Memories of corporal punishment

doolox

I thought this stuff only happened in my home town. Sad to see narrow-minded sectoral warfare going on in other towns in Ireland where different groups are treated as outsiders by other groups and humiliation based on perceived class differences was the norm.

In many ways Nuns were more psychotic, vindictive and cruel to the girls in their charge than brothers were to the boys in their charge.

Two of my three sisters have ongoing mental health issues, largely made worse by their exposure to the tender mercies of religious teaching.

I have had my own negative experiences but thankfully nothing illegal by the standards of the time, no sexual or permanent bodily damage like what happened to some people in other schools. In spite of this I still have mental health issues and problems with interpersonal relationships etc, dealing with conflict and people in authority, when the past comes back to haunt me and tempers can flare.

I believe that a more humane and professionally well run educational experience would have helped me grow better as a person but this was not available to many at that time.

I was blessed with a mostly kind and in many ways understanding father who guided me through the pitfalls and snares of life and in later life I was diagnosed with Aspergers Syndrome, the root cause of my anxieties, learning difficulties, and disciplinary problems and conflicts in school.

As an adult I have received counselling and coaching on a one to one basis on the ways to behave normally in polite society and avoid panics and outbursts, mostly brought on by little understood fears and angers in difficult conflict situations. In the past these outbursts and panics were met with severe punishments and assaults from people who did not know better at that time.

Today's educational workers and people in authority should now know better and not resort to physical force in their dealings with children.

JupiterKid

Yes the snobbery and elitism among the religious orders was very pervasive. I remember nuns and priests (not many as by the 1980s most teachers were lay) telling us in class how "fortunate" we were to have comfortable backgrounds but if we misbehaved in class or got behind in our schoolwork or failed an exam we would end up like the "scum, wasters and gurriers" (their actual words) of Ballymun or Gardiner Street.

Disgusting stuff. There were a couple of decent, kind nuns and priests but most were resentful, bitter and angry or cold at best. And they took it out on the children. The Catholic church has done incredible damage to Irish society.

EdgeCase

A medieval organisation structure that clung to medieval values. It's hardly surprising really.

road_high

JupiterKid wrote: »

Yes the snobbery and elitism among the religious orders was very pervasive. I remember nuns and priests (not many as by the 1980s most teachers were lay) telling us in class how "fortunate" we were to have comfortable backgrounds but if we misbehaved in class or got behind in our schoolwork or failed an exam we would end up like the "scum, wasters and gurriers" (their actual words) of Ballymun or Gardiner Street.

Disgusting stuff. There were a couple of decent, kind nuns and priests but most were resentful, bitter and angry or cold at best. And they took it out on the children. The Catholic church has done incredible damage to Irish society.

The RCC were one of the main driving forces behind Ireland’s class system and reinforced it in the classroom whenever they could. And in a particularly vile and dehumanizing way. These were the same cretins that would be preaching the Ten Commandments having leathered working class kids just for being themselves. There was a particular harsh edge to Irish society up to the 1980s that accepted this as normal

Edgware

EdgeCase wrote: »

A medieval organisation structure that clung to medieval values. It's hardly surprising really.

You'll get over it.

EdgeCase

Personally, I don't actually believe that Irish society was ever lacking liberal leanings. I think it was severely oppressed by a very top down agent : the church and a cabal of establishment types who supported that kind of society.

As soon as the church's power melted in an implosion of self-induced scandal caused by its own corruption and abuse of power it was a drip, drip, drip ... then a tidal wave.

The oppresser was gone and I think we are seeing what kind of society we really are now. Things changed very rapidly and for the better. It's a far more human and humane society than it ever was. In the past it was a place led by preachy, holier than thou types who tried to knock every grain of humanity out of us. They saw piety and obedience as virtues and nothing else.

doolox

Unless you have actually experienced it then it is hard to comprehend the sheer enormity of the damage done by these inhuman creatures on the children in their "care".

