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MPs quitting Labour & Conservative parties discussion thread

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    #872
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,390 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Since last Tuesday, GBP vs Euro appears to have stabilised at around 86.8 p to €1, which is better that it has been in a while (Jan 28th).

    So political uncertainty not affecting it.


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    #873
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,148 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Since last Tuesday, GBP vs Euro appears to have stabilised at around 86.8 p to €1, which is better that it has been in a while (Jan 28th).

    So political uncertainty not affecting it.
    It won't really change until there's something definite happening. We're currently just waiting for something to happen.


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    #874
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Folkstonian wrote: »
    Possibly, however at the same time I think when some absolute loon refers to Zionism, or being an anti-Zionist, or starts ranting about Palestine when it has absolutely no relevance to the current state of the Labour Party, they are in fact simply being antisemitic. And it’s such a common occurrence on radio call ins, on social media etc, there is too much evidence of the problem for it to just be dismissed as an ploy to oust Old Jez

    I was looking for some. Please post a link.

    On that note, is Corbyn and his inner circle constantly working towards anti-semetic statements/policies? I can't see it. Even if it's all true the impression is it's a constant.
    I do think a lot of it might be to do with the old 'new labour' types not wanting to follow a left wing leader/party.


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    #875
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    Anti Zionism is a default for many on the left but there is also the trope regarding the Jewish conspiracy to control the world's capital which a certain type of hard leftie might well believe and indeed does like to indulge


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    #876
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Harry Palmr wrote: »
    Anti Zionism is a default for many on the left but there is also the trope regarding the Jewish conspiracy to control the world's capital which a certain type of hard leftie might well believe and indeed does like to indulge

    Famously, it's the hard right seem to have issue with 'the jewish conspiracy'. The hard left wouldn't want any one group holding a monopoly I would imagine.


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    #877
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    You'll find the "trots" are as bad as the fascists when it comes to that particular notion.


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    #878
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    I was looking for some. Please post a link.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_UK_Labour_Party

    Before you dismiss it as "just Wikipedia", it has 298 references, so you can check the primary sources yourself.

    Not that it was hard to find. Repeatedly demanding a link to something that can be found within five seconds on Google seems... disingenuous.


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    #879
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,148 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_UK_Labour_Party

    Before you dismiss it as "just Wikipedia", it has 298 references, so you can check the primary sources yourself.

    Not that it was hard to find. Repeatedly demanding a link to something that can be found within five seconds on Google seems... disingenuous.
    Including the examples and links that were posted on this thread already. But there's no evidence...


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    #880
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_UK_Labour_Party

    Before you dismiss it as "just Wikipedia", it has 298 references, so you can check the primary sources yourself.

    Not that it was hard to find. Repeatedly demanding a link to something that can be found within five seconds on Google seems... disingenuous.

    Unless the claim is made repeatedly with no support, right? Reasonable request IMO. You seen this?
    POLITICS CHARTER AND GUIDELINES
    When offering fact, please offer relevant linkage, or at least source. If you do not do this upon posting, then please be willing to do so on request.
    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Including the examples and links that were posted on this thread already. But there's no evidence...

    Never claimed there was no evidence. I asked for links to evidence. The wiki link is far from conclusive by the way. Maybe there is hard evidence. I'm not a member of the British Labour party, just never seen any actual examples so I asked.


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    #881
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    Never claimed there was no evidence. I asked for links to evidence. The wiki link is far from conclusive by the way.
    You didn't ask for conclusive proof, you asked for evidence. For some reason, despite repeatedly asking here for evidence, it doesn't seem to have occurred to you to, y'know, look for any.
    Maybe there is hard evidence. I'm not a member of the British Labour party...
    Or, apparently, someone who has heard of a search engine.

    I get it: there are none so blind as them that will not see. If you really, really don't want to believe that anti-semitism is a problem in the Labour party, nothing will make you believe it.

    But spare us the tiresome disingenuous demands for evidence. Nobody's buying it.


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    #882
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    You didn't ask for conclusive proof, you asked for evidence. For some reason, despite repeatedly asking here for evidence, it doesn't seem to have occurred to you to, y'know, look for any. Or, apparently, someone who has heard of a search engine.

    I get it: there are none so blind as them that will not see. If you really, really don't want to believe that anti-semitism is a problem in the Labour party, nothing will make you believe it.

    But spare us the tiresome disingenuous demands for evidence. Nobody's buying it.

    Okay, right. Completely different.

    I've never come across any. I've read on this before and only seen inferences of it. People were posting on it as a matter of fact, I asked for you know, examples. Fair ask, not sure what's upsetting you or why.
    I'm merely trying to decide, for myself, based on the information available if the claims are true or not. You need to look at these things from a more balanced approach. I'm open to accepting there may be antisemitism within the party.


