Memories of corporal punishment

4ensic15 · 21-02-2019 08:03PM

judeboy101 wrote: »

Standing in the corner when bold, and getting a choice of 10 slaps with the soft ruler or 1 with the steel tipped one. Ironically there was no adhd, asd or Add back then, homework always done, no one late for school and classes quiet as mouses. Best days of my life.

Pity you didn't learn anything though.

whisky_galore · 21-02-2019 08:22PM

JupiterKid wrote: »

When Ireland started to modernise and develop in the 1960s and 1970s there was the opportunity to wrest control of health and education from the church but it was not taken due to political cowardice.

Or rather, the vast majority of people saw nothing wrong with the status quo. The place was still fiercely Catholic into the 1980s and beyond until the cracks in the façade couldn't be ignored anymore.

realitykeeper · 21-02-2019 10:02PM

whisky_galore wrote: »

Or rather, the vast majority of people saw nothing wrong with the status quo. The place was still fiercely Catholic into the 1980s and beyond until the cracks in the façade couldn't be ignored anymore.

I remain staunchly Catholic and even if I had best molested by a Priest or beaten to pulp by a brother, I would still be staunchly Catholic but thats just me.

Lay teachers were the most violent in my experience but I think it is really important for the victims of corporal punishment to forgive for their own sake.

JupiterKid · 21-02-2019 10:13PM

realitykeeper wrote: »

whisky_galore wrote: »

Or rather, the vast majority of people saw nothing wrong with the status quo. The place was still fiercely Catholic into the 1980s and beyond until the cracks in the façade couldn't be ignored anymore.

I remain staunchly Catholic and even if I had best molested by a Priest or beaten to pulp by a brother, I would still be staunchly Catholic but thats just me.

Lay teachers were the most violent in my experience but I think it is really important for the victims of corporal punishment to forgive for their own sake.

Easy to opine if you thought the odd belt of the leather strap, cutting comment or clatter did you little harm, but I can see how some who who had horrendous physical or sexual abuse meted out to them by teachers and persons in authority cannot forgive their abusers for what they did.

road_high · 22-02-2019 12:55AM

realitykeeper wrote: »

I remain staunchly Catholic and even if I had best molested by a Priest or beaten to pulp by a brother, I would still be staunchly Catholic but thats just me.

Lay teachers were the most violent in my experience but I think it is really important for the victims of corporal punishment to forgive for their own sake.

I’d say you would alright! If a priest was abusing you against your will behind the bloody altar. Get fcukin real world ya

lalababa · 22-02-2019 01:35AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Were you teenagers or primary? I can tell you now that if a teacher even tried to raise a hand to us in the late 80s' after the ban came in, the whole class would have turned on them- you could see around 83, 84, some "nearly did" but thought twice about it- it would have meant their job if they hit us and they knew that and we all knew that. I'm in disbelief that hitting kids went on after 1982.
I never experienced it. Even teachers who would be prone to throwing chalk sticks at people who were cheeky stopped soon after- the risk was just too much.

Twas alive and well in my days to '94

youcantakethat · 22-02-2019 02:02AM

Corporal punishment was alive and well in my school in my day, I remember getting whacked on the head by the teacher for something during Irish class.

sligojoek · 22-02-2019 02:32AM

sligojoek wrote: »

I did primary school in Nenagh CBS in the 70s. I'd be here all night telling stories if I had the time. One of the worst things I saw was this:

I was in 5th class when we got a new headmaster, as if the last cunt wasn't bad enough. He was a brutal bastard . If you saw him running from the pre-fab to the main building some poor fucker was gonna get it bad. The heavy leather strap was his weapon of choice. Near the end of term 2 of the 6th class lads broke into the school one night and stole all the leathers from the classrooms. Thanks to some lick holes the two culprits were identified and the whole school was brought out to the playground and made stand around in a circle. C***** the headmaster sent another brother into his office for two new leathers. The two boys were whacked on the arse and legs from one end of the playground to the other.

.

https://www.google.com/search?q=gary+creevey+principal&rlz=1C1CHBF_enIE734IE734&oq=gary+&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j35i39j0l4.6060j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Same guy.

sligojoek · 22-02-2019 02:36AM

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/three-months-jail-for-assault-1.1254336

4ensic15 · 22-02-2019 07:56AM

When I was at school, only people who deserved it got corporal punishment.

Plumbthedepths · 22-02-2019 08:53AM

4ensic15 wrote:

When I was at school, only people who deserved it got corporal punishment.

Says alot about a person when they can try and justify to the physical abuse of a child.

....... · 22-02-2019 09:18AM

4ensic15 wrote: »

When I was at school, only people who deserved it got corporal punishment.

