discredit the dogs reaction. Seems strange when nothing was found.

    Just as possible the dog was reacting to Grimes pointing out where he wanted a signal from them.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    Boom_Bap wrote:
    My understanding that Smith recognised the stance/demeanor/posture rather than the people. I have some belief in this as I would personally recognise people by how the walk or some sort of mannerism.


    I'm a runner and take part in a lot of events I can recognise others I know just by their gait and movement without seeing their face.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    Seems strange when nothing was found.
    Exactly.

    Remind me - why are people putting so much store in a false positive?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    cnocbui wrote:
    Just as possible the dog was reacting to Grimes pointing out where he wanted a signal from them.


    Sorry I don't buy that, that would suggest that Grimes is trying to manipulate the dogs for his reasons. The dogs and Grimes at the time were highly experienced . If you are casting doubt on Grimes I think it's only fair you offer a reason for this.


  • Moderators, Music Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,740 Mod ✭✭✭✭Boom_Bap


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    Also, I don't know why the dog handler would want to manipulate the results?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    Boom_Bap wrote:
    Also, I don't know why the dog handler would want to manipulate the results?


    No idea, why would he risk his reputation and that of his team. Curious suggestion tbh.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,217 ✭✭✭maximoose


    Phoebas wrote: »
    But, as I've said, again and again, the investigators followed up on the dog's indication, collected samples, had them tested and they came up blank.

    It was a false positive.

    It was not a false positive as you keep saying, again and again - the sample was too complex for them to determine either way.
    Within the DNA profile of Madeleine McCann there are 20 DNA components represented by 19 peaks on a chart. ... Of these 19 components 15 are present within the result from this item; there are 37 components in total. There are 37 components because there are at least 3 contributors; but there could be up to five contributors. In my opinion therefore this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation/inclusion. ... We cannot answer the question: Is the match genuine, or is it a chance match

    As yer man Gamble and the handler said in the doc, DNA technology is improving every year. Whether or not it'll ever show anything further on this case, who knows.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 491 ✭✭B_ecke_r


    Something Else
    a respected forensics expert and his dogs are being brought into doubt while everyone defends the vile parents who leave their 3 young children alone in a foreign country.

    hmmm


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,462 ✭✭✭SteM


    I'm a runner and take part in a lot of events I can recognise others I know just by their gait and movement without seeing their face.

    Not a runner you saw for a couple of minutes 5 months ago though surely? That's basically what Smith is saying.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,310 ✭✭✭micks_address


    maximoose wrote: »
    Phoebas wrote: »
    But, as I've said, again and again, the investigators followed up on the dog's indication, collected samples, had them tested and they came up blank.

    It was a false positive.

    It was not a false positive as you keep saying, again and again - the sample was too complex for them to determine either way.
    Within the DNA profile of Madeleine McCann there are 20 DNA components represented by 19 peaks on a chart. ... Of these 19 components 15 are present within the result from this item; there are 37 components in total. There are 37 components because there are at least 3 contributors; but there could be up to five contributors. In my opinion therefore this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation/inclusion. ... We cannot answer the question: Is the match genuine, or is it a chance match

    As yer man Gamble and the handler said in the doc, DNA technology is improving every year. Whether or not it'll ever show anything further on this case, who knows.
    The samples contained at least three people's dna.. as Madeline's dna would have been mostly the same as her mother and father it made it impossible to distinguish..

    It's highly probable the parents dna was in the boot of the hire car just from taking stuff in and out buggy etc..


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    SteM wrote:
    Not a runner you saw for a couple of minutes 5 months ago though surely? That's basically what Smith is saying.


