Are electricity costs due to shoot up in about 10 years time?

whisky_galore · 17-03-2019 11:45PM

zapitastas wrote: »

As long as they don't use the same building firm that was involved with the national aquatic centre

Probably using same tendering process as the Children's Hospital...

Overheal · 17-03-2019 11:48PM

Victor wrote: »

Solar thermal for domestic hot water is decent enough and OKish for photo-voltaic.

Gonna depend on your break-evens. Had to do a project on solar water heating - spreadsheet is around here somewhere. Very latitude and initial-cost dependent.

Infini · 17-03-2019 11:50PM

It would be highly unlikely that any kind of fission Nuclear Reactor would be approved here unless we were seriously short on power, too, local opposition would be off the scale too and too many risks and Fukushima a few years ago didnt do the industry any favours. There's also the whole waste issue to deal with as well. Likely the only kind of Nuclear reactor's well ever see on this island would likely be Fusion one's should they eventually develop one that's commercially viable. Besides we got a big ass ocean we can milk for cash all around us!

antoinolachtnai · 18-03-2019 08:26AM

Infini wrote: »

It would be highly unlikely that any kind of fission Nuclear Reactor would be approved here unless we were seriously short on power, too, local opposition would be off the scale too and too many risks and Fukushima a few years ago didnt do the industry any favours. There's also the whole waste issue to deal with as well. Likely the only kind of Nuclear reactor's well ever see on this island would likely be Fusion one's should they eventually develop one that's commercially viable. Besides we got a big ass ocean we can milk for cash all around us!

It would be wrong to think that electricity bills would fall in the short or medium term if there were a breakthrough like this.

When you hear talk about cheap or free electricity it in fact means electricity with a small incremental cost. However, you still need to make a massive upfront investment to build these new technologies and this cost has to be passed on in some form.

cnocbui · 18-03-2019 11:57AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I do and here's today's chart of solar generated (blue) and exported (Green, given away for free!)

How long from installation till it has paid for itself? In Oz the break even period for solar is about 5-7 years so here it's going to be 10-14 years here, given half the annual sunshine in Dublin vs Sydney? The lifespan of a PV installation is 25 years so you will only be in profit for half the lifespan.

That graph seems to show that when clouds are overhead you go from 3.5 KWh to 0.5 - 0.6? So on overcast days you are generating around 0.6 KWh for maybe 5 hours at this time of year, and a lot less for the other 7? So maybe 4-5 KW in a day. With an EV with a 30 Kw battery it would take 6 days to charge it's battery 80%?

Dublin gets 1424 hours of sunshine annually out of a theoretical 4380, meaning that for 67% of the daylight hours in a year your solar panels are producing just 13.5% of their potential. Ireland just doesn't seem a place where Solar anything makes any sense.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 18-03-2019 12:00PM

This link says Boston, Seattle and Portland are good places for solar.

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/02/08/solar-panels-work-cloudy-days-just-less-effectively/

cnocbui · 18-03-2019 12:50PM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

This link says Boston, Seattle and Portland are good places for solar.

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/02/08/solar-panels-work-cloudy-days-just-less-effectively/

Have you put your money where your beliefs are - put panels on your roof?

Portland Oregon gets 2340 hours of annual sunshine, Seattle gets 2170 - Dublin gets 1424 - Ireland is one of the worst places on Earth to have solar PV. By all means spend as much of your own money on pursuing this nonsense as you wish.

Anyone in Ireland who truly wants to be green, as opposed to deluding themselves - should just move to a warmer climate. The average temperature in Ireland on an annual basis is 10° C, which means fossil fuels, in most cases, need to be used to heat homes to a more comfortable 20°c The energy that requires makes Solar PV look pathetic.

I am planning to do exactly that - move to a warmer climate with double the hours of annual sunshine.

Ubbquittious · 18-03-2019 03:21PM

cnocbui wrote: »

6 months of each and every year are total darkness. Solar without viable storage is impractical except for the feel-good factor.

You must be a good few degrees further North than I am. Havn't seen a full day of total darkness here ever

Franz Von Peppercorn · 18-03-2019 04:34PM

cnocbui wrote: »

Have you put your money where your beliefs are - put panels on your roof?

No, and that’s a personal question not an answer to my general statement (where I also said that wind was the best option for Ireland but solar works). Dolan baker showed he was in surplus for much of the March 17th, a not very sunny day.

Portland Oregon gets 2340 hours of annual sunshine, Seattle gets 2170 - Dublin gets 1424 - Ireland is one of the worst places on Earth to have solar PV. By all means spend as much of your own money on pursuing this nonsense as you wish.

That’s direct rather than indirect sunlight and as the article I linked to said, solar works in indirect sunlight. It also works better below 25c. I merely said that solar works in Ireland, by the way, not that it would be the main form of renewables.

Anyone in Ireland who truly wants to be green, as opposed to deluding themselves - should just move to a warmer climate. The average temperature in Ireland on an annual basis is 10° C, which means fossil fuels, in most cases, need to be used to heat homes to a more comfortable 20°c The energy that requires makes Solar PV look pathetic.

that is the average temperature per year, day and night. You seem to be missing the cost of air conditioning in hot climates. Australia is far higher than Ireland (and Ireland is too high).

I am planning to do exactly that - move to a warmer climate with double the hours of annual sunshine.

That’s your own personal hang up, good for you. Don’t use any aircon.

Before weak minds started on personal usage I did mention that wind is our best strategy but solar works in Ireland.

Pinch Flat · 18-03-2019 04:36PM

Electricity is a finite resource. Eventually we’ll run out of it and will need to work on finding a replacement.

