Discovery 2x05 - "Saints of Imperfection" [ SPOILERS WITHIN ]

Acosta · 17-02-2019 12:13pm

bluewolf wrote: »

I love captain pike

I was sceptical at first. It just seemed like more Star Trek Into Reference, the way the movies have gone. And Lorca is a very good, strong character, like nothing we've seen in the captains chair before. But I do like Pike and its cool we're getting a season at least with him in command given that he's such a historic character to Star Trek.
Would like to see Lorca back in some capacity though. Still enjoying it anyway, even if it does have a few faults.

helimachoptor · 17-02-2019 12:14pm

pixelburp wrote: »

Yeah maybe that's the angle: was a little surprised they openly paraded Section 31 as a thing and as you say, it looks like there's a conflict coming between Pike and Leland.

Yeah would exoect some type of event that will force starfleet to not be so brash and open about S31 so that the later years etc there's a reason why they aren't well known.

alchemist33 · 17-02-2019 12:15pm

Inviere wrote: »

I'm definitely in the minority as not seeing it that way, that war was coming whether Burnham was there or not. She's guilty of mutiny, but not starting the war imo.

Totally agree on this. The Klingon faction engineered the war so I don't know why she gets stick for it.

Inviere · 17-02-2019 12:17pm

helimachoptor wrote: »

Yeah would exoect some type of event that will force starfleet to not be so brash and open about S31 so that the later years etc there's a reason why they aren't well known.

Enterprise though has shown us they were originally shadowy, secretive, and independent from Starfleet. Discovery flips that around, and then DS9 puts it back the other way again. It's beyond bad writing, again, as if a bunch of interns are running the writing room.

pixelburp · 17-02-2019 12:27pm

I think theres a panicked overreaction going on with the writing. There's a lot of talk about Discovery as a family, its morals and duties, but without any of the narrative groundwork to back up the words. Again, to bang the drum, they're telling instead of showing. So all the speechifying by Burnham rings hollow when we the viewer have had no real sense of this comaraderie - bar maybe the Stamets / Tilly.

They gotta clutch the nettle here and let Detmer and co lead some episodes ...

j8wk2feszrnpao · 17-02-2019 12:30pm

bluewolf wrote: »

I love captain pike

Anson Mount was great in Hell on Wheels; it's not a surprise he makes an excellent Pike. If ST Disc was to end after 3-4 seasons, then there's a ready made spin off with him in the chair.

alchemist33 · 17-02-2019 12:38pm

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Anson Mount was great in Hell on Wheels; it's not a surprise he makes an excellent Pike. If ST Disc was to end after 3-4 seasons, then there's a ready made spin off with him in the chair.

Sudden shock here when I now recognise him from Hell on Wheels. Wow!

Sad Professor · 17-02-2019 4:45pm

pixelburp wrote: »

I think theres a panicked overreaction going on with the writing. There's a lot of talk about Discovery as a family, its morals and duties, but without any of the narrative groundwork to back up the words. Again, to bang the drum, they're telling instead of showing. So all the speechifying by Burnham rings hollow when we the viewer have had no real sense of this comaraderie - bar maybe the Stamets / Tilly.

They gotta clutch the nettle here and let Detmer and co lead some episodes ...

There's a big problem there with the writers not recognising the limitations and potential of their actors. Whatever one thinks about Burnham, I think everyone can agree that Martin-Green is no Patrick Stewart when it comes to delivering speeches about what the Federation, this crew etc stands for. Yet they keep giving them to her.

At the same time they have totally wasted actors who are capable of so much more than they are currently giving them. Detmer is a good example of this - the directors keep shooting coverage of her, often in close-up, because they can see the potential there, but the writers ain't biting.

I don't have a lot of faith in Kurtzman, but he spent a lot of time working with JJ Abrams who understands how to get the most from actors better than anyone. Hopefully some of this rubbed off on Kurtzman and we might see an improvement in coming episodes.

Turtwig · 17-02-2019 4:51pm

Enjoying it so far. Though not thinking too deeply about it.