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    #883
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,223 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    Okay, right. Completely different.

    I've never come across any. I've read on this before and only seen inferences of it. People were posting on it as a matter of fact, I asked for you know, examples. Fair ask, not sure what's upsetting you or why.
    I'm merely trying to decide, for myself, based on the information available if the claims are true or not. You need to look at these things from a more balanced approach. I'm open to accepting there may be antisemitism within the party.


    Having read OscarBravo's posted and clicked through some of the c140 links in the Wikipedia article, the least that can be said is that there is a substantive case to be answered by Corbyn. Would you disagree with that?
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_UK_Labour_Party

    Before you dismiss it as "just Wikipedia", it has 298 references, so you can check the primary sources yourself.

    Not that it was hard to find. Repeatedly demanding a link to something that can be found within five seconds on Google seems... disingenuous.


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    #884
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Having read OscarBravo's posted and clicked through some of the c140 links in the Wikipedia article, the least that can be said is that there is a substantive case to be answered by Corbyn. Would you disagree with that?

    I would say there seems to be enough hear say that it should be addressed, which I believe he has, It's even in that wiki article. He refuted it. Look, I genuinely asked for some examples as all I've read is claims based on assumptions. I didn't realise I was opening up a bile fest. I've no interest in being put in the 'Corbyn is okay and that's final' category by folks with an axe to grind or an agenda.


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    #885
    Tom Mann Centuria
    Registered Users Posts: 10,921 ✭✭✭✭Tom Mann Centuria


    There is anti semitism in both left and right wing politics, and it's true, some people within the Labour Party have been found guilty of antisemitism and expelled or left the party. This is indisputable.

    Do I think some people's motives are little to do with concerns for this prejudice and more to do with attacking Corbyn for political gain, yes I do. Do I think Luciana Berger left the Labour Party because of antisemitism? It is highly probable. Do I think Chuka Umunna left for the same reasons? I'd say that's equally as improbable.

    Do I think the standards Labour are expected to be held to are universally followed elsewhere, including the commentariat, no I don't.

    Do I think Jewish people with leftist opinions are ignored when their views don't fit the narrative, yes I do.

    The groups motivation for forming their non party are just so different, I honestly don't see them lasting very long (so now they'll probably win the next election outright with huge majority, and Chuka will proclaim himself king)

    Oh well, give me an easy life and a peaceful death.



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    #886
    An Ciarraioch
    Registered Users Posts: 5,801 ✭✭✭An Ciarraioch


    Will Tom Watson's newly-formed social democrat bloc fall out with the leadership?

    http://twitter.com/tom_watson/status/1100737318326095874


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    #887
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,330 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Mod: No more insults please.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #888
    Shelga
    Registered Users Posts: 3,002 ✭✭✭Shelga


    Can I ask a stupid question? :o

    The anti-Semitism thing is such a head scratcher for me. First of all, I've never understood how anyone becomes anti-Semitic anyway, although of course I totally accept that it is a real and significant issue. It just seems like such an utterly bizarre and irrational reason to hate someone in 2019.

    But what I don't understand is, how is this actually manifesting within the Labour party? When Luciana Berger says Labour is institutionally anti-Semitic, what does she actually mean? Is she getting abuse at party meetings, etc? I haven't really heard any examples of how this is actually happening.


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    #889
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Shelga wrote: »
    Can I ask a stupid question? :o

    The anti-Semitism thing is such a head scratcher for me. First of all, I've never understood how anyone becomes anti-Semitic anyway, although of course I totally accept that it is a real and significant issue. It just seems like such an utterly bizarre and irrational reason to hate someone in 2019.

    But what I don't understand is, how is this actually manifesting within the Labour party? When Luciana Berger says Labour is institutionally anti-Semitic, what does she actually mean? Is she getting abuse at party meetings, etc? I haven't really heard any examples of how this is actually happening.

    I've been asking. There's been lots of claims based on what seems to be people taking things, correctly or incorrectly a certain way.
    I know much of it is a pro Israel lobby using any criticism against Israel and claiming antisemitism. Not saying there isn't any, just not come across it in years of this doing the rounds. The UN report out today was met with claims of bias against Israel, only a matter of hours before someone drops 'antisemitism'.


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    #890
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,771 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Shelga wrote: »
    Can I ask a stupid question? :o

    The anti-Semitism thing is such a head scratcher for me. First of all, I've never understood how anyone becomes anti-Semitic anyway, although of course I totally accept that it is a real and significant issue. It just seems like such an utterly bizarre and irrational reason to hate someone in 2019.
    I hear you're a racist now, Father?
    How did you get interested in that type of thing?

