Is chiropractic nonsense?

Mad_maxx · 12-03-2019 9:20pm

donspeekinglesh wrote: »

Acupuncture or dry needling? Dry needling has a veneer of being evidence based - needle goes where muscle hurts to release tension. Not trying to cure non-muscular illnesses like acupuncture. (I haven't looked into dry needling to see what the evidence is like, but I find it helpful, but that could as easily been regression to the mean.)

It helped me with nerve pain I had I persistently from 2007 to 2013 and with flare ups after that for a few years

I'm currently nine months into another injury where I have arthritis in my foot as a consequence of a block falling on it from a height, unfortunately acupuncture has not helped for this particularly ailment as its mainly a joint pain issue

Mrs OBumble · 12-03-2019 9:48pm

judeboy101 wrote: »

Zero peer reviewed data to back up chiropractors, acupuncture or homeopathy.pure placebo effect, same goes for yoga, praying and mindfulness.

Not sure that's 100% accurate for praying anyways - for example https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2521827

wandererz · 12-03-2019 10:12pm

Go get a Thai massage & see if that helps first.

fonecrusher1 · 12-03-2019 10:15pm

wandererz wrote: »

Go get a Thai massage & see if that helps first.

Honestly I'd say any sort of prolonged back massage is probably as likely to help with back pain as chiropractic 'treatment' is.

mulbot · 12-03-2019 10:38pm

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Honestly I'd say any sort of prolonged back massage is probably as likely to help with back pain as chiropractic 'treatment' is.

All of my Chiro treatments, when living away from Ireland were about 90% stretching, massaging etc. None of that "routine" cracking I've seen here. Definitely helped me, had severe neck pain for years. I still use stretching exercises, yoga etc as my main way to keep myself pain free now.

fonecrusher1 · 12-03-2019 10:43pm

mulbot wrote: »

All of my Chiro treatments, when living away from Ireland were about 90% stretching, massaging etc. None of that "routine" cracking I've seen here. Definitely helped me, had severe neck pain for years. I still use stretching exercises, yoga etc as my main way to keep myself pain free now.

But sure is that not just a form of massage really then?

Dante7 · 12-03-2019 11:23pm

mulbot wrote: »

All of my Chiro treatments, when living away from Ireland were about 90% stretching, massaging etc. None of that "routine" cracking I've seen here. Definitely helped me, had severe neck pain for years. I still use stretching exercises, yoga etc as my main way to keep myself pain free now.

Man runs blindfolded across busy motorway and survives and declares it safe.

Ave Sodalis · 12-03-2019 11:41pm

judeboy101 wrote: »

Zero peer reviewed data to back up chiropractors, acupuncture or homeopathy.pure placebo effect, same goes for yoga, praying and mindfulness.

There's a limited amount of peer reviewed data, with admittedly poor methodology (so small sample sizes etc), that suggests there might be a benefit to mindfulness. It hasn't been dismissed a quackery quite yet.

I'm not sure what the problem with yoga is? It's an effective form of exercise that targets both strength and flexibility. Now there still needs to be more studies done, but saying there's zero peer reviewed data for it is just wrong.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0965229906000434
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3193654/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5843960/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3099103/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1744388110000794

mulbot · 13-03-2019 12:29am

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

But sure is that not just a form of massage really then?

Exactly, that's the point,. Stretching and keep g supple are what a good Chiro will work at primarily, not this cracking every bone in the body.

mulbot · 13-03-2019 12:30am

Dante7 wrote: »

Man runs blindfolded across busy motorway and survives and declares it safe.

So you think stretching, muscle massage etc is nonsense?

fonecrusher1 · 13-03-2019 1:37am

mulbot wrote: »

Exactly, that's the point,. Stretching and keep g supple are what a good Chiro will work at primarily, not this cracking every bone in the body.

Yeah but masseurs don't run around wearing white coats calling themselves doctors thinking they can cure chronic migraines by squeezing your big toe. Dodgy liver? Hang on that's the small toe.

