What is VDSL, and who provides?

hadenoughofit · 07-03-2019 08:21PM #1

Hi guys.

We seem to be grinding down to the fact that we're about 0.7km from a VDSL enabled box, and that Airwire could hook us up. (just north of Naas)

Struggling to understand the options.

VDSL is apparently copper wire based from the exchange (so Aer presumably have a hand in it), but a faster technology. It slows rapidly with distance but according to Airwire should give us a safe 20Mbps at our distance.

Do service providers other than Airwire offer VDSL, and if so under what names?

What packages or options?

The abuse of terminology by providers (not Airwire) badly muddies the water.

Wary of signing up to a contract to find the performance falls away with time.

What has been the experience of VDSL here?

How might it compare in performance to 4G mobile broadband from an at times fairly heavily loaded mast?

theteal · 07-03-2019 08:30PM

I'm not sure who provides it in Ireland - I'd guess Eir's fibre is based on it like here in the UK where VDSL is BT's "fibre" package which gets up to about 60mbps iirc, it's basically fibre to the cab and then copper to the premises. ADSL is standard broadband which maxes out at about 16mbps. All of these speeds are distance dependent. If you have a good connection, it will blitz 4G which should never be considered unless properly stuck for options.

ED E · 07-03-2019 08:36PM

VDSL = eFibre(Not efibre ultimate) = FTTC.

Here its specifically annex 17a with vectoring support for up to 100Mb at 0-100m from the cab and dropping off thereafter.

OpenEir sell it to ISPs who sell it to you. VDSL from Sky, Eir, Vodafone, Airwire, IFA or anyone else will be the same service, same speeds. Definitely prefer a 700m run which will be north of 20Mb (airwire are being conservative) to 4G midband.

tsue921i8wljb3 · 07-03-2019 08:40PM

https://fibrerollout.ie/rollout-map/where-to-buy/

Pretty much every ISP provides it under various names eFibre from eir being the most recognisable. They get away with calling it fibre or Fibre to the Cabinet (FTTC) because there is fibre at the cabinet or exchange but the link to your home is over copper.

A stable VDSL line at 20Mb should be more reliable than a 4G connection in my opinion.

hadenoughofit · 08-03-2019 12:17AM

Thank you guys, that's a big help. Think we will go with it on Airwire.

It seemed likely that since it seemed to be the infrastructure that most providers should have it - not that you would know from the terminology they use.

I was actually rather impressed by the factual and grounded discussion it was possible to have with the Airwire sales guy - it compared very well with the carry on of most of the others I've spoken to at different stages.

Hopefully it'll translate into a decent level of ongoing service provision and support too...

Airwire: MartinL · 10-03-2019 07:24PM

Hi,

we are just honest and call a shoe, a shoe. If you read the box under VDSL on our products page: https://www.airwire.ie/index.php/products it explains, that it is "fibre to the cabinet" = FTTC. But it is ... at the end of the day .. a service provided on copper.

As others have said, it's mostly OpenEIR providing it and there are a good few providers offering it through them, we being one of them.

The speed you get depends on how far you are from the cabinet, that your phone line is connected to and how good the line is. But we'll endaevour to set you at the highest profile possible. And if you only can get 50 Mbit/s or less and don't need unlimited usage, we even offer you a package, that costs 9 EUR less.

hadenoughofit · 10-03-2019 08:17PM

Thanks for that Martin.

We've concluded we're going to give it a try.

oranbhoy67 · 12-03-2019 02:25AM

Airwire: MartinL wrote: »

Hi,

we are just honest and call a shoe, a shoe. If you read the box under VDSL on our products page: https://www.airwire.ie/index.php/products it explains, that it is "fibre to the cabinet" = FTTC. But it is ... at the end of the day .. a service provided on copper.

As others have said, it's mostly OpenEIR providing it and there are a good few providers offering it through them, we being one of them.

The speed you get depends on how far you are from the cabinet, that your phone line is connected to and how good the line is. But we'll endaevour to set you at the highest profile possible. And if you only can get 50 Mbit/s or less and don't need unlimited usage, we even offer you a package, that costs 9 EUR less.