As I said before in this thread, my abuse was mild compared to others but I resent the fact that I feel happy in a Stalinistic way when I hear of the death of one of these teachers and brothers and I wish in a perverse way that their demise was as painful and difficult as possible.

This dehumanises me and does me absolutely no good but it is the honest and gut feeling I get on hearing the news of their deaths.

I resent that a human agency can damage me in such a way.

razorblunt

EdgeCase wrote: »

If that happened after 2015, it would be fairly clear assault and the Gardai should have been called by security.

Assault is assault. Nobody would put up with someone slapping anyone else, e.g. their wife/gf or a random member of the public across the face like that, so why should they tolerate a kid being treated in such a way.

No, this would have been 2002/2003 I'd say.

EdgeCase

Unfortunately, it's what happens when any organisation, particularly one with an agenda to shape, change and mould a society is given almost absolute power.

It's an era that we need to understand and a mistake we need to guard against ever repeating!

screamer

I don’t think you can blame the RCC for all of it. There were genuine bastards who became teachers to be the bullies. People not suited to teaching, megalomaniacs even. I’d say there still are, just now, they’d get the **** beaten out of them for hitting the kids. It’s a stressful job for sure and it takes a certain kind of person to excel at, but I’d say many were drawn to it historically for the prestige, guaranteed job and long holidays.
All that being said the other night I dreamt about the nicest teacher I ever had, as a grown up I was telling her she was the reason I loved school and I’d miss her so much (she was retiring in my dream) and I woke up with tears down my face. So for sure, there were and still are wonderful, kind, capable and inspiring teachers. We need more of them.

Ubbquittious

The teacher I had would never hit a child when the priest was around and he called fairly regularly. I was always glad to see him arriving because he would keep the peace. The church never did anything bad to me. But I can still see that teachers face red with temper because I didnt attend that funeral

realitykeeper

JupiterKid wrote: »

Disgusting stuff. There were a couple of decent, kind nuns and priests but most were resentful, bitter and angry or cold at best. And they took it out on the children. The Catholic church has done incredible damage to Irish society.

That`s not how I see it. You see God said:

“Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.

So the brothers, priests, nuns etc who were cruel to children were doing so in a personal capacity and not on behalf of the Church that was founded by God.

EdgeCase

screamer wrote: »

I don’t think you can blame the RCC for all of it. There were genuine bastards who became teachers to be the bullies. People not suited to teaching, megalomaniacs even. I’d say there still are, just now, they’d get the **** beaten out of them for hitting the kids. It’s a stressful job for sure and it takes a certain kind of person to excel at, but I’d say many were drawn to it historically for the prestige, guaranteed job and long holidays.
All that being said the other night I dreamt about the nicest teacher I ever had, as a grown up I was telling her she was the reason I loved school and I’d miss her so much (she was retiring in my dream) and I woke up with tears down my face. So for sure, there were and still are wonderful, kind, capable and inspiring teachers. We need more of them.

I'd just point out that at primary level: ALL Irish teachers in catholic schools were trained by Catholic teacher training institutions. They did not got to mainstream universities. There's only been some very slight change to that in recent years, but the majority still are trained by modernised versions of those same institutions that always trained them and they are religious.

So, if you're looking at primary school they were trained, recruited and employed by the church. The state just paid the bills. Management of schools, including HR policies in those days were set by the religious institutions that owned the schools, not the state.

jmreire

4ensic15 wrote: »

When I was at school, only people who deserved it got corporal punishment.

Lucky you....And when I was in school....unless your Parents were well to do...all you had to do was to be there. It was solely at the whim of the teacher's.

road_high

EdgeCase wrote: »

I'd just point out that at primary level: ALL Irish teachers in catholic schools were trained by Catholic teacher training institutions. They did not got to mainstream universities. There's only been some very slight change to that in recent years, but the majority still are.

So, if you're looking at primary school they were trained, recruited and employed by the church. The state just paid the bills. Management of schools, including HR policies in those days were set by the religious institutions that owned the schools, not the state.