:pac:

evolving_doors · 13-03-2019 7:43am

Orgamoplum wrote: »

It depends on the chiropractor, I would say most are useless or even dangerous. I think some though can be very effective, more so than a phhysio who are often useless.

I think you're wrong

13-03-2019 8:36am

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Not sure that's 100% accurate for praying anyways - for example https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2521827

That is a study on the affect of attending religious services. While praying might be an aspect of that - it is certainly not what the link was studying. In fact the word "pray" shows up once in the entire document.

In fact there is little in that link to suggest anything to do with religion - let alone praying specifically - is having an effect because there is no attempt to control for or compare it to the aspects of attending _any_ heavily social event of this nature. Social engagement for the ill is something we already know is beneficial I believe.

So it is not clear what that study actually shows to be true about our world. Very little it would seem. But absolutely nothing about it seems relevant to prayer?

13-03-2019 10:27am

judeboy101 wrote: »

Zero peer reviewed data to back up chiropractors, acupuncture or homeopathy.pure placebo effect, same goes for yoga, praying and mindfulness.

I think that might be a disingenuous comparison and saying there is no reviewed data for some of it maybe too sweeping a statement.

The reason I think this is that the claims made for all of the above are not at all similar. So when you merely list all 6 with no substance between then - you create an equivalence that simply is not there.

For example the first three on your list have a tendency to claim to literally cure diseases. Something we have absolutely no evidence for.

While Praying in some circles is literally claiming to be contacting the creator of the universe and petitioning it to intervene in our universe in some way.

Mindfulness however - while some people do run away with the claims of what it can achieve without reason - is not generally making crazy claims about what it can or does achieve. And even there "praying" I would list as another forum of meditation. If people are claiming praying simply helps them get calm and focused and so forth - I would say that is just a meditation claim not a prayer claim.

So when you say there is no "peer reviewed data" for these things - it might pay to distinguish what aspects of them you mean and what claims specifically you think are or are not being supported with data.

sbsquarepants · 13-03-2019 10:40am

Cartroubles wrote: »

What are your experiences?

Steer well clear - I went to see one years back cos I was having back trouble, he told me the problem was I needed inserts for my shoes (which he could provide of course) and then proceeded to crack this and that and all would be well.

I got out of bed the following morning and collapsed it a heap, what I had was 2 ruptured discs in my neck, which the clown had obviously aggravated.

Was looking like I'd need an operation for a while, thankfully it didn't come to that but it was months before I was right(ish) ten years later it's still not 100%.

The consultant told me at least 50% of his work is trying to put right damage caused by chiropractors, avoid them at all costs!

jim o doom · 13-03-2019 11:00am

Try an Osteopath, bit more expensive but a lot less BS.

I visited a chiropractor some years back as I was having upper back problems, and to be honest, he sorted me out and I've never had the problem since, nor had to return.

I realise that my story doesn't mean that chiropractors are good as it could have just been a placebo effect.

I talked to a doctor about it before and they said all doctors hate chiros, but they generally haven't got a problem with osteopaths. So that's why I suggested that.

sbsquarepants · 13-03-2019 11:10am

jim o doom wrote: »

Try an Osteopath, bit more expensive but a lot less BS.

.

The only thing an osteopath has over a chiropractor, is that they won't damage you by virtue of the fact that they basically do nothing!

Buford T. Justice XIX · 13-03-2019 11:43am

I injured my back more than 20 years ago playing sports and just played on through the pain for a few weeks until I went to a physio to see if he could sort it. Over the next 2 years I went to 4 different physios including one rather famous one to no effect. All recommended the same treatment which simply wasn't working for me. The pain was present all day and night and playing and training was becoming too difficult to stay going.

I went to a local Chiropracter, more as a last gasp than with any real hope of a cure. She did some stretching and massage and some twisting of an arm until there was a crack, the only time that happened. I walked out of the office pain free for the first time in over 2 years, went home and slept for 18 hours straight through.

I appreciate the lack of evidence and damage some have received from dealing with some Chiropracters but I can only say positive things about my experience with mine. I go every 3 weeks this time of year due to the physical workload of my job and maybe every 6 weeks for the rest of the year, working out at about a euro a day over the year.