Seemed kind of hinted that the admiral of the federation getting Pike and Leland to "reconcile" was actually Georgiou using her "cloaking disguise" tech.

pixelburp · 17-02-2019 10:32pm

Hmmm correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the admiral one of those quick to go with the genocide plan in season 1? Plus, why was she on the section 31 ship at all (beyond budget / narrative convenience)? I get 31 are there to get their hands dirty but she seemed awfully quick to resign herself to that fact, and push Pike into swallowing it.

So, I wonder if the admiral is going to be the larger Big Bad here, in the grand tradition of Trek's evil admirals? Leland seems more like an attack dog, while Georghiu appears to be on a slow redemption arc; I'm theorising the admiral might be the one calling the shots to shadow Discovery. Maybe Spock knows The Truth, the murder charges are trumped up, with Section 31 out to silence Spock before he can talk to anyone (Pike, Burnham etc)

17-02-2019 10:37pm

Turtwig wrote: »

Enjoying it so far. Though not thinking too deeply about it.

Seemed kind of hinted that the admiral of the federation getting Pike and Leland to "reconcile" was actually Georgiou using her "cloaking disguise" tech.

huh... was that why the 'you're a long way from home'?
didn't pick that up at all

TheValeyard · 18-02-2019 9:45am

pixelburp wrote: »

Hmmm correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the admiral one of those quick to go with the genocide plan in season 1? Plus, why was she on the section 31 ship at all (beyond budget / narrative convenience)? I get 31 are there to get their hands dirty but she seemed awfully quick to resign herself to that fact, and push Pike into swallowing it.

So, I wonder if the admiral is going to be the larger Big Bad here, in the grand tradition of Trek's evil admirals? Leland seems more like an attack dog, while Georghiu appears to be on a slow redemption arc; I'm theorising the admiral might be the one calling the shots to shadow Discovery. Maybe Spock knows The Truth, the murder charges are trumped up, with Section 31 out to silence Spock before he can talk to anyone (Pike, Burnham etc)

This sounds exactly how S2 will play out. The trauma of the War and devastation of Starbase One, along with her capture has turned her to the club of evil admirals (what is it with evil admirals and Star Trek?) Could even see Captain Marcus maybe, before he becomes evil Admiral Marcus.

TheValeyard · 18-02-2019 9:47am

Turtwig wrote: »

Enjoying it so far. Though not thinking too deeply about it.

Seemed kind of hinted that the admiral of the federation getting Pike and Leland to "reconcile" was actually Georgiou using her "cloaking disguise" tech.

That be clever alright. S31 are using Discovery for some unknown nefarious plot.

Goodshape · 18-02-2019 11:22am

Heh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0F8bi1M1xfM

Rawr · 18-02-2019 11:38am

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

That be clever alright. S31 are using Discovery for some unknown nefarious plot.

Weren't there some mysterious "Black Badge" crew members on Discovery early on in S1? Maybe the whole ship is just a S31 project disguised as a regular starfleet vessel.

Goodshape · 18-02-2019 11:45am

Rawr wrote: »

Weren't there some mysterious "Black Badge" crew members on Discovery early on in S1? Maybe the whole ship is just a S31 project disguised as a regular starfleet vessel.

First episode to feature the Discovery (S01E03) had some heavily armed soldier looking guys with black badges. Don't think it was ever mentioned again.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Section_31_personnel#Discovery_crewman

Rawr · 18-02-2019 12:04pm

bluewolf wrote: »

i don't mind section 31 either. i bet leland is going to go off the rails and there'll be a big LET US NEVER SPEAK OF ANY OF THIS AGAIN
i'm only saying that because he was the bad guy in shadowhunters. he has that look about him
lol

Johnny Storm · 20-02-2019 11:37am

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

This sounds exactly how S2 will play out. The trauma of the War and devastation of Starbase One, along with her capture has turned her to the club of evil admirals (what is it with evil admirals and Star Trek?)

Could well be! Remember the first season ep where she featured a lot was called Lethe and as we all know Lethe is ....

