Margaret Cash steals €300 worth of clothes from Penneys and aftermath/etc!

tuxy · 26-02-2019 10:46AM

Cryptopagan wrote: »

F****** hell, I thought everyone knew that poorer, less well educated people were more likely to have more children and start having children at a younger age than better off and well educated people.

Yup, all you have to do is look at developing countries and see how birth rates drop significantly as people become more educated and wealthy.

Ruraldweller56 · 26-02-2019 10:48AM

Cryptopagan wrote: »

F****** hell, I thought everyone knew that poorer, less well educated people were more likely to have more children and start having children at a younger age than better off and well educated people.

OK let's see.

Could everyone who looks at this thread (of which there are many) confirm or deny that in their own experience that poor non educated settled folk have large families?

Say they do. As a % of their respective communities (settled, travellers for the purposes of this conversation) would you say that settled poor non educated people have the same amount of these large families? If not why not?

Paddy Cow · 26-02-2019 12:24PM

Cryptopagan wrote: »

So what? It was common for the poor and uneducated to have large families before there was ever any sort of welfare system in place. Take away the welfare, and poor uneducated people will still have large families.

The biggest reason people had large families in the past was because there was no contraception. Plenty of woman would have preferred to have had smaller families but they had no say in the matter. Once condoms became available in the UK, relatives would be sneaking them back in their suitcases. The birth rate dropped rapidly once Irish woman could easily access contraception.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b · 26-02-2019 12:27PM

Cryptopagan wrote: »

...not having any money has never stopped people marrying young and having large families, quite the opposite.

According to the CSO, only about 4 percent of women in the general population have six or more children, while over a quarter of Traveller women have six or more. This can't be explained by poverty alone. If Travellers don't have any money, where do all those new cars and vans come from? Where do the lavish displays come from at weddings and First Communions? How are they paid for, if these people are living in poverty?

Cryptopagan wrote: »

So how do you address these issues among travellers?

1) Rigorously enforce the minimum school-leaving age of 16 across all groups in society, including the Traveller community.
2) The state has already taken steps to prevent people from getting married under the age of 18 (as of January 1st, the courts may no longer grant permission for under-18s to wed). The state now has to take the further step of not recognizing anyone under the age of 18 as legally married in Ireland, even if they were wed under the laws of another state such as the UK. Just put the foot down and say that we will no longer recognize these child brides.
3) Make child benefit and other welfare benefits payable for the first four children only. If you want to have 9 kids, go ahead, but you'll pay for the last five yourself.

Cryptopagan wrote: »

edit: just googling quickly, here is an article from 2015, in which an activist from the travelling community denies a priest's claim that arranged marriages among young Travellers are common https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/traveller-group-rejects-priest-s-claim-on-young-or-arranged-marriage-1.2101955

From the article you linked:

The priest who officiated at the wedding of a 17-year-old bride and 16-year-old groom, both of who were Travellers, said on a number of radio programmes yesterday he had conducted “umpteen” Traveller weddings where the couple was very young. Fr Michael Kelly of St Mary’s Church, Newtownbutler, said Travellers held weddings in Northern Ireland as the minimum age for marriage was 16, whereas in the Republic it was 18.

So, who do we believe here? A self-proclaimed Traveller activist who claims that arranged marriages among teenage Travellers are rare, or a priest who states that he himself has carried out "umpteen" weddings involving 16- and 17-year-old Travellers?

It might be rare for them to marry in the Republic, where the minimum age is 18, but a priest from just across the border in Newtownbutler would see them flocking up to the North where they can get married as young as 16 with parental permission.

Here's a parallel story:

Senator James Heffernan told TheJournal.ie that he wants the phenomenon of people under the age of 18 getting married to be examined as a matter of children’s rights.

“I was a Traveller support teacher in a school and young girls were coming into my class at 12 and 13 years of age who knew whom they would be marrying. That would not be accepted in any other element of society,” he said.

“It’s accepted to be part of a culture. I think it is wrong on every level for anyone to be so treated.”

However, Ronnie Faye from Pavee Point told us that the group had “never heard of a girl as young as 12 or 13 knowing who she would marry”.

See the pattern here? People in the know (in this case a priest and a Traveller support teacher) come out and say that it's common for Travellers to marry at a very young age, and even common for girls aged 12 or 13 to have a husband already picked out for them. And then members of Traveller advocacy organizations come out to deny that this goes on.