How is life under the bridge?

doolox · 22-02-2019 09:34AM

In an ideal world it should never be used, especially by strangers and people bigger than the victim.

Only in cases of safety being at risk, where someone is about to assault someone else, such as dealt with by bouncers and riot police and prison staff, should physical force be used to contain or prevent further danger.

I would draw the line at parents who at times have to prevent a child running into grave and immediate danger such as wandering onto a road or putting their hand on a hot stovetop etc.

All that corporal punishment does is teach people the erroneous lesson that might is right and the big guy always wins by using force, not ideal lessons to be teaching our young people.

Bullying and physical force methods of interaction which began in our schools have often been imported into the workplace in adult lives and peoples later lives, much to the detriment of the bullied.

EdgeCase · 22-02-2019 09:41AM

The law doesn't draw any lines. It's no longer a matter of opinion. Ireland has an outright ban in corporal punishment at school or at home. If you hit a kid for any reason, including if you're their parent, you can potentially be charged with assault.

whisky_galore · 22-02-2019 09:47AM

realitykeeper wrote: »

I remain staunchly Catholic and even if I had best molested by a Priest or beaten to pulp by a brother, I would still be staunchly Catholic but thats just me.

Lay teachers were the most violent in my experience but I think it is really important for the victims of corporal punishment to forgive for their own sake.

Whatever. You're a known troll on these boards so I'll take that post with a lorry load of salt.

doolox · 22-02-2019 09:53AM

...I've seen parents hitting kids briefly for things like trying to wander out onto a busy road or kids going near strange dogs or into other areas of immediate danger where a swift call to attention was needed. Not an ideal situation and the parent should have been paying attention to their child intentions and actions at all times but this is not a perfect world and people do not possess perfect attention to their tasks at all times.

I have seen security and retail staff call out people for hitting their children in public, ranging from a brief warning to desist all the way up to guards been called and the parent and child taken off to a non public area of the supermarket, presumably to be warned by the police on their actions or some other course of action.

EdgeCase · 22-02-2019 10:02AM

There are far better ways of getting immediate attention, such as physically moving someone away from danger.

All of this discussions were had. All of them lead to allowing scope for physical abuse.

Bear in mind if you go back a bit more than a century it was seen as reasonable to physically chastise workers in factories, flog soldiers etc and similar arguments were made by foremen and commanders about getting people's attention and motivation.

If your boss have you a clatter to get your attention, I'm pretty sure you'd be consulting the Gardai and probably a solicitor.

Domestic violence was also seen as somehow normal as were many other things we'd consider totally unacceptable now.

Society moved on and it's no longer acceptable. There isn't a legal position where corporal punishment is acceptable in certain scenarios or between certain people. It's legally considered to be assault and any defenses were removed.

realitykeeper · 22-02-2019 10:23AM

road_high wrote: »

I’d say you would alright! If a priest was abusing you against your will behind the bloody altar. Get fcukin real world ya

JupiterKid wrote: »

Easy to opine if you thought the odd belt of the leather strap, cutting comment or clatter did you little harm, but I can see how some who who had horrendous physical or sexual abuse meted out to them by teachers and persons in authority cannot forgive their abusers for what they did.

Forgiveness is in my nature and I thank God for that.

road_high · 22-02-2019 10:38AM

realitykeeper wrote: »

Forgiveness is in my nature and I thank God for that.

It’s easy preach forgiveness if you haven’t gone through the horrors of physical and sexual abuse yourself.

is_that_so · 22-02-2019 10:40AM

road_high wrote: »

It’s easy preach forgiveness if you haven’t gone through the horrors of physical and sexual abuse yourself.

Not always true. As with all traumas in our lives we need to move to a place of acceptance for good mental well-being. That can include forgiveness.

road_high · 22-02-2019 10:50AM

is_that_so wrote: »

Not always true. As with all traumas in our lives we need to move to a place of acceptance for good mental well-being. That can include forgiveness.

Yes but they’re very much an individual thing. Acceptance and accepting you weren’t to blame for sure, forgiveness is a while other thing

realitykeeper · 22-02-2019 12:00PM

road_high wrote: »

It’s easy preach forgiveness if you haven’t gone through the horrors of physical and sexual abuse yourself.

Yet people who have suffered far worse such as survivors of genocide manage to forgive. The simple fact is forgiveness comes down to a decision and a very sensible and pragmatic one at that.

road_high · 22-02-2019 12:29PM

JupiterKid wrote: »

Yes this indeed true - Ireland effectively outsourced education, social services and healthcare to the religious at the time of the foundation of the State but the religious abused their power immensely in those spheres - as all the enquiries of the past 20 years have proven - and held onto these services for far longer than they should have.