Hi, Martin, I measured and I live less than 1KM from the local fibre cabinet in my new home, but eir have told me it is not "commercially viable" for me to have Fibre Broadband and they could only promise me speeds of up to 8MPBS which is well below what I need

I live in a blue area on the broadband map but my house is amber as is the many others on my road ( including a few Businesses)

Would VDSL be an option for me?

I'm currently using wireless and the contention rates at peak hours make it at times unusable

Edit* Just to add im in north west Donegal

Airwire: MartinL · 12-03-2019 02:40PM

Hi, 1km is along distance on VDSL. At that distance all you can get is 20-28 Mbit/s ... and that is only, if the copper is perfect.

oranbhoy67 · 12-03-2019 03:35PM

Airwire: MartinL wrote: »

Hi, 1km is along distance on VDSL. At that distance all you can get is 20-28 Mbit/s ... and that is only, if the copper is perfect.

I spoke to one of your reps today, I would take half of that as long as it is consistent.

as right now I'm getting anything between 15- 40 Mbit/s during the day with Rural WiFi then 4-5 Mbit/s at night when it is congested which is when I need it the most in this household.

So I have organised with one of your reps to send someone out to see what I can potentially get, hopefully we can get something in place before my trial with Rural WiFi runs out

Airwire: MartinL · 12-03-2019 04:02PM

Hi,

that's no problem. We will obviously try and see, what we can get you.

oranbhoy67 · 12-03-2019 04:57PM

Airwire: MartinL wrote: »

Hi, 1km is along distance on VDSL. At that distance all you can get is 20-28 Mbit/s ... and that is only, if the copper is perfect.

sorry, I think I've been confused by the language here is Mbit/s the same as MPBS ??

tuxy · 12-03-2019 05:12PM

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

sorry, I think I've been confused by the language here is Mbit/s the same as MPBS ??

I have never heard of MPBS before and have no idea what it could stand for.

Broadband is almost always measured in Mbit/second(or Mb, lower case b)

Sometimes file size or transfers will be measured in Mbytes/second(or MB upper case

It would be unusual for an ISP to quote your speeds in megabytes and not megabits

8 bits in a byte so 8mbit/s = 1 Mbyte/s

oranbhoy67 · 12-03-2019 05:20PM

tuxy wrote: »

I have never heard of MPBS before and have no idea what it could stand for.

Broadband is almost always measured in Mbit/second(or Mb, lower case b)

Sometimes file size or transfers will be measured in Mbytes/second(or MB upper case
It would be unusual for an ISP to quote your speeds in megabytes and not megabits

8 bits in a byte so 8mbit/s = 1 Mbyte/s

hi I appreciate the answer
I'm just not very clued beyond the basics when it comes to this, I'm going by the speeds you get on speedtest . net where it comes up as Mbps

so what I'm asking is the above rate that I was quoted of 20-28 Mbit/s the same as 20- 28 Mbps as it would appear on speedtest (in a my own confused & convoluted way)

tuxy · 12-03-2019 05:23PM

oranbhoy67 wrote: »

so what I'm asking is the above rate that I was quoted of 20-28 Mbit/s the same as 20- 28 Mbps as it would appear on speedtest (in a my own confused & convoluted way)

Yes Mbps is the exact same thing as Mbit/s both mean megabits per second and I completely understand how so many acronyms that may or may not mean the same thing can be confusing.

oranbhoy67 · 12-03-2019 05:36PM

tuxy wrote: »

Yes Mbps is the exact same thing as Mbit/s both mean megabits per second and I completely understand how so many acronyms that may or may not mean the same thing can be confusing.

thanks a mill

I made the mistake of googling it and was lead to a site that led me to believe that they were different

AdrianLM · 07-11-2019 11:33AM

Airwire: MartinL wrote: »

Hi,

we are just honest and call a shoe, a shoe. If you read the box under VDSL on our products page: https://www.airwire.ie/index.php/products it explains, that it is "fibre to the cabinet" = FTTC. But it is ... at the end of the day .. a service provided on copper.