When faced with a practice within the Traveller community that advocates know is wrong, they will either (a) deny that it happens, (b) somehow try to blame the settled community, or (c) say that those making the allegations are racists. This is what Pavee Point and other groups do for a living -- deny the undeniable and excuse the inexcusable, day after day.

Mad_maxx · 26-02-2019 12:40PM

AllForIt wrote: »

Not sure what you mean by that. The last thing LGB activists would do is support exclusion. LGB folk have the same views on the traveller community as everyone else speaking as one of them. I would find it bizarre if LGB activists in Ireland are defending the traveller demographic simply because of a loose similar issues of discrimination. If they are, and you seem to think they are, I personally wouldn't share their stance on it. Not in a million years would I.

"LGBT" activists ( not regular ordinary gay people) invariably are from the PC Left ideological mindset, travellers are a high ranking sacred cow of the PC Left, it's why when you hear various **** sh1tt1ng on about "toxic masculinity" etc, they don't dare include travellers despite the fact that traveller men are thee most obvious practitioners of those kind of macho traits

Ruraldweller56 · 26-02-2019 12:57PM

https://www.thejournal.ie/vee-point-why-these-7-traveller-myths-are-untrue-849182-Mar2013/

This is probably a little off topic but for anyone who hasn't seen it already, Martin Collins of Pavee Point "busts" (by not busting at all but actually confirming) these 7 traveller myths.

In point 4 he "busts" the "myth" that travellers marry their cousins.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b · 26-02-2019 01:15PM

Ruraldweller56 wrote: »

In point 4 he "busts" the "myth" that travellers marry their cousins.

It's funny how the Traveller Consanguinity Working Group, in a 2003 study of Traveller marriage patterns, found that up to 40 percent of Traveller marriages were between first cousins. "Cousin marriage has long been a central element of the culture of these peoples," they wrote.

At the time, a Traveller working for Pavee Point said: "We've never seen anything wrong with it... We've always had cousins marrying."

Pavee Point has since switched gears and is now trying to dismiss consanguineous marriage among Travellers as a "myth." It's anything but -- and its impact on the health of the Traveller population is well documented.

KrustyUCC · 26-02-2019 01:22PM

Ruraldweller56 wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/vee-point-why-these-7-traveller-myths-are-untrue-849182-Mar2013/

This is probably a little off topic but for anyone who hasn't seen it already, Martin Collins of Pavee Point "busts" (by not busting at all but actually confirming) these 7 traveller myths.

In point 4 he "busts" the "myth" that travellers marry their cousins.

Funny how he "busts" the "myth" by saying marrying cousins was and still is quite common

ohnonotgmail · 26-02-2019 01:23PM

KrustyUCC wrote: »

Funny how he "busts" the "myth" by saying marrying cousins was and still is quite common

He clearly didnt get the concept of busting myths.

Cryptopagan · 26-02-2019 01:32PM

Rex Tasteless Gutter wrote: »

According to the CSO, only about 4 percent of women in the general population have six or more children, while over a quarter of Traveller women have six or more. This can't be explained by poverty alone. If Travellers don't have any money, where do all those new cars and vans come from? Where do the lavish displays come from at weddings and First Communions? How are they paid for, if these people are living in poverty?

Sure that figure only tells us that it’s much more common for Traveller women to have 6 or more children than the settled population; it doesn’t say anything about poverty. For example, if 4% of women in Ireland live in poverty, and more than 25% of Traveller women live in poverty, then the rates of women having 6 or more children might be much the same.

As for the communions and vans, I don’t know where the money came from; why don’t you ask a Traveller next time you see one with a fancy new van? I mean, I’ve seen Travellers who own their own homes living in perfectly nice towns, but most of the Travellers I’ve seen didn’t look like people with any wealth worth speaking of. Maybe it’s all fake news about them being a marginalized group with little wealth, but I kind of doubt it somehow.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b · 26-02-2019 01:47PM

Cryptopagan wrote: »

For example, if 4% of women in Ireland live in poverty...

Actually, the CSO finds that 47.9 of Irish women are at risk of poverty before social transfers, and 16.4 of women are at risk of poverty even after social transfers. And yet only 4 percent of settled women have 6+ children.