When Ireland started to modernise and develop in the 1960s and 1970s there was the opportunity to wrest control of health and education from the church but it was not taken due to political cowardice.

Yes but the Irish state was still funding them- the RCC are insidiously clever and like to infiltrate all influential aspects of society- Education and Healthcare being key targets. At least when Ireland part of the UK some of the worst excesses of their dogma was kept in check. From the 1920s to 1980s they had a free reign, more or less. They weren't providing "free" education- in fact they opposed its introduction.
Still a lot of work to be done, our state schools should all be non religious in my opinion- thereafter if people want religious interference then let them have that option.

road_high · 22-02-2019 12:30PM

realitykeeper wrote: »

Yet people who have suffered far worse such as survivors of genocide manage to forgive. The simple fact is forgiveness comes down to a decision and a very sensible and pragmatic one at that.

You can't compare- it's different for everyone. And i doubt all genocide survivors have managed to forgive.

Henry Ford III · 22-02-2019 12:34PM

I went to a Jesuit Grammar School in the UK - the weapon of choice there was a "ferula" - whalebone wrapped on leather.

I was a good hearted messer at that age so was a regular enough customer.

6 on the hands could be really painful though.

SusieBlue · 22-02-2019 12:54PM

Crock Rock wrote: »

I'm 28 myself but my dad is 60. His teachers are cruel and sadistic cunts.

The teachers knew who did and who didn't have a father figure and would bully the boys accordingly. My dad's dad died quite young. The teacher would often open your lunch and mock you for what you had, one teacher would take your milk and put it on the radiator to deliberately spoil it.

One of the teachers would mercilessly beat the shit out of you until he was doubled over with an asthma attack. He would also molest the boys and find the hottest radiator in the room and push your bare leg down to burn you until the boys cried in agony.

One teacher would use the boys as a duster and thrown them on the ground after wards.

One teacher used to mock a nervous twitch my dad had by blinking into his face and mocking him.

The teachers were evil bastards, if there is a hell, that is where they belong.

This happened my mam too.
She was the youngest of 8 kids and her dad died when she was a baby.

One winter when she was about 7, my grandmother saved up long and hard to buy all the children new coats.
Not an easy task for a young widow in that era.

When my mam came into school wearing it, the teacher dragged her up to the top of the class to explain how a b*stard like her was wearing such a lovely coat.
She kept saying she didn't know how my grandmother bought the coats, that she must have saved up, but that was the wrong answer, and for each wrong answer, she got a slap across the face.

Eventually, after enduring quite a severe beating, the teacher came to the conclusion that my Nana had either stolen the coats, or else was a prostitute.
She said this in front of the whole class.
She wouldn't let my mam wear the jacket during break time, it was confiscated. So she had to go outside in the freezing cold.

Another time she had a kidney infection, but as there was no one at home to mind her, she had to go to school.
My Nana sent in a note to the teacher to let her know she'd need more frequent bathroom breaks.
The teacher pretty much ignored the note, wouldn't let her go to the bathroom, and my mam ended up wetting herself while sitting at her desk.

The teacher screamed the place down, and pinched her thighs so hard with her long nails my mams legs were bleeding. Then she made her sit there for the whole day in her wet clothes, referring to her only as a "dirty girl".

How anyone could inflict such cruelty and humiliation on a child beggars belief. No wonder we have so many adults with mental health issues.

razorblunt · 22-02-2019 01:22PM

doolox wrote: »

...I've seen parents hitting kids briefly for things like trying to wander out onto a busy road or kids going near strange dogs or into other areas of immediate danger where a swift call to attention was needed. Not an ideal situation and the parent should have been paying attention to their child intentions and actions at all times but this is not a perfect world and people do not possess perfect attention to their tasks at all times.

I have seen security and retail staff call out people for hitting their children in public, ranging from a brief warning to desist all the way up to guards been called and the parent and child taken off to a non public area of the supermarket, presumably to be warned by the police on their actions or some other course of action.

I think I've posted this before, but when I worked in retail I remember seeing a Father give his child ~7 years old an almighty smack across the face. He absolutely leathered, the kid was tiny and the dad was a stocky ol' fella so no doubt had some strength behind him. It was quiet enough in the shop and everyone stood and stared in shock as the kids face started to break out in red marks from the outline of the hand. The kid didn't even cry, he just looked hollow from it.
I had to really resist going for the Father but in the end I told the security guard what happened and we asked the Father to leave the store, his wife and kids were still welcome but he wasnt.

Still can't shake the incident, the noise, the kids reaction, his face. What a cúnt that Father was.