As others have said, it's mostly OpenEIR providing it and there are a good few providers offering it through them, we being one of them.

The speed you get depends on how far you are from the cabinet, that your phone line is connected to and how good the line is. But we'll endaevour to set you at the highest profile possible. And if you only can get 50 Mbit/s or less and don't need unlimited usage, we even offer you a package, that costs 9 EUR less.

MartinL, Hopefully you will see this an respond. What is the attenuation for VDSL i.e. if the copper was in good shape what speed would you expect to get after 1 km, 2km etc? According to google maps I'm 6km from the exchange.

Airwire: MartinL · 07-11-2019 11:52AM

AdrianLM wrote: »

MartinL, Hopefully you will see this an respond. What is the attenuation for VDSL i.e. if the copper was in good shape what speed would you expect to get after 1 km, 2km etc? According to google maps I'm 6km from the exchange.

VDSL can only reach 2km from the cabinet or exchange, depending on where your phone line is connected.

These are the distances and speeds expected from a stable VDSL line on OpenEIRs infrastructure:

100m - 100M/2-20M
300m - 85M/2-20M
450m - 80M/2-20M
525m - 70M/2-20M
600m - 60M/2-20M
650m - 50M/2-16M
750m - 43M/2-16M
750m - 40M/2-16M
850m - 34M/2-16M
1000m - 28M/2-16M
1000m - 20M/2-10M
1200m - 20M/2-8M
1300m - 18M/1-7M
1500m - 12M/256k-1M
1750m - 10M/256k-1M
2000m - 4M/256k-1M

So unless there is a cabinet nearer to you and your phoneline goes through said cabinet, you will never get VDSL, I'm afraid.

kevinbad2010 · 08-11-2019 05:10PM

Airwire: MartinL wrote: »

VDSL can only reach 2km from the cabinet or exchange, depending on where your phone line is connected.

These are the distances and speeds expected from a stable VDSL line on OpenEIRs infrastructure:

100m - 100M/2-20M
...
...
..

So unless there is a cabinet nearer to you and your phoneline goes through said cabinet, you will never get VDSL, I'm afraid.

Hey there I was wondering what the speeds would be for around 200m from the cabinet, I calculated the distance to the new house i'm moving to soon and the cabinet seems to be around 140m to the house.

also are the phone lines overhead on the poles? or underground?

Thanks in advance.

Marlow · 08-11-2019 08:00PM

The phone line from the house may not be going to that cabinet. Only a provider can answer that question for you.

And phonelines can be over ground, but they can also be under ground. Varies a lot from area to area.

/M

spindex · 16-11-2020 11:56AM

Hi guys, quick question,

I can get vdsl broadband (up to 100Mbits/s) Available at maximum 7M/1M
My neighbor can get vdsl broadband (up to 100Mbits/s) Available at maximum 70M/20M
I know what the 100Mbits/s means, what do the other numbers mean ? Who would have the better broadband?

jmcc · 16-11-2020 12:17PM

spindex wrote: »

Hi guys, quick question,

I can get vdsl broadband (up to 100Mbits/s) Available at maximum 7M/1M
My neighbor can get vdsl broadband (up to 100Mbits/s) Available at maximum 70M/20M
I know what the 100Mbits/s means, what do the other numbers mean ? Who would have the better broadband?

70Mb/s download and 20 Mb/s upload is the better one. The other is just 7 Mb/s download and 1 Mb/s upload. While the profile may be 70/20, those speeds may not be reached in practice. Compared to ADSL, VDSL is quite stable and consistent as the distances are shorter. VDSL is to the nearest cabinet whereas ADSL is to the nearest exchange.

Regards...jmcc

The Cush · 16-11-2020 12:22PM

spindex wrote: »

I can get vdsl broadband (up to 100Mbits/s) Available at maximum 7M/1M
My neighbor can get vdsl broadband (up to 100Mbits/s) Available at maximum 70M/20M
I know what the 100Mbits/s means, what do the other numbers mean ? Who would have the better broadband?