It is/was a pretty sweet deal for the Catholic cult- they take all the power and influence, the idiot tax payers pick up the tab!
My only concern of full separation is looking at say England or the US- state schools have been pretty poor haven’t they? Or at least they used to be.
Also wouldn’t want to see the minority COI schools suffer as their religion is generally important to people and as a small minority needs protection due to the small numbers.

road_high

Ubbquittious wrote: »

The teacher I had would never hit a child when the priest was around and he called fairly regularly. I was always glad to see him arriving because he would keep the peace. The church never did anything bad to me. But I can still see that teachers face red with temper because I didnt attend that funeral

She was a pure nut case. Irish schools seemed to be jam packed with them in retrospect.

LETHAL LADY

I had a teacher in first class who used a length of knotted ash branch, that had been stripped of its bark and varnished, to whack both the palms and the back of your hands (if you were really bad like) as corporal punishment.

Even though she was a sadistic bitch, I still preferred her to my third class teacher who was just into slapping you hard on the back of the head when she was in a bad mood. Which was most of the time of course. Bitch slapped my head repeatedly against a blackboard because she thought I'd written the wrong answer to a sum on the blackboard. I hadn't btw. I remember being on edge all the time in her class. Both were lay teachers.

Watched another classmate have her head bounced off a church pew by a psycho nun for giggling during confirmation mass practice. That was scary due to the obvious differences in size of both of them. The nun was a massive bitch and her ferocity was obvious to everyone there.

I've heard worse stories of course but they're the standout ones in my memory. Also, even though they can't slap you anymore there's some caustic feckers posing as teachers still working in schools.

doolox

My father used to recall with horror that a classmate of his in national school who was not the brightest once addressed a visiting parish priest as "Howya , Priest".

The poor lad was too simple to use the correct and more respectful form and was not trying to be cheeky.

The priest made little of the incident but the teacher waited until the priest had left the classroom and then trashed the hapless pupil for his perceived "cheekiness". In those days no allowance was made for people with low intelligence or intellectual disability.

What stuck in my fathers mind was the fact that the teacher was at pains to be all sweetness and light in the presence of the priest and waited in a premeditated and predatorial and two faced manner to wreak his revenge on the pupil.

Dad always hated hypocrisy and was ashamed of himself for not challenging the teacher on his behaviour. His words:"I couldn't do anything" and his sense of impotent fury stay with me to this day. It left him with an abiding suspicion and fear of the church and authority and a cynical view of political and religious power as operated in this country.

joeguevara

EdgeCase wrote: »

I'd just point out that at primary level: ALL Irish teachers in catholic schools were trained by Catholic teacher training institutions. They did not got to mainstream universities. There's only been some very slight change to that in recent years, but the majority still are trained by modernised versions of those same institutions that always trained them and they are religious.

So, if you're looking at primary school they were trained, recruited and employed by the church. The state just paid the bills. Management of schools, including HR policies in those days were set by the religious institutions that owned the schools, not the state.

But what’s your point. I went to 2 primary schools. First the convent until 1 st class. 2 lay teachers and a nun. Then the boys school all lay teachers but all trained by the RCC with a very strong RC ethos with regular visits by priest (once a week) and all taught hymns in Latin.

Now there was no corporal punishment or abuse in either school. Therefore it’s the perpetrator that is the issue not the training they received. Like they didn’t start in Mary I and go ‘now before we go into algebra teaching we need to show you how to leather a child to an inch of its life’.

LETHAL LADY

4ensic15 wrote: »

When I was at school, only people who deserved it got corporal punishment.

Nope, just frustrated people taking their anger out on children in my experience.

gozunda

Edgware wrote: »

You'll get over it.

What type of a ****witery comment is that to make about anyones experiences :mad:

AndrewJRenko

doolox wrote: »

In those days no allowance was made for people with low intelligence or intellectual disability.

For some people, things haven't moved on too much.