EdgeCase · 22-02-2019 01:28PM

razorblunt wrote: »

I think I've posted this before, but when I worked in retail I remember seeing a Father give his child ~7 years old an almighty smack across the face. He absolutely leathered, the kid was tiny and the dad was a stocky ol' fella so no doubt had some strength behind him. It was quiet enough in the shop and everyone stood and stared in shock as the kids face started to break out in red marks from the outline of the hand. The kid didn't even cry, he just looked hollow from it.
I had to really resist going for the Father but in the end I told the security guard what happened and we asked the Father to leave the store, his wife and kids were still welcome but he wasnt.

Still can't shake the incident, the noise, the kids reaction, his face. What a cúnt that Father was.

If that happened after 2015, it would be fairly clear assault and the Gardai should have been called by security.

Assault is assault. Nobody would put up with someone slapping anyone else, e.g. their wife/gf or a random member of the public across the face like that, so why should they tolerate a kid being treated in such a way.

road_high · 22-02-2019 02:10PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

This happened my mam too.
She was the youngest of 8 kids and her dad died when she was a baby.

One winter when she was about 7, my grandmother saved up long and hard to buy all the children new coats.
Not an easy task for a young widow in that era.

When my mam came into school wearing it, the teacher dragged her up to the top of the class to explain how a b*stard like her was wearing such a lovely coat.
She kept saying she didn't know how my grandmother bought the coats, that she must have saved up, but that was the wrong answer, and for each wrong answer, she got a slap across the face.

Eventually, after enduring quite a severe beating, the teacher came to the conclusion that my Nana had either stolen the coats, or else was a prostitute.
She said this in front of the whole class.
She wouldn't let my mam wear the jacket during break time, it was confiscated. So she had to go outside in the freezing cold.

Another time she had a kidney infection, but as there was no one at home to mind her, she had to go to school.
My Nana sent in a note to the teacher to let her know she'd need more frequent bathroom breaks.
The teacher pretty much ignored the note, wouldn't let her go to the bathroom, and my mam ended up wetting herself while sitting at her desk.

The teacher screamed the place down, and pinched her thighs so hard with her long nails my mams legs were bleeding. Then she made her sit there for the whole day in her wet clothes, referring to her only as a "dirty girl".

How anyone could inflict such cruelty and humiliation on a child beggars belief. No wonder we have so many adults with mental health issues.

Christ they were such vindicative, poisonous bitches.
They always picked on the vulnerable or who they perceived as “lower class” even if you ended up in dire straits through no fault of their own like your poor ma. My mother would have quite similar stories of what went on in school in the late 50s/60s but not as severe as yours. When did that go on for your mother?
Id never condone violence against a woman especially but she deserved a whack across the head for that.

EdgeCase · 22-02-2019 02:33PM

road_high wrote: »

Christ they were such vindicative, poisonous bitches.
They always picked on the vulnerable or who they perceived as “lower class” even if you ended up in dire straits through no fault of their own like your poor ma. My mother would have quite similar stories of what went on in school in the late 50s/60s but not as severe as yours. When did that go on for your mother?
Id never condone violence against a woman especially but she deserved a whack across the head for that.

My mom got similar (although without the beatings) because she was going to a school in a more 'upmarket' part of Dublin in the 1950s/1960s and they had previously lived in Ballyfermot. The nun used to ask her where she was from and she'd give an address in that area and she'd say : no you're not! We all know where you're from! That stopped very abruptly when my grandmother went down and took them to shreds over it. My granny was not one to be crossed and spoke in an Irish version of cut-glass RP when dealing with someone like that.

She was only about 6 or 7 at the time but it was really putting her in her place and making sure that all the other kids felt she was an outsider or not good enough for them.

She also had a situation in a school in a different part of Dublin in her teens where a nun asked her to go to the toilet and remove her bra because it made her look 'like a big mammy'. You'd have to wonder what the hell they were thinking! Really weird thing to say / do.

Mid-20th century Ireland was a very strange place.

BTW: Convents often operated a dowery system themselves. You had "Lady Nuns" and "Pot Scrubber Nuns" (terms used by someone I know who was familiar with them). If you were joining the convent and you paid a dowery, then you were treated well, had good lodgings, probably went to university, might have found yourself a job in upper administration of a school or hospital or so on. If you didn't bring a dowery, and you just joined up, you'd be given a different colour habit and expected to do all the menial work - digging spuds, cleaning, stoking fires, that sort of thing. They apparently didn't even eat at the same tables or even in the same dining rooms!

So there were incredibly stark class divides within the convent itself, so it's not surprising they came out into some nuns' interactions with the outside world.

Memories of corporal punishment

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