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Lethe

Evade · 20-02-2019 11:51am

Johnny Storm wrote: »

Could well be! Remember the first season ep where she featured a lot was called Lethe and as we all know Lethe is ....
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Lethe

More likely they both reference the same thing, the ancient Greek spirit of forgetfulness and oblivion.

Blazer · 21-02-2019 12:02am

Christ it gets worse and worse.
I’d prefer if it was cancelled now at this stage and rebrand the Orville as Star Trek. It’s far closer to it than this pile of rubbish.

TheValeyard · 21-02-2019 8:58am

Blazer wrote: »

Christ it gets worse and worse.
I’d prefer if it was cancelled now at this stage and rebrand the Orville as Star Trek. It’s far closer to it than this pile of rubbish.

Then why do you keep watching????

Dave0301 · 21-02-2019 9:20am

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

Blazer wrote: »

Christ it gets worse and worse.
I’d prefer if it was cancelled now at this stage and rebrand the Orville as Star Trek. It’s far closer to it than this pile of rubbish.

Then why do you keep watching????

Just to say something on this, as it has been a recurring theme on the forum, but why is any criticism of the show met with a response like this?

I am a big Trek fan, but am finding Discovery a tough watch. There are various reasons for that, some of which is the acting, as well as how the show itself is portraying the Trek universe.

I suspect a lot of viewers are stuck in that catch 22 of wanting to watch Trek, but this isn't how they wanted it to be.

It is Trek Jim, but not as we know it. Everyone still has a right to view and critique the show.

seamus · 21-02-2019 9:23am

Not very in love with that episode. What was potentially a solid "ship in danger" sequence did seem to try and cram in too much.

Personally I would have preferred that Culber didn't come back. They set it up that way completely. He says to let him go, you have ten seconds before the ship goes under, he is technically already dead, you're talking to an echo.

No, instead these microscopic spores have a biological transporter made of human DNA and can just reconstitute him from it. Star Trek does this all the time, granted, but it felt really shoehorned in, really lazy.

Letting him go would have been far more realistic and offered lots of character building for weeks to come.

Can't say I have many strong feelings on the S31 issue (I never watched the last couple of seasons of DS9). It seems unlikely that any organisation with a black ops, people would know about it. And in times of war, it would be much bigger and better known.

It seems likely that the plan is as someone mentioned above; to set it up that S31 gets pushed so far out of Starfleet support that by the TNG era, only the very top brass known for certain that it exists.

I mean ultimately if Starfleet were to announce that S31 has been formally dissolved and classified, then in 10-15 years nobody will be talking about it. After 100 years nobody will ever be aware it was a thing. So it doesn't even need a handy "Let's never speak of this again" plot device.

TheValeyard · 21-02-2019 9:27am

Dave0301 wrote: »

Just to say something on this, as it has been a recurring theme on the forum, but why is any criticism of the show met with a response like this?

I am a big Trek fan, but am finding Discovery a tough watch. There are various reasons for that, some of which is the acting, as well as how the show itself is portraying the Trek universe.

I suspect a lot of viewers are stuck in that catch 22 of wanting to watch Trek, but this isn't how they wanted it to be.

It is Trek Jim, but not as we know it. Everyone still has a right to view and critique the show.

Some people just get a hard on for constant moaning about it. They watch it, to complain about it. (a recurring theme on here). It seems like a needless waste of energy. If you like it, watch it, if you hate it watch something else.

Goodshape · 21-02-2019 9:28am

seamus wrote: »

It seems likely that the plan is as someone mentioned above; to set it up that S31 gets pushed so far out of Starfleet support

Doubtful that they'll do this when they have an entire S31 series in the pipeline.

Inviere · 21-02-2019 9:28am

seamus wrote: »

It seems likely that the plan is as someone mentioned above; to set it up that S31 gets pushed so far out of Starfleet support that by the TNG era, only the very top brass known for certain that it exists.

The only issue I have with this theory, is that Section 31 has already been shown in Enterprise (some 100 years prior to Discovery) to be a shadowy, unknown organisation that operated independently from Starfleet, with perhaps only the very top brass knowing about it. Now, in Discovery, it's the opposite of that 100 years later, with Saru's sister probably being the only person who doesn't know about it. Then, by the time DS9 comes around, what, 100 years or so later again, it's back to shadowy, unknown, and independent. It's all very messy.