Considering that I can get back spasms and locked up from simply pulling a chair out from the table to sit on, I consider it a small cost to be pain free for the most of the last 20 years.

Physio didn't work for me, Chiropractor did.

professore · 13-03-2019 2:32pm

A friend of mine was very lucky not to be paralysed from the neck down as he went to a chiropractor for back pain. Turned out he had a rare condition - a herniated spinal cord (i.e. his spinal cord was trapped between two vertebrae). One hard crack in the wrong place and he was done for.

13-03-2019 2:46pm

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

All recommended the same treatment which simply wasn't working for me.

An interesting effect - probably not in your cases as I do not have details but this sentence from you put it in my mind - with things like Homeopathy and other quack treatments is that the reason they "work" in some cases is precisely because they do nothing at all.

What I mean by this is often a treatment we choose as doctors exacerbates the problem - or causes new problems - or prolongs a problem - or even cures a problem but retains the symptoms. And due to over prescribing (one known problem in our medical profession) and other similar issues we simply do not notice.

So what happens is that someone gives up on their treatment - or like you on getting the same treatment offered again and again even though it does not work - and they try something like Homeopathy which is simply just water.

And in that period because they are not doing anything at all - or have given up on their prescribed medication - or or or - their symptoms have a chance to simply clear up on their own.

Of course the major issue here is that we do not have an easy way to predict that. Clearly we can not just have everyone simply give up their medication or treatments to see if it helps. Many people who do that will simply die. And they will not be here to give us their testimonial like you can.

But it is simply true that the reason quack treatments work in some cases - is that the user is actually not taking the medication or treatment that was actually causing their issues until that point. And they of course then think "Well I know there is no evidence but homeopathy/chiropractor/whatever certainly worked for me!"

Buford T. Justice XIX · 13-03-2019 3:09pm

Deleted User wrote: »

An interesting effect - probably not in your cases as I do not have details but this sentence from you put it in my mind - with things like Homeopathy and other quack treatments is that the reason they "work" in some cases is precisely because they do nothing at all.

What I mean by this is often a treatment we choose as doctors exacerbates the problem - or causes new problems - or prolongs a problem - or even cures a problem but retains the symptoms. And due to over prescribing (one known problem in our medical profession) and other similar issues we simply do not notice.

So what happens is that someone gives up on their treatment - or like you on getting the same treatment offered again and again even though it does not work - and they try something like Homeopathy which is simply just water.

And in that period because they are not doing anything at all - or have given up on their prescribed medication - or or or - their symptoms have a chance to simply clear up on their own.

Of course the major issue here is that we do not have an easy way to predict that. Clearly we can not just have everyone simply give up their medication or treatments to see if it helps. Many people who do that will simply die. And they will not be here to give us their testimonial like you can.

But it is simply true that the reason quack treatments work in some cases - is that the user is actually not taking the medication or treatment that was actually causing their issues until that point. And they of course then think "Well I know there is no evidence but homeopathy/chiropractor/whatever certainly worked for me!"

Believe me, I share your scepticism and my rational mind is looking at this and questioning what exactly has happened.

I was on a similar programme with all the Physios for months at a time with very little reduction in symptoms. It can easily be argued that the programmes settled my symptoms enough that it was cured just as I tried a different treatment, I appreciate that.

But, for 20 years now, I haven't done any part of the programmes which I was told I'd have to continue for the rest of my life, basically. I have stopped going to the Chiro at times for a few months but eventually the spasm/locking returns and walking and sleeping becomes difficult. I know if I go every 6 weeks maximum, the issue stays under control. If I go any longer, I'll be returning every week for a few weeks to bring it back under control.

At this stage, I've stopped trying to rationalise it, it works for me and I'll continue doing it until it stops working. All I know is I'm relatively pain free and can walk and run without pain and carry weights for a fair distance without difficulty. Those were things I was unable to do without pain when I was younger.

I'm happy with the outcome even if I can't fathom why it's working.

