Ethiopian Airlines Crash/ B737MAX grounding

murphaph · 19-03-2019 08:17PM

But so far at least statistics show the NG to be perfectly safe, right?

user1842 · 19-03-2019 08:25PM

murphaph wrote: »

But so far at least statistics show the NG to be perfectly safe, right?

I don't know but I would worry that 737ng's will not age well especially if non conforming structural parts were used. They also may not be as safe in a crash situation (if that actually matters).

I suppose Boeing had no other option but to deny as they could not really replace all the affected 737ng's. There is no way to fix these issues....

Comhrá · 19-03-2019 08:28PM

Air Canada’s MAXs now grounded until at least July 1st.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/business/air-canada-grounds-its-boeing-max-8-fleet-until-july-1-1.4342096

(Repost of Shn99's post in the Shannon Airport thread)

trellheim · 19-03-2019 08:31PM

More news: USDOT OIG will audit FAA certification of Boeing 737 MAX. Story coming @Reuters

https://twitter.com/davidshepardson/status/1108086688063078402

devnull · 19-03-2019 08:33PM

user1842 wrote: »

Don't Ryanair fly the 737ng? That documentary is scary if it is true. I would think twice about flying on Boeing now. I always wondered why the Turkish airlines plane in the Amsterdam accident broke up so easily.

Huge number of airlines around the world fly the 737ng, so the chances are that if you stop flying the 737ng you are going to really limit your choices when it comes to flights.

Wheeliebin30 · 19-03-2019 08:37PM

So the 737NG is now unsafe????

Shn99 · 19-03-2019 08:44PM

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

So the 737NG is now unsafe????

Says who?

cnocbui · 19-03-2019 08:47PM

Shn99 wrote: »

Says who?

The documentary linked above (SBS) with whistle-blowing ex Boeing workers saying so.

trellheim · 19-03-2019 08:47PM

Says who?

I have not seen anything to say the NG is unsafe.

STB. · 19-03-2019 09:15PM

Shn99 wrote: »

Says who?

Says Whistleblowers who worked for Boeing, subsequently buried by the judicial system in the US.

Read the posts before your own two words. THere is a documentary carried put by Tim Tate. If you dont want to watch that, read this.

Here are the Service Difficulty Reports (SDRs) obtained from the FAA at the time.

trellheim wrote: »

I have not seen anything to say the NG is unsafe.

I hope you are not depending on the FAA to tell you. Seems that the culture is self certification by stock exchange companies.

lintdrummer · 19-03-2019 09:22PM

trellheim wrote: »

I have not seen anything to say the NG is unsafe.

If the video is to be believed then it's only a matter of time before metal fatigue causes an incident on a 737NG. If true, allegations of poorly produced, ill fitting frames being re-drilled and beaten into submission are concerning. This is primary structure and it's been observed to be prematurely corroding and cracking.

It may lead to nothing worse than a loss of pressure at altitude, but if it's true then I'd be more concerned about the attitude of Boeing management to the quality of it's products.

Inquitus · 19-03-2019 09:36PM

They are going to audit the 737 Certification

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ethiopian-airline-chao/us-transportation-chief-seeks-audit-of-boeing-737-max-certification-idUSKCN1R02GH

U.S. Transportation Secretary Elaine Chao said on Tuesday she had asked the department’s inspector general to audit the Federal Aviation Administration’s certification of the Boeing 737 MAX after two fatal crashes involving the jet since October.

Chao said in her memo that the audit is to “assist the FAA in ensuring that its safety procedures are implemented effectively.” The inspector general’s office and Boeing did not immediately comment on Tuesday.

The EASA and Canada also taking a look into the certification

The European Union’s aviation safety agency, EASA, has also vowed to take a deeper investigation into how the MAX aircraft was certified.

“We will not allow the aircraft to fly if we have not found acceptable answers to all our questions,” EASA Executive Director Patrick Ky told an EU parliament committee hearing. “This is a personal guarantee that I make in front of you,” he added.

memorandum-secretary-audit-certification-boeing-737-max8-2012-2017.png?w=900&ssl=1

Bob24 · 19-03-2019 10:23PM

Inquitus wrote: »

They are going to audit the 737 Certification

Can this take long? And if yes what happens to new planes which are being completed and supposed be delivered to airlines while the Max is grounded?

.G. · 19-03-2019 11:28PM

Regarding that video, it was made in 2010. All the crashes it listed weren in 8 year old aircraft and happened before 2010. Is it likely that company is still making parts for the NG and how old would Ryanair NGs be?

I've looked NG crashes (on Wikipedia, so pinch of salt) since then and none would seem to ne likely attributed to the problems raised in that video.