    Should we all be racist now, what's the official line the church is taking on it, only the farm takes up most of the day and at night I just like a cup of tea, I mightn't be able to devote myself full time to the old racism.
    - Fr Ted

    But what I don't understand is, how is this actually manifesting within the Labour party? When Luciana Berger says Labour is institutionally anti-Semitic, what does she actually mean? Is she getting abuse at party meetings, etc? I haven't really heard any examples of how this is actually happening.
    Right or wrong, at this point with less than a month to go it's a distraction from Brexit.

    No one is going to solve discrimination or accusations of within the next month. But the future of the UK for the next generation could be.

    They should be focusing on what can actually be achieved .


    Pro Tip : It's much easier to sort out discrimination when you have a healthy economy


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    #891
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,144 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Barry Gardiner performed very well on QT on the topic last night.


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    #892
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,148 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Very good interview with Luciana Berger in The Times. She gives a lot of detail about the kind of abuse she was getting. Apparently four individuals are now in prison as a result. There's also a photo of her on her way to the Labour party conference with a police escort, something that's constantly denied by the Twitter cultists 'because there are no photos'.

    Although it's paywalled, you can register an email address to get access. It doesn't have to be a real email address, any made up gmail/yahoo one will do.


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    #893
    quokula
    Registered Users Posts: 3,573 ✭✭✭quokula


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Very good interview with Luciana Berger in The Times. She gives a lot of detail about the kind of abuse she was getting. Apparently four individuals are now in prison as a result. There's also a photo of her on her way to the Labour party conference with a police escort, something that's constantly denied by the Twitter cultists 'because there are no photos'.

    Although it's paywalled, you can register an email address to get access. It doesn't have to be a real email address, any made up gmail/yahoo one will do.

    That site is 404-ing when I try to put in an email address so I can't read the content. However, I know from previous reading that in every single case of someone being found guilty of antisemitism against her, those people have had no affiliation whatsoever with the Labour party (and a number have been members of far right groups - e.g. https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/luciana-berger-murder-boast-terror-offences-trial-1.467449 )

    While it's terrible that she's had to put up with such abuse, it's a pity that this has been weaponised against people like Corbyn who have had nothing to do with it and have spent their lives fighting racism.

    Her hatred of Corbyn stems from the fact he once made a comment on facebook when asked about an artwork that was being censored, where he showed support for the artist, the details being here https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/did-jeremy-corbyn-back-artist-whose-mural-was-condemned-as-antisemitic-1.62106

    The artwork was censored because it was seen as antisemitic. It depicts a bunch of wealthy bankers playing a monopoly game on the backs of poor people - at the time it was painted, just after the financial crisis, it can be seen how such an artwork might be appreciated by someone with left wing beliefs like Corbyn. However, though the artist stringently denies it, many commentators believe the bankers shown were Jewish and the artwork was therefore antisemitic. Corbyn himself later said he hadn't looked at it closely and would have agreed with taking it down if he realised it was antisemitic.

    Ever since that comment was dredged up, Berger has frequently attacked the Labour party and called it anti-semitic, and conflated abuse she's received from outside the party with the issue. She has prior form with this sort of thing as before she was in Labour she was on the committee of the National Union of Students which she also called institutionally anti-semitic, and which she also quit, and which was also subject to an independent inquiry that found no evidence it was antisemitic.

    With that all said, as she and some others have been increasingly hostile to Labour, many members have become increasingly hostile back. There's a lot of hostility about the fact that she's a well off, privately schooled Londoner who got parachuted into a working class northern England safe Labour seat because she was dating Tony Blair's son at the time. But there's also been instances of hostility that has crossed the line and actually is beginning to drag anti-semitism into the party.

    This is one of the saddest aspects of the whole fiasco, as the party membership keep getting told they're anti-semitic for no reason these past few years, some views are starting to harden and actually become anti-semitic as the bunker mentality kicks in.


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    #894
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,148 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    quokula wrote: »
    That site is 404-ing when I try to put in an email address so I can't read the content. However, I know from previous reading that in every single case of someone being found guilty of antisemitism against her, those people have had no affiliation whatsoever with the Labour party (and a number have been members of far right groups - e.g. https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/luciana-berger-murder-boast-terror-offences-trial-1.467449 )
    You don't need to look up other sites. A quick search of her Twitter account will find plenty of JC4PM handles posting anti-semitic tropes at her and the usual conflation of her with Israeli government policy.
    quokula wrote: »
    Her hatred of Corbyn stems from the fact he once made a comment on facebook when asked about an artwork that was being censored, where he showed support for the artist, the details being here https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/did-jeremy-corbyn-back-artist-whose-mural-was-condemned-as-antisemitic-1.62106
    Here's what she says about that, no mention of 'hatred':