13-03-2019 3:15pm

Indeed one can not put an individual price on happiness - no matter how quack the source of it! If a midget psychic makes you abundantly happy every month dancing around in diamonds - more power to you.

I guess the problems start when for every person helped and has a good testimonial - others are simply deprived of their money or even actively harmed by it.

And people can get quite annoyed when you try to rationalise their testimonial. I replied to your post because I know you well enough to know you are likely not one of those people - rational and approachable as you are!

But some can see it as a personal affront. But we do it because someone could read a testimonial of that sort - run along to try it - and get actively and irreparably injured by the practitioners of what appears for the most part to be woo.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 13-03-2019 3:22pm

What the **** ever happened to going to doctors??

Go see a doctor, OP. If he says go see a chiropracter, get him to recommend one and then do the research on that particular recommendation.

If it's quackery, your doctor won't send you to one.

Simples.

Outlaw Pete · 13-03-2019 3:46pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

What the **** ever happened to going to doctors??

Go see a doctor, OP. If he says go see a chiropracter, get him to recommend one and then do the research on that particular recommendation.

If it's quackery, your doctor won't send you to one.

Simples.

Might be that simple to you, but many in pain have gone down the medical route but their issues haven't been alleviated. Some have had operations only for their pain to be made worse. So don't just assume that people who attend a chiropractor are doing so as their first port of call. That's rarely the case.

On the contrary, for most it's a last resort given mainstream medicine has been unable to help them. Of course the chances are a chiropractor won't help them much either, might even make them worse, but for some, many whom I've met, its absolutely changed their lives for the better and immeasurably improved their quality of life.

The placebo effect? Perhaps. Perhaps not.

I don't think anyone is advocating, by the way, that people should go to see a chiropractor above attending a doctor but again, that's not always fruitful venture. If only it were.If only it were.

Mrs OBumble · 13-03-2019 3:59pm

sbsquarepants wrote: »

The only thing an osteopath has over a chiropractor, is that they won't damage you by virtue of the fact that they basically do nothing!

Bollox.

In the UK it's a four year full time course to be one, and the word "osteopath" is a protected title.

I wouldn't go to someone with only Irish training.

Maybe you were thinking of homeopath?

The Enbalmer · 13-03-2019 5:24pm

In the UK, chiropractors can thank their regulated status for much of their standing and freedom from ridicule that other quackery attracts – like homeopathy. Chiropractors are statutorily regulated. You need to be registered to call yourself one. You can even call yourself Doctor as long as you do not imply that you are medically trained – but that is hard. Brass plaques. White coats. X-ray machines. My best guess is that most people think of chiropractic as a branch of medicine. It is not. It is quackery and a business.

John Mason · 13-03-2019 5:29pm

Spent thousands on physio on my neck and back over many years and nothing helped. I was in so much pain I couldnt do anything that required standing or sitting for longer than 5 mins.

4 sessions with the chiro - pain gone. Am pain free for years.

I could have bought a house with the amount i spent on physio, pilates, painkillers and doctors fees

MonkieSocks · 13-03-2019 5:38pm

John Mason wrote: »

Spent thousands on physio on my neck and back over many years and nothing helped. I was in so much pain I couldnt do anything that required standing or sitting for longer than 5 mins.

4 sessions with the chiro - pain gone. Am pain free for years.

I could have bought a house with the amount i spent on physio, pilates, painkillers and doctors fees

Exact same here Physios, osteopaths :mad:, accupuncture,Pain killers

Two visits to a chiro fixed the problem.

To be a proper chiro needs 4 years training and in Irelamd should be registered with https://www.chiropractic.ie/

The Enbalmer · 13-03-2019 5:44pm

You can study for 50 years to be a chiro you're still a quack.

ohnonotgmail · 13-03-2019 5:48pm

MonkieSocks wrote: »

Exact same here Physios, osteopaths :mad:, accupuncture,Pain killers

Two visits to a chiro fixed the problem.

To be a proper chiro needs 4 years training and in Irelamd should be registered with https://www.chiropractic.ie/

regulation of chiropractic is entirely voluntary and self-regulated..

Is chiropractic nonsense?

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