Like it or not, this is not an economic phenomenon, but a cultural one. Travellers get married young and often don't use birth control for religious reasons, so no surprise that the proportion of Traveller women with 6+ children is so high.

corks finest · 26-02-2019 06:45PM

Ruraldweller56 wrote: »

Cryptopagan wrote: »

F****** hell, I thought everyone knew that poorer, less well educated people were more likely to have more children and start having children at a younger age than better off and well educated people.

OK let's see.

Could everyone who looks at this thread (of which there are many) confirm or deny that in their own experience that poor non educated settled folk have large families?

Say they do. As a % of their respective communities (settled, travellers for the purposes of this conversation) would you say that settled poor non educated people have the same amount of these large families? If not why not?

No definitely not

Ruraldweller56 · 26-02-2019 06:51PM

corks finest wrote: »

No definitely not

The vast majority of poor, uneducated settled people I know break their holes in low paying jobs just to stay above board.

They know better than to be popping out 6 and 7 and 8 children

Mad_maxx · 26-02-2019 07:03PM

Cryptopagan wrote: »

Sure that figure only tells us that it’s much more common for Traveller women to have 6 or more children than the settled population; it doesn’t say anything about poverty. For example, if 4% of women in Ireland live in poverty, and more than 25% of Traveller women live in poverty, then the rates of women having 6 or more children might be much the same.

As for the communions and vans, I don’t know where the money came from; why don’t you ask a Traveller next time you see one with a fancy new van? I mean, I’ve seen Travellers who own their own homes living in perfectly nice towns, but most of the Travellers I’ve seen didn’t look like people with any wealth worth speaking of. Maybe it’s all fake news about them being a marginalized group with little wealth, but I kind of doubt it somehow.

Almost everything you hear in the media about travellers is fake news, the narative surrounding the traveller issue is entirely false and reflects the hive mind workings of the media

The Satanist · 26-02-2019 08:19PM

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Almost everything you hear in the media about travellers is fake news, the narative surrounding the traveller issue is entirely false and reflects the hive mind workings of the media

But sure didn't one of them get herself a PhD recently. That completely busts the myth that they leave school early!

Credit Checker Moose · 26-02-2019 08:23PM

1 in a 1000 proves nothing. There are always exceptions to every rule.

Mad_maxx · 26-02-2019 09:20PM

The Satanist wrote: »

But sure didn't one of them get herself a PhD recently. That completely busts the myth that they leave school early!

PhD in grievance mongering

Dante7 · 26-02-2019 11:48PM

It's hard to know what to make of this.

http://www.react365.com/5c7590b5e242f/two-travellers-raped-in-portlaoise-prison.html

Dtp1979 · 26-02-2019 11:51PM

Dante7 wrote: »

It's hard to know what to make of this.

http://www.react365.com/5c7590b5e242f/two-travellers-raped-in-portlaoise-prison.html

Judging by the quality of the writing....

Effects · 26-02-2019 11:52PM

Ruraldweller56 wrote: »

This is probably a little off topic but for anyone who hasn't seen it already, Martin Collins of Pavee Point "busts" (by not busting at all but actually confirming) these 7 traveller myths.

You're literally the 14th person to post that link in this thread. Got any new material?

Dante7 · 26-02-2019 11:52PM

Original post may have been removed. Here's a screenshot.

https://i.imgur.com/0Y0i1yS.png

sligojoek · 27-02-2019 12:10AM

Dante7 wrote: »

Original post may have been removed. Here's a screenshot.

https://i.imgur.com/0Y0i1yS.png

What the actual fuck?

tuxy · 27-02-2019 12:31AM

jmreire · 27-02-2019 12:45AM

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Really? My parents are in their 70's no arranged marriage, this also goes for all my aunt's/uncles. My grand parents and great grandparents same thing no arranged marriage. Never heard anyone male this claim before. What age are your parents?