It was kinda hard to screw up Section 31...DS9 done all of the groundwork, there was absolutely no reason to bring the organisation so close to public knowledge.

21-02-2019 9:39am

Dave0301 wrote: »

Just to say something on this, as it has been a recurring theme on the forum, but why is any criticism of the show met with a response like this?

I am a big Trek fan, but am finding Discovery a tough watch. There are various reasons for that, some of which is the acting, as well as how the show itself is portraying the Trek universe.

I suspect a lot of viewers are stuck in that catch 22 of wanting to watch Trek, but this isn't how they wanted it to be.

It is Trek Jim, but not as we know it. Everyone still has a right to view and critique the show.

There is a difference in criticism and sh1t-talking.
I used to watch the CW DC-Verse. Started to rag on them after a while for the increased melodrama and terrible writing decisions.

Then hit a point where I plain did not like the shows.

So I stopped watching them and I did not flood the fora with constant negativity about shows. Why would I waste my time watching a show(s) I actively disliked only to confront people who did like the shows (even if those people did recognise certain flaws in the show)?

pixelburp · 21-02-2019 9:46am

Dave0301 wrote: »

Just to say something on this, as it has been a recurring theme on the forum, but why is any criticism of the show met with a response like this?

I am a big Trek fan, but am finding Discovery a tough watch. There are various reasons for that, some of which is the acting, as well as how the show itself is portraying the Trek universe.

I suspect a lot of viewers are stuck in that catch 22 of wanting to watch Trek, but this isn't how they wanted it to be.

It is Trek Jim, but not as we know it. Everyone still has a right to view and critique the show.

It comes down to a value judgement for each viewer of course. I don't believe there's anyone here who doesn't have at least one or two criticisms and reservations about the show. It's a far from perfect iteration of Trek, but it's Trek to my eyes and the good outweighs the bad. For me.

But if all someone has to offer is that they believe the show is unreservedly execrable, going beyond that balance between what's enjoyable & what isn't - a "pile of rubbish" at that - then isn't it just better for their own sanity and health they just stop watching?

Life's too short to waste it on something you're just not enjoying.

Blazer · 21-02-2019 9:50am

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

Some people just get a hard on for constant moaning about it. They watch it, to complain about it. (a recurring theme on here). It seems like a needless waste of energy. If you like it, watch it, if you hate it watch something else.

I don’t remember constant moaning about it.
Some people don’t like that other people don’t agree with their opinion of a show and this is always their first reply.

pixelburp · 21-02-2019 9:58am

Blazer wrote: »

I don’t remember constant moaning about it.
Some people don’t like that other people don’t agree with their opinion of a show and this is always their first reply.

More that if you think the show is a pile of rubbish beyond hope, why waste your time watching it if you're just not enjoying it?

We're obviously all Trek fans here, but if something's gone past 'hate watch' into full on 'I hate watching this', why continue?

This is speaking from experience: I didn't realise how much I hated some shows I felt I was 'meant' to watch / enjoy (eg, GoT, Walking Dead) until I simply turned them off.

21-02-2019 12:46pm

pixelburp wrote: »

More that if you think the show is a pile of rubbish beyond hope, why waste your time watching it if you're just not enjoying it?

We're obviously all Trek fans here, but if something's gone past 'hate watch' into full on 'I hate watching this', why continue?

This is speaking from experience: I didn't realise how much I hated some shows I felt I was 'meant' to watch / enjoy (eg, GoT, Walking Dead) until I simply turned them off.

Walking Dead (and Fear... even if it is a better show) are great examples.
Still love me some GoT though

Roll on the Wheel of Time

PhiloCypher · 21-02-2019 12:49pm

The writers can't win, Trek flatlined by Enterprise time because it had become formulaic in a time when prestige TV was exploding. So the writers justifiably try something different by having a main character who isn't the captain and a lower decks feel to the rest of the cast(opinions vary on how successful that choice has been) . In its first season the show, taking a leaf out of DS9 leans heavily into the serialisation that is the norm these days with its Klingon war.