STB. · 20-03-2019 12:00AM

superg wrote: »

Regarding that video, it was made in 2010. All the crashes it listed weren in 8 year old aircraft and happened before 2010. Is it likely that company is still making parts for the NG and how old would Ryanair NGs be?

I've looked NG crashes (on Wikipedia, so pinch of salt) since then and none would seem to ne likely attributed to the problems raised in that video.

The case involved defective parts parts manufactured between 1994 and 2002. It took 10 years to get the case heard!

Ducommon, the contracted company had won the contract based on using a computer based manufacturing system to produce Primary Structural Elements - bearstraps and chords.

Such was the rate of problems in assembly (part didnt fit, were redrilled - painted over), that an auditing team from Boeing took a trip out to the contracted company and discovered they were using magic markers and angle grinders. These are the claims of Boeing's then purchasing staff.

Same company is producing parts for the NGs, Max and military.

The Dept of Transport did an audit in 2012 of Boeing. It didn't go very far other than to say there was a culture of pressurized certification by contracted safety engineers. 7 years later........ here we are again. Another Audit.

The question that many might be asking is why Ethiopian Air decided to go to BEA, rather than the FAA?

Following the publication of the Lion Air report, a journalist from the Seattle Times contacted the FAA and Boeing regarding a story they were running from whistleblowers that highlighted serious safety issues around the Max.

Boeing and the FAA said the Max was safe and didn't ground them.

11 days later the Ethiopian Airways plane went down.

The FAA and Boeing continued with their position until they were forced by the international community to change their tune.

I never knew any of this until I started reading. I wish I knew none of it. Most people take for granted that safety comes first.

Jeff2 · 20-03-2019 02:24AM

I'v posted this guys video once but he is very infomitive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlinocVHpzk

cnocbui · 20-03-2019 11:11AM

Pilot who hitched a ride saved Boeing 737 Max a day before it crashed
By Alan Levin and Harry Suhartono
March 20, 2019 — 1.32pm

As the Lion Air crew fought to control their diving Boeing 737 Max 8 jet, they got help from an unexpected source: an off-duty pilot who happened to be riding in the cockpit.

That extra pilot, who was seated in the cockpit jumpseat, correctly diagnosed the problem and told the crew how to disable a malfunctioning flight-control system and save the plane, according to two people familiar with Indonesia's investigation.

The next day, under command of a different crew facing what investigators said was an identical malfunction, the jetliner crashed into the Java Sea killing all 189 aboard.

https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/pilot-who-hitched-a-ride-saved-boeing-737-max-a-day-before-it-crashed-20190320-p515sq.html

Also in that article was this extraordinary bit of victim blaming:

"After this horrific Lion Air accident, you'd think that everyone flying this airplane would know that's how you turn this off," said Steve Wallace, the former director of the US Federal Aviation Administration's accident investigation branch.

Maybe not everyone flying the plane has a perfect grasp of English? I have listened in on Malaysian Airlines pilots who couldn't understand simple ATC queries, even when repeated about eight times and rephrased several.

Nijmegen · 20-03-2019 11:22AM

cnocbui wrote: »

https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/pilot-who-hitched-a-ride-saved-boeing-737-max-a-day-before-it-crashed-20190320-p515sq.html

Also in that article was this extraordinary bit of victim blaming:

Maybe not everyone flying the plane has a perfect grasp of English? I have listened in on Malaysian Airlines pilots who couldn't understand simple ATC queries, even when repeated about eight times and rephrased several.

One recalls the investigation after US Air 1549, when 7 of 13 returns to LaGuardia were successful in the sim - So long as the pilots, well briefed on what was about to happen and what they had to do next, started their return immediately. Life's a lot different when a novel problem is thrown at you just after takeoff on an issue that you might know about, if you studiously read every story written about your aircraft type in detail.

The NTSB used flight simulators to test the possibility that the flight could have returned safely to LaGuardia or diverted to Teterboro; only seven of the thirteen simulated returns to La Guardia succeeded, and only one of the two to Teterboro. Furthermore, the NTSB report called these simulations unrealistic: "The immediate turn made by the pilots during the simulations did not reflect or account for real-world considerations." A further simulation, conducted with the pilot delayed by 35 seconds, crashed.

murphaph · 20-03-2019 11:24AM

That's an incredible statement by Wallace. After this horrific crash you'd think the FAA and Boeing would have grounded these aircraft and insisted on a modification to MCAS to use 2 inputs at least and also to stop resetting itself until the stab has moved to the hard stop. Outrageous stuff. He knows they completely dropped the ball on this.

murphaph · 20-03-2019 11:36AM

If metal fatigue could become a problem on older 737ng's, could Ryanair be affected or are they selling the aircraft young enough to likely avoid this showing up on their aircraft? I'm actually considering switching to EI for our flights home from Berlin even though the flight times are not as convenient as FR. I don't want to overreact however and the ng seems safe so far. Have there actually been any incidents of catastrophic metal fatigue on these older ng aircraft? I don't think so, right?