It was very common in years gone by. Matchmaking was a very respected occupation, and there was at least one in every Parish. It was strictly regulated too ( even if the rules were unwritten, as far as I know ) The Matchmaker made his living from this, and his success depended on making good matches. People would be prepared to travel outside their own Parishes to meet a matchmaker with a good "track record " . I don't remember the exact rule's or condition's, but say there was a family with a son or daughter who for one reason or another, wanted to get married, then a representative from that Family would visit the local Matchmaker and discuss the matter with him. The social standing, financial position, general health, and appearance of the prospective Bride / Groom would all be discussed in detail. He or She would then be placed on the matchmaker's "Book's". A matchmaker would also have to be a good genealogist, and know by heart the histories of most of the families in the Parish. After a lot of consideration, the matchmaker would present the family with a list of possible marriage candidate's ( who would all have to be in the same social bracket ) They would make their choice, and the matchmaker would then approach the selected Family, and if they were agreeable to the match, then serious negotiations would begin, with the matchmaker being the facilitator. If it all went OK, and a match was made, then on the day of the Wedding..the Matchmaker was paid a set fee ( how this was arrived at, was another story) The next payment was when a child was born, and that depended on if it was a Boy or a Girl..I think that for each subsequent child, there was a payment made also. These matchmaker's would be very knowledgeable in the affairs and history of the area they lived in, They would have been very well regarded too. I remember a couple, where the 1st Husband died at an early age, and when she married again, it was arranged by the Matchmaker, and it worked out fine too. In County Clare, each September there is the annual matchmaking festival held in Lisdoonvarna, and it works out fine too.:) So while it's had it's heyday, there was a time when it was very common and a recognized way to do business.

Wibbs · 27-02-2019 12:54AM

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Really? My parents are in their 70's no arranged marriage, this also goes for all my aunt's/uncles. My grand parents and great grandparents same thing no arranged marriage. Never heard anyone male this claim before. What age are your parents?

See the above post from JM, it happened alright and on the pretty regular to one degree or other, but it was much more a rural thing, and yep up until fairly recently, but if your family were longstanding urban it was far less in play. Until quite recently the divide between rule and urban Irish culture was quite marked in certain areas.

jmreire · 27-02-2019 01:06AM

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Were your grandparents also first cousins?

One of the qualification's a good matchmaker had to have,was an in depth knowledge of the local Families that he dealt with,,,and that would preclude cousins marrying. He would also be expected to know the health status of his "Customer's" if there was history of any kind of abnormality, he would know it, and it would not be good for his reputation if any degree's of kinship were discovered afterward's

jmreire · 27-02-2019 01:20AM

Ruraldweller56 wrote: »

The vast majority of poor, uneducated settled people I know break their holes in low paying jobs just to stay above board.

They know better than to be popping out 6 and 7 and 8 children

Now it's different of course, but once upon a time, Pregnancy was considered to be the normal state of the Woman...rich or poor ( but it seemed that the wealthier segment had less pregnancy's )This was mainly due to Church teaching, and lack of effective contraception, Now times have changed, and it's very rare for settled women to have large Families, be they rich or poor, but Travellers are still locked into having large families though, so for them it's cultural.

Jerichoholic · 27-02-2019 09:41AM

More children = more free money. It's that simple. There's nothing "cultural" about it at all.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b · 27-02-2019 09:46AM

jmreire wrote: »

Now it's different of course, but once upon a time, Pregnancy was considered to be the normal state of the Woman...rich or poor ( but it seemed that the wealthier segment had less pregnancy's )This was mainly due to Church teaching, and lack of effective contraception, Now times have changed, and it's very rare for settled women to have large Families, be they rich or poor, but Travellers are still locked into having large families though, so for them it's cultural.

The general trend in society over the past half-century is for increasing numbers of women to get educations, enter the workforce, marry later, and have fewer children. Fifty years ago, the average Irish bride was 23 years old and the fertility rate was around 3.8. Today, the average Irish woman is over 30 when she has her first child, the average bride is 32, and the fertility rate is around 1.8.

This means that Travellers are quite literally living in the past. They are not getting educations, not entering the workforce, marrying young, and having many more children than their settled peers.

The problem is that this is not necessarily by choice. Children are being taken out of school early, deprived of an education, and pushed into arranged marriages while they are still kids -- all in the interests of perpetuating the all-important Traveller culture.

Many on the left will defend Traveller culture to the hilt, and are reluctant to criticize any aspect of it for fear of seeming racist. But how many of them would want their own daughter, at the age of 16 or 17, to be illiterate, married to her cousin, pregnant, and living in a caravan?

That would be a nightmare scenario for many parents. So if you wouldn't want this kind of future for your own daughter, don't condone people doing it to other girls in the name of "culture."

Quazzie · 27-02-2019 10:19AM

Dante7 wrote: »

It's hard to know what to make of this.

http://www.react365.com/5c7590b5e242f/two-travellers-raped-in-portlaoise-prison.html

If there was so many condoms lying around the place, how come there was sperm in the guys ass?

Margaret Cash steals €300 worth of clothes from Penneys and aftermath/etc!

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