    Actually I can recognise people from their gait from months ago if something strikes me at the time as usual or just quirky. Seeing them moving again in the same way triggers the memory. No reason why the same can't apply to Smith. I can relate to Smith's claim because of my experience. That's why I don't dismiss his account so easily. Although he might still be wrong but I would give him the benefit of the doubt.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,192 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    Something Else
    615 I think they left kids club.. the mccanns joined dinner party at 830.. also bizarrely the hotel had written on the restaurant reservation book which was visible in reception that the 830 block booking each evening at that table was due to the kids being left alone each night in appartment

    That's also suspicious. All the staff working there must have known this. They must have found it abhorrent, and spat in the tapas many times.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,130 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    Boom_Bap wrote: »
    Also, I don't know why the dog handler would want to manipulate the results?

    Because he was earning a living by hiring out his and the dog's services? Grimes made a business out of the dogs and was subsequently employed in the Haut de la Garenne investigation on Jersey, for which he was well paid. I presume he was paid in the Shannon Mathews case as well. It's pretty obvious that the more times his dogs provide positive responses - reported loudly by the media - the more work he was likely to get in future. All three cases involved his dogs providing positive responses and no bodies being found.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,462 ✭✭✭SteM


    Actually I can recognise people from their gait from months ago if something strikes me at the time as usual or just quirky.

    Yeah, that's pretty much the reply I expected alright.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,732 ✭✭✭scamalert


    why did they never agree to do reconstruction of the days events even thou - in documentary most said it would incriminate them but surely if they wanted questions they could of done it once they were cleared of any charges.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    maximoose wrote: »
    It was not a false positive as you keep saying, again and again - the sample was too complex for them to determine either way.
    Of course it was a false positive. The dog indicated one thing. The follow up examination didn't.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    SteM wrote:
    Yeah, that's pretty much the reply I expected alright.


    So you don't believe me is that what you are implying by your response?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,130 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    scamalert wrote: »
    why did they never agree to do reconstruction of the days events even thou - in documentary most said it would incriminate them but surely if they wanted questions they could of done it once they were cleared of any charges.

    When did the PJ first request or suggest a reconstruction?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 340 ✭✭Calltocall


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    I don't think he gave an exact time other than to say around 10. He came forward after he saw GMcC descend the steps of the plane and claimed he recognised as the man he saw in the street with the child. Do you think he had something to gain by coming forward?

    Just in relation to this sighting, which I believe to be the key piece of information to support an abduction purely because this individual has never come forward, I believe the sighting to have happened, the Portuguese police took three detailed statements from members of the Smith Family, they all saw the same thing and noted the reseamblance to Madeleine McCann, now there has been confusion around who mr smith saw, as he came forward at a later date and said he believed with good probability that it was G McCann however in their original statements they all put the individual they saw between 5 7 & 5 9 wheras G McCann is 6 1, also to note G McCann was placed at the Apartments at 10pm so how could he be in two places at once also I accept that timelines could move a few minutes either side of 10 but if it was him he would almost have to be running to stash the child somewhere and then run back to the apartments without anybody noticing, it doesn’t add and seems highly unlikely, in my opinion I say there was a high probability that child was Madeleine but the man carrying her wasn’t her father.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    cnocbui wrote:
    Because he was earning a living by hiring out his and the dog's services? Grimes made a business out of the dogs and was subsequently employed in the Haut de la Garenne investigation on Jersey, for which he was well paid. I presume he was paid in the Shannon Mathews case as well. It's pretty obvious that the more times his dogs provide positive responses - reported loudly by the media - the more work he was likely to get in future. All three cases involved his dogs providing positive responses and no bodies being found.


    At the time of Jersey Eddie was no longer licensed as a cadaver dog it was also a few years later. When dogs were requested in Portugal the British Police suggested the Portuguese authority use Grimes and his team. It seems the Police respected his and his dogs abilities enough to recommend them. Grimes had plenty of work at the time. You still didn't answer the question I asked by the way.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    cnocbui wrote:
    When did the PJ first request or suggest a reconstruction?