The fans go mad.

"this isn't my Trek"
"this is meant to be Star Trek not Star WARS" (despite DS9s 2 Season long Dominion war)
"its too serialised" (despite DS9 being heavily serialised for lengthy portions of season 6/7)

Planned or not the writers course correct, they dial back the serialisation of the main arc and attempt to fit in as many classic trek tropes as possible(too many imo).

The fans go mad.

"this is not my trek"
"FFS another standalone episode, when are they going to move the main arc forward."

Neither approach has hit my personal Trek sweet spot yet but I've seen more reasons to be positive so far then I did after 2 seasons of TNG. And TNG went on to produce one of the most consistent seasons of Trek ever with its 3rd season(rewatching it as we speak).

Greyjoy · 21-02-2019 1:26pm

I liked the episode overall but I do agree that the "open secret" of Section 31 in Discovery is pretty ridiculous. They're strutting around in sinister black uniforms openly using cloaked ships. I also thought that Culber should have stayed dead. When he couldn't cross the 'doorway' back into physical space I expected a tearful goodbye to Stamets. We do get a really well acted scene between the two of them and it gives their relationship the closure it never had from S1. But that's all thrown out the window within seconds when they transport him via the spore creature. Again it felt like the writers over-compensating from S1 when they got flak for killing off Culber.

Blazer · 21-02-2019 7:11pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Walking Dead (and Fear... even if it is a better show) are great examples.
Still love me some GoT though

Roll on the Wheel of Time

Wheel of time? Are they making a show on that? Oh man bring it on. Along with the Witcher something to look forward to.

Anyway back to Star Trek. I enjoyed the first season mostly but god I hate Tilly. And the whole thing about Burham,even that stupid smile the navigator gives when Burham walks on desk. Apart from Suru and Pike none of the bridge crew matter a damn. Contrast that with TNG where you had Worf, Geordi, Tasha Yar, Picard, Riker, Data, Troi and this was the first season.
Can anyone name any of the bridge crew here outside of Pike, Burham and Suru?
They’re simply bland and uninteresting characters just to tick the boxes.
I’ll give it a few more episodes but if it doesn’t improve I’ll definitely be cutting it loose.
Amazingly now that the Orville has practically dropped the comedy act it’s a far better show.
I bet McFarlane never saw that coming.

TheValeyard · 21-02-2019 7:41pm

I would like much more attention given to other crew members like in TNG and DS9. Less Micheal, more of that robot chick.

Goodshape · 21-02-2019 7:56pm

Blazer wrote: »

Amazingly now that the Orville has practically dropped the comedy act it’s a far better show.

Off topic, but, – I dunno. I enjoyed The Orville last year but haven't been able to get into this season at all. Without the humour it's just feels like bad, cheap, pretend-Star Trek :-/

Think I watched up to episode 5. I'm sure I'll see the rest at some point but not really compelled to hurry.

pixelburp · 21-02-2019 7:59pm

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

I would like much more attention given to other crew members like in TNG and DS9. Less Micheal, more of that robot chick.

Ironically the one bridge member who got to go on the adventure, has barely been name dropped. In fact I can't remember her name tbh (she was on the away team in episode 2).

Turtwig · 21-02-2019 8:01pm

How many characters on discovery universe have shown knowledge of S31? Given how secretive discovery original mission was it wouldn't surprise me if the crew, who likely had previous clandestine experience, knew of other less known star fleet elements and organisations. That said, I find it disappointing so far the S31 implementation.

PhiloCypher · 21-02-2019 8:06pm

Blazer wrote: »

Wheel of time? Are they making a show on that? Oh man bring it on. Along with the Witcher something to look forward to.