I was in second class in a Christian Brothers primary school in the 70s, and went out to the loo, shortly after the lunch break to take a leak, with the class teacher's permission of course. I always had a problem with bladder control - still do, tbh.


The Principal's office was on the route to the loo, so he saw me. He slapped me across the face as apparently, I should have gone at lunchtime and then I wouldn't have needed to go in class time.



So a grown man in their 40s or 50s I guess slapped a 7 or 8 year old across the face because they needed to take a leak.



My mother came down and had some words, and he never bothered me again.

realitykeeper

Of course, there is something to be said for the stiff upper lip. Compensation culture is great for the lawyers but it costs society as a whole. Granted there is no money in forgiveness, I still think forgiving is under used and under rated. When compensation is paid to victims of physical abuse, the people who foot the bill are either people who pay insurance or (more usually) taxpayers who did not do the abusing. In fact, if everyone who got hit at school made a claim, the courts would grind to a halt for decades and we would all end up paying for our own claims (plus legal costs) because literally millions went through the education system.

Plumbthedepths

realitykeeper wrote:

Of course, there is something to be said for the stiff upper lip. Compensation culture is great for the lawyers but it costs society as a whole. Granted there is no money in forgiveness, I still think forgiving is under used and under rated. When compensation is paid to victims of physical abuse, the people who foot the bill are either people who pay insurance or (more usually) taxpayers who did not do the abusing. In fact, if everyone who got hit at school made a claim, the courts would grind to a halt for decades and we would all end up paying for our own claims (plus legal costs) because literally millions went through the education system.

How is it possible to post so much rubbish in such a short paragraph?

PopePalpatine

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

How is it possible to post so much rubbish in such a short paragraph?

When you're doing it with one hand on the keyboard and the other down your pants.

EdgeCase

I think you need to be very careful about just condemning "compensation culture".

While they're are excesses in the civil law system here, it's hugely important in rebalancing power. It's a system that allows an individual to directly challenge powerful companies, organisations and even the state itself.

It's also probably the reason why modern Ireland has developed extremely strong cultures are health and safety, child protection, workplace protection etc etc

I wouldn't write off "compo culture" as totally negative. The ability to sue in civil law is enormously empowering and important and has in many instances been the process that has put broken systems right here in areas like health and so on.

The excessively enormous payouts for petty stuff do it no service, but the fundamental ability to hold power to account and in check is a huge part of being a free society.

We've also had fundamental rights established here in civil legal cases against the state. So it's a hugely important area of law.

It's just a pity that the civil law wasn't used more aggressively decades ago as it could have dragged many of these abuses into check.

phater phagan

gozunda wrote: »

Oh I remember the days - how we would laugh when they beat the crap out of us. And if you went home and told what had happened - you'd get another clatter because teachers like priests could never be wrong. And still we laughed ...

I got beaten up by a Christian Brother when I was ten for smiling in class. We all were terrified in those days to tell our parents about the abuse because they themselves had been cowed into submission by priests, brothers, and nuns.

phater phagan

LETHAL LADY wrote: »

Nope, just frustrated people taking their anger out on children in my experience.

I agree. Only a debased human being would advocate harming a child.

phater phagan

gozunda wrote: »

What type of a ****witery comment is that to make about anyones experiences :mad:

Ignore the trolls. They're not worth your time.

phater phagan

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

For some people, things haven't moved on too much.


I was in second class in a Christian Brothers primary school in the 70s, and went out to the loo, shortly after the lunch break to take a leak, with the class teacher's permission of course. I always had a problem with bladder control - still do, tbh.


The Principal's office was on the route to the loo, so he saw me. He slapped me across the face as apparently, I should have gone at lunchtime and then I wouldn't have needed to go in class time


So a grown man in their 40s or 50s I guess slapped a 7 or 8 year old across the face because they needed to take a leak.



My mother came down and had some words, and he never bothered me again.

Yes the parents who did confront those sadistic teachers saw them slink back into their shells. They were basically cowards: as is anyone who harms an innocent.