    Does it matter as Gerry and Kate refused to take part, that's well documented.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    Calltocall wrote:
    Just in relation to this sighting, which I believe to be the key piece of information to support an abduction purely because this individual has never come forward, I believe the sighting to have happened, the Portuguese police took three detailed statements from members of the Smith Family, they all saw the same thing and noted the reseamblance to Madeleine McCann, now there has been confusion around who mr smith saw, as he came forward at a later date and said he believed with good probability that it was G McCann however in their original statements they all put the individual they saw between 5 7 & 5 9 wheras G McCann is 6 1, also to note G McCann was placed at the Apartments at 10pm so how could he be in two places at once also I accept that timelines could move a few minutes either side of 10 but if it was him he would almost have to be running to stash the child somewhere and then run back to the apartments without anybody noticing, it doesn’t add and seems highly unlikely, in my opinion I say there was a high probability that child was Madeleine but the man carrying her wasn’t her father.

    So you believe the sighting but not that M Smith saw G McCann. He came forward at a later date after seeing G McC descend from the plane and said that person he saw that night and G McCann were most likely the person he saw based on movement and demeanor.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,192 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    Something Else
    I believe Smith saw McCann that night. McCann was walking down a steep hill carrying a child at the time, seeing him walking down the stairs of a plane carrying a child would have reproduced the same gait. That's why it took him a long time to connect the dots.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,278 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    cgcsb wrote: »
    I believe Smith saw McCann that night. McCann was walking down a steep hill carrying a child at the time, seeing him walking down the stairs of a plane carrying a child would have reproduced the same gait. That's why it took him a long time to connect the dots.

    Its not steep there just a mild incline towards the sea

    Sorry edit . I see it was on steps in P da L that he saw the man


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,130 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    cnocbui wrote: »
    Because he was earning a living by hiring out his and the dog's services? Grimes made a business out of the dogs and was subsequently employed in the Haut de la Garenne investigation on Jersey, for which he was well paid. I presume he was paid in the Shannon Mathews case as well. It's pretty obvious that the more times his dogs provide positive responses - reported loudly by the media - the more work he was likely to get in future. All three cases involved his dogs providing positive responses and no bodies being found.
    At the time of Jersey Eddie was no longer licensed as a cadaver dog it was also a few years later. When dogs were requested in Portugal the British Police suggested the Portuguese authority use Grimes and his team. It seems the Police respected his and his dogs abilities enough to recommend them. Grimes had plenty of work at the time. You still didn't answer the question I asked by the way.

    Yes I did, I have quoted it. You don't find it odd that Eddie was used on Jersey, even though he was no longer licensed? If the following doesn't highlite that Grimes was in it for the money, then I don't know what would. So much for the esteemed reputation you claim he has. Was this high regard why eddie and Kella's licenses weren't renewed?
    But it has come to light that he did not have a UK licence for the job. Grime said this did not matter as Jersey is not in the UK.

    Eddie the sniffer dog - the animal that had supposedly found the 'scent of death' in the Portuguese flat where Madeleine McCann disappeared - no longer had a licence for UK police forensic work when Harper started using him in Jersey. Eddie, whose owner, Martin Grime, was paid £93,600 for less than five months' work, triggered the first excavations by barking at a spot where Harper's team then unearthed what was claimed to be part of a child's skull. In fact, as a Kew Gardens expert has now confirmed, it was a piece of coconut shell.
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1217863/Bungled-Jersey-child-abuse-probe-branded-20million-shambles.html


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    cnocbui wrote:
    Yes I did, I have quoted it. You don't find it odd that Eddie was used on Jersey, even though he was no longer licensed? If the following doesn't highlite that Grimes was in it for the money, then I don't know what would. So much for the esteemed reputation you claim he has. Was this high regard why eddie and Kella's licenses weren't renewed?


    I don't claim he has a high esteemed although in 2007 the UK police thought highly of his reputation and that if his dogs, I asked why would he risk his reputation . I stated he and his team were highly experienced. Lastly if you go back far enough in this thread I was the one who pointed out that Eddie was no longer licenced as a cadaver dog when he was brought to Jersey. He was though in 2007 in Portugal. The UK police suggested Grimes and his team to the Portuguese authorities when the request for sniffer dogs was mentioned so I can only imagine the Police had respect for both Grimes and his dogs.


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