18-03-2019 04:44PM

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Electricity is a finite resource. Eventually we’ll run out of it and will need to work on finding a replacement.

What a highly charged comment, I'm sure it'll spark some witty replies.

18-03-2019 05:04PM

there seems to be a big push towards solar pv, I'm still considering getting a solar thermal set up, i believe they are common in places like Austria which are a similar latitude to us and have similar levels of light, as much as I'd like to have both or even a large pv array, i just don't think it's as useful, payback seems too long, I'd be curious what the savings are compared to say a more efficient boiler, pv at the moment means use it or lose it, and all the connected devices to manage it is extra cost that I think might be more cost and actually effective on businesses roofs like supermarkets,anyone that uses a significant amount of electricity during the day too, the payback must be shorter there plus could claim back costs against tax.

Pinch Flat · 18-03-2019 05:12PM

Deleted User wrote: »

What a highly charged comment, I'm sure it'll spark some witty replies.

Some negative, some positive I'd imagine

hmmm · 18-03-2019 05:13PM

For me, one of the key benefits of renewables is that the money is invested in firms in Ireland & mostly Europe. Instead of us paying hundreds of billions every year to despots in the Middle East, the money is re-invested in our own economies. We will be paying Danish firms to build windmills, Irish firms to erect them, Swiss firms to build the infrastructure etc etc.

So even if prices increase, which is arguable, the money will largely be circulated back into the economy of Ireland & the EU.

Paddy Cow · 18-03-2019 06:19PM

cnocbui wrote: »

Electricity prices will have to rise because 10% of government revenues come from motoring taxes. Some EV dreamers think the government will just increase vat to 30%, or something similar, but I doubt it. The government loves using scatter taxes to disguise the true tax burden.

100% this. Electricity is already 50% usage and 50% taxes. I've stopped reading the breakdown because it annoys me so much. What irritates me the most is that they have electricity usage, then PSO levy, then standing charges per day for being connected and because I have storage heaters there's a standing charge for those (which obviously I don't use in the warmer months) and then they add VAT of top of all that. So there's tax added to the taxes :mad:

Plus it's already increased a lot. I live in a one bedroom flat. My bill for two summer months used to be €70 four or five years ago. Now it's €100+.

Ubbquittious · 18-03-2019 06:53PM

hmmm wrote: »

For me, one of the key benefits of renewables is that the money is invested in firms in Ireland & mostly Europe. Instead of us paying hundreds of billions every year to despots in the Middle East, the money is re-invested in our own economies. We will be paying Danish firms to build windmills, Irish firms to erect them, Swiss firms to build the infrastructure etc etc.

So even if prices increase, which is arguable, the money will largely be circulated back into the economy of Ireland & the EU.

Unfortunately the Chinese have made sh1t of the non-chinese solar panel industry and they have a good foothold in some other renewable energy products as well

cnocbui · 18-03-2019 07:44PM

Ubbquittious wrote: »

You must be a good few degrees further North than I am. Havn't seen a full day of total darkness here ever

I presume you understood what I meant and were just being humorous?

cnocbui · 18-03-2019 07:56PM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

No, and that’s a personal question not an answer to my general statement (where I also said that wind was the best option for Ireland but solar works). Dolan baker showed he was in surplus for much of the March 17th, a not very sunny day.

That’s direct rather than indirect sunlight and as the article I linked to said, solar works in indirect sunlight. It also works better below 25c. I merely said that solar works in Ireland, by the way, not that it would be the main form of renewables.

that is the average temperature per year, day and night. You seem to be missing the cost of air conditioning in hot climates. Australia is far higher than Ireland (and Ireland is too high).

That’s your own personal hang up, good for you. Don’t use any aircon.

Before weak minds started on personal usage I did mention that wind is our best strategy but solar works in Ireland.

Dolan Bakers graph doesn't include his energy usage after dark, so that isn't true.

I lived in Australia for 30 years and only had aircon for the last two, so not a problem, mate. Aircon uses very little energy when you do use it to cool off compared to how much energy you need here annually, to heat.

18-03-2019 08:13PM

cnocbui wrote: »

Dolan Bakers graph doesn't include his energy usage after dark, so that isn't true.

I lived in Australia for 30 years and only had aircon for the last two, so not a problem, mate. Aircon uses very little energy when you do use it to cool off compared to how much energy you need here annually, to heat.

Solar panels don't generate after sunset or in poor light, that is a given.
The chart only displayed solar generated and solar exported nothing else.
If I had batteries, I would store the surplus to use in the evenings and if I had wind I could generate significant amounts of energy most nights as well, sufficient to charge batteries on windy nights as well.

Ubbquittious · 18-03-2019 10:07PM

cnocbui wrote: »

I presume you understood what I meant and were just being humorous?

Hard enough to guess now

I wonder has someone tried running a heat pump directly off a wind turbine. Maybe with a few supercpacitors or small battery array to smoothen the power source. The ground slab for underfloor heating could smoothen it out much further. Where I live now this system would have a good chance at replacing the oil central heating without being dependent on the grid but I don't own the house so can't try it out. One would have to re-engineer the controller for the heatpump and very little else

cnocbui · 18-03-2019 10:43PM

Ubbquittious wrote: »

Hard enough to guess now

What I meant, is that half of all the hours in a year are nighttime - darkness - on average 12 hrs of nighttime per day. So the annual hours of darkness would total to about 6 months.

As for wind turbines and underfloor heating, I had that idea about 20 years ago, but never pursued it.

I can't see any problems getting planning permission in this country for one of those.

(Based on the comment here: http://www.yougen.co.uk/blog-entry/1398/Can+you+heat+a+house+with+a+wind+turbine'3F/)

Are electricity costs due to shoot up in about 10 years time?

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