It's just a bit unnerving the thoughts of my whole family getting on a Boeing 737 (or anything) when we now know that the certification process has focused too much on speed and not enough on thoroughness. The question is, how far back does this culture go....

I always felt that the FAA and NTSB and Boeing could be trusted implicitly with safety critical stuff. We knew that crashes were investigated and the lessons learned and applied to prevent the same issue ever causing another crash. Don't know that I could trust them any more. I just hope things are better at EASA/Airbus.

trellheim · 20-03-2019 11:40AM

Much as I am angry with lots of things re Aviation, I think if the NG was unsafe we would very quickly find out; scaremongering like you find on here is just putting it up people and scaring them. . If people have real worries take it to the IAA and ring them straight away.

murphaph · 20-03-2019 12:23PM

I don't know if that was aimed at me but just in case it was I'd like to state that I'm not scaremongering.

I'm sure if a member of the public like me had informed the IAA a month ago that they thought there was an issue in the Max that made it unsafe, the IAA would have filed the report under "crazy". As members of the flying public the only thing we can do is to make a decision to fly on a given aircraft or not.

murphaph · 20-03-2019 01:05PM

Interesting article (sorry if already posted):

"The thing that concerns me most is… that its two years since this plane was introduced and there is still no simulator," Hall says. "I certainly hope this plane isn't returned to service until there is a simulator."

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/analysis-737-max-crashes-fuel-longstanding-safety-c-456772/

Snake Plisken · 20-03-2019 01:14PM

Did Ryanair get to the cause of the depressurization on the flight to Croatia last Summer?
https://www.thejournal.ie/ryanair-diverted-frankfurt-4127334-Jul2018/

plodder · 20-03-2019 01:31PM

murphaph wrote: »

Interesting article (sorry if already posted):

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/analysis-737-max-crashes-fuel-longstanding-safety-c-456772/

What about this?

Some pilot groups say pilot experience requirements have loosened in some parts of the world, even while tightening in the USA.

They cite the creation in 2006 by ICAO of a new pilot license called the MPL, or "multi-crew pilot license".

That license has no firm cockpit-hour minimums. Rather, holders must have 240h of time either in a simulator or in an actual cockpit. ICAO does not specify the mix, though holders must have completed enough cockpit time to have received a private pilot license.

jon1981 · 20-03-2019 01:49PM

Frightening how simply this disaster played out.

https://news.sky.com/story/boeing-737-max-pilots-scoured-manual-in-minutes-before-lion-air-crash-in-indonesia-11670763

For nine minutes, the jet warned pilots it was in a stall - meaning it could not generate lift and keep flying - and pushed the nose down in response.

Although the captain fought to continue climbing, the computer incorrectly sensed a stall and continued to push the nose down.

Previously, it emerged that a different crew on the same Boeing 737 MAX encountered similar problems a night before the crash, but had managed to solve the issue after running through three checklists.

Two similar incidents and two very different outcomes.

In the seconds leading up to the crash, the Indian-born captain was silent, while the Indonesian first officer said "Allahu Akbar" - or "God is greatest" - a common phrase used to express excitement, praise, distress or shock.

Composure facing imminent death ... can only imagine the chaos in the cabin (assuming the passengers were aware of what was playing out)

trellheim · 20-03-2019 02:00PM

If you see an aircraft out there on the apron in your airlines livery how - for example - are you going to know if its a Max or NG unless you know your aircraft or can Google the tail number

If you get on an EI shorthaul most people arent not going to know or complain about a 321 vs a 320

user1842 · 20-03-2019 02:01PM

trellheim wrote: »

If you see an aircraft out there on the apron in your airlines livery how - for example - are you going to know if its a Max or NG unless you know your aircraft or can Google the tail number

If you get on an EI shorthaul most people arent not going to know or complain about a 321 vs a 320

Wing tips are different between the NG and Max.

jon1981 · 20-03-2019 02:02PM

Starting to wish I didn't have to fly so much with Work. :eek:

user1842 · 20-03-2019 02:03PM

jon1981 wrote: »

Starting to wish I didn't have to fly so much with Work. :eek:

It is still the safest way to travel. The current Boeing issues are concerning though. I really hope there are not similar issues with AirBus.

Ethiopian Airlines Crash/ B737MAX grounding

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