    She was the first MP to demand an explanation from Corbyn of his decision to defend a 2012 mural depicting Jewish bankers balancing a Monopoly board on the backs of the poor. “It was horrific so I sought a response from the leader’s office. They said he’s too busy with constituency commitments. I thought this is not acceptable in any way, shape or form.”
    quokula wrote: »
    Ever since that comment was dredged up, Berger has frequently attacked the Labour party and called it anti-semitic, and conflated abuse she's received from outside the party with the issue. She has prior form with this sort of thing as before she was in Labour she was on the committee of the National Union of Students which she also called institutionally anti-semitic, and which she also quit, and which was also subject to an independent inquiry that found no evidence it was antisemitic.
    Yeah, I suppose it is poor form to reject racism constantly. It makes you the problem. :rolleyes:
    It wasn’t until Berger got to the University of Birmingham that she first experienced antisemitism. “I received something in the post calling me a ‘dirty Zionist pig’. It was completely alien to me, but also a shock.” At her first National Union of Students conference she was spat at for being Jewish and, as she began to realise the scale of the problem on the left, she resigned from the student body’s national executive council in 2005, accusing it of being a “bystander to Jew-hatred”.
    quokula wrote: »
    This is one of the saddest aspects of the whole fiasco, as the party membership keep getting told they're anti-semitic for no reason these past few years, some views are starting to harden and actually become anti-semitic as the bunker mentality kicks in.
    You think that's the saddest part?


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    #895
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    One of the things I'm noticing is that all the high profile labour and former labour party members who are signal boosting this stuff are posting screenshots of anti semitism from facebook groups and accounts, or hearsay but nothing from labour party members. That screams set up to me.


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    #896
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,148 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Bambi wrote: »
    One of the things I'm noticing is that all the high profile labour and former labour party members who are signal boosting this stuff are posting screenshots of anti semitism from facebook groups and accounts, or hearsay but nothing from labour party members. That screams set up to me.
    This was posted from the Young Labour account and then deleted. The guy who tweeted the screenshot has since protected his Twitter account, so you can't see it now. Except some newspapers posted the picture as opposed to the tweet.



    10037256-6724087-Young_Labour_tweeted_this_in_response_to_the_Labour_Friends_of_I-m-43_1550656353411.jpg


    Can't get much more Labour supporter than Young Labour.


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    #897
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    This was posted from the Young Labour account and then deleted. The guy who tweeted the screenshot has since protected his Twitter account, so you can't see it now. Except some newspapers posted the picture as opposed to the tweet.



    10037256-6724087-Young_Labour_tweeted_this_in_response_to_the_Labour_Friends_of_I-m-43_1550656353411.jpg


    Can't get much more Labour supporter than Young Labour.

    Calling that antisemitsim is the equivalent of claiming that people have a go at Kate Hoey because she's a protestant.


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    #898
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,148 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Bambi wrote: »
    Calling that antisemitsim is the equivalent of claiming that people have a go at Kate Hoey because she's a protestant.
    If you don't see it there, you're definitely not going to see it elsewhere. I'll parse it for you. A Jewish MP resigns from the Labour Party and Palestinians are going to live as a result. Tio condense it further: Joan Ryan (a Jew) is responsible for the deaths of Palestininans. But something, something, Kate Hoey.


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    #899
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    If you don't see it there, you're definitely not going to see it elsewhere. I'll parse it for you. A Jewish MP resigns from the Labour Party and Palestinians are going to live as a result. Tio condense it further: Joan Ryan (a Jew) is responsible for the deaths of Palestininans. But something, something, Kate Hoey.

    That'd be Joan Ryan, the Chair of Labour Friends of Israel.

    The Kate Hoey comparison is very valid.


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    #900
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,148 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Bambi wrote: »
    That'd be Joan Ryan, the Chair of Labour Friends of Israel.

    The Kate Hoey comparison is very valid.
    Being the chair of an organisation that is part of the Labour movement does not by any stretch make her fair game for scurrilous attacks of that nature. And it completely obscures the nature of LFI which was founded to promote British-Israeli relations and strengthen ties between the British and Israeli Labour parties. Or that it is in favour of a two-state solution. At last count it had about 80 Labour MPs in its membership, including Barry Gardiner and Jess Phillips. Are they all Palestinian killers?

    The Kate Hoey comparison is not at all valid. I have never heard anyone complaining about Kate hoey because she's a protestant. There are a long list of valid reasons why Kate Hoey should be booted out of the Labour Party, not least because she's defied the whip to vote with the Tory government, supporting fox hunting and hanging out with UKIPpers and her opposition to the GFA. This is a complete straw man.


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    #901
    quokula
    Registered Users Posts: 3,573 ✭✭✭quokula


    It’s worth noting that Joan Ryan is not Jewish. And the fact that criticising an English white Christian MP for her political beliefs (and the fact she’s been caught on camera discussing taking bribes from Israeli donors to act in the interest of the Israeli government) can be twisted into being called Antisemitism shows just how ridiculous the argument is.


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