1 and 20 Mbps are the upload speeds, your neighbour has the faster speeds. Your quoted speeds would indicate you're at the max limit for FFTC/VDSL at almost 2km from the exchange. Is you neighbour connected to a different exchange/cabinet as his speeds indicate he's much closer.

spindex · 16-11-2020 12:51PM

The 2 houses are joined together!

The Cush wrote: »

1 and 20 Mbps are the upload speeds, your neighbour has the faster speeds. Your quoted speeds would indicate you're at the max limit for FFTC/VDSL at almost 2km from the exchange. Is you neighbour connected to a different exchange/cabinet as his speeds indicate he's much closer.

The Cush · 16-11-2020 01:34PM

spindex wrote: »

The 2 houses are joined together!

Do you currently have an active phone line?

Marlow · 16-11-2020 02:39PM

spindex wrote: »

Hi guys, quick question,

I can get vdsl broadband (up to 100Mbits/s) Available at maximum 7M/1M
My neighbor can get vdsl broadband (up to 100Mbits/s) Available at maximum 70M/20M
I know what the 100Mbits/s means, what do the other numbers mean ? Who would have the better broadband?

There probably never was an active VDSL line at your house, so the speeds are that low, because it never has been tested.

Once you order, the internet provider can run a sync test 24-48 hours afterwards and then set the speed to max.

That's a common enough scenario.

There is another possibility though, that while your neighbor is wired to a local cab, your line goes to the exchange and due to the longer distance can't get the speeds. A knowledgable provider should be able to predict and confirm, which of the two is the case.

/M

spindex · 16-11-2020 03:32PM

The Cush wrote: »

Do you currently have an active phone line?

I have a phone socket, but I dont have a phone connected to it.

The Cush · 16-11-2020 04:41PM

spindex wrote: »

I have a phone socket, but I dont have a phone connected to it.

In that case Marlow's reply applies as you don't have an active line to test.

joe123 · 16-11-2020 06:13PM

Is there a way to test this before signing up (outside of the usual speed checkers) on vodafone or Airwire?

Reason I ask is, when I first moved into my house all we could get was DSL speeds of ~10Mb/0.6 but they fluctuate and die a death if a download is taking place etc.

Half way through I was told by a neighbour they enabled the cabinet for my estate BUT the cabinet was still ~1.5km from the house so speed checkers tell me speeds of up to 15Mb/3Mb. Vodafone refused to switch me over to it unless I entered a new (more expensive contract).

My contract on vodafones DSL is coming to an end in the new year, so if I knew I could stay on a relatively cheap package while I wait for NBI I would, the alternative is pay Lightnet 55 euro a month + 100 euro installation for speeds of ~15-20Mb on WISP.

Id settle for VDSL if I could get consistent speeds of ~15mb and 3 up (and a solid ping)

Should say I checked my attenuation in the router settings and it comes up at 23.5

The Cush · 16-11-2020 07:59PM

joe123 wrote: »

Is there a way to test this before signing up (outside of the usual speed checkers) on vodafone or Airwire?

Aren't Airwire/Vodafone etc. just giving you the prequal line test stats open-eir carries out regularly, up to 15 Mbps would be correct for a cabinet 1.5 kms away

speed vs. distance (line length from cabinet or exchange)

joe123 · 17-11-2020 12:47PM

The Cush wrote: »

Aren't Airwire/Vodafone etc. just giving you the prequal line test stats open-eir carries out regularly, up to 15 Mbps would be correct for a cabinet 1.5 kms away

speed vs. distance (line length from cabinet or exchange)

Yeah I suppose I was hoping those line speed tests would give a rough estimate and I could expect more.

I ran my line attenuation on one of those sites that determines line attenuation to distance and it came in at 1.7km.

Its possible my DSL speed of ~10Mb could end up worse than that if I switch over to the FTTC so

What is VDSL, and who provides?

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