Anyway back to Star Trek. I enjoyed the first season mostly but god I hate Tilly. And the whole thing about Burham,even that stupid smile the navigator gives when Burham walks on desk. Apart from Suru and Pike none of the bridge crew matter a damn. Contrast that with TNG where you had Worf, Geordi, Tasha Yar, Picard, Riker, Data, Troi and this was the first season.
Can anyone name any of the bridge crew here outside of Pike, Burham and Suru?
They’re simply bland and uninteresting characters just to tick the boxes.
I’ll give it a few more episodes but if it doesn’t improve I’ll definitely be cutting it loose.
Amazingly now that the Orville has practically dropped the comedy act it’s a far better show.
I bet McFarlane never saw that coming.

The TNG cast were bland archetypes at the beginning, albeit they generally got more lines as the problem solving was more collaborative in Next Gen. But they were no more developed then the Disco bridge crew is 20 episodes in(not even a full TNG season). Now they may well never be developed as well as the TNG cast eventually was, maybe thats just a sacrifice that needed to be made to try something different, but lets not kid ourselves that the TNG cast emerged whole in their Developed state in season 1. Geordie wasn't even an engineer in season one for god sake, he was in command red and working the helm. It took 2 seasons (47 episodes) before the TNG characters became the ones we know and love today and the show kicked into high gear in season 3. 47 episodes , we're only 20 episodes into Discovery.

Blazer · 21-02-2019 8:20pm

PhiloCypher wrote: »

The TNG cast were bland archetypes at the beginning, albeit they generally got more lines as the problem solving was more collaborative in Next Gen. But they were no more developed then the Disco bridge crew is 20 episodes in(not even a full TNG season). Now they may well never be developed as well as the TNG cast eventually was, maybe thats just a sacrifice that needed to be made to try something different, but lets not kid ourselves that the TNG cast emerged whole in their Developed state in season 1. Geordie wasn't even an engineer in season one for god sake, he was in command red and working the helm. It took 2 seasons (47 episodes) before the TNG characters became the ones we know and love today and the show kicked into high gear in season 3. 47 episodes , we're only 20 episodes into Discovery.

That’s why I included Geordi on the bridge crew as he was helm. But at least 1 episode in we knew their names etc.
It’s 20 episodes in on Discovery and there might be well only be 3 crew members on the bridge. It’s **** poor writing is what I’m saying and not very promising.
If it keeps up there’s a very high risk it gets canned and we are all Trek fans here. We want a Trek show on tv. And not that Abrams crap either.

21-02-2019 9:27pm

Blazer wrote: »

Wheel of time? Are they making a show on that? Oh man bring it on. Along with the Witcher something to look forward to.

Amazon show with Uta Briesewitz pencilled in to direct first two episodes

22-02-2019 12:27am

pixelburp wrote: »

Ironically the one bridge member who got to go on the adventure, has barely been name dropped. In fact I can't remember her name tbh (she was on the away team in episode 2).

owo? they used it a couple times in this ep iirc. actually i think pike calls her owo instead of owosekun

pah · 22-02-2019 12:35am

PhiloCypher wrote: »

The TNG cast were bland archetypes at the beginning, albeit they generally got more lines as the problem solving was more collaborative in Next Gen. But they were no more developed then the Disco bridge crew is 20 episodes in(not even a full TNG season). Now they may well never be developed as well as the TNG cast eventually was, maybe thats just a sacrifice that needed to be made to try something different, but lets not kid ourselves that the TNG cast emerged whole in their Developed state in season 1. Geordie wasn't even an engineer in season one for god sake, he was in command red and working the helm. It took 2 seasons (47 episodes) before the TNG characters became the ones we know and love today and the show kicked into high gear in season 3. 47 episodes , we're only 20 episodes into Discovery.

So true. This post is like an analogy for the modern need to have everything now now now

Blazer · 22-02-2019 8:31am

pah wrote: »

So true. This post is like an analogy for the modern need to have everything now now now

Oh please don’t even start. It’s like people here are completely oblivious to discovery’s flaws and refuse to even engage in any discussion that differs from their opinions. Sound like bloody trump supporters.

CramCycle · 22-02-2019 8:35am

Blazer wrote: »

Oh please don’t even start. It’s like people here are completely oblivious to discovery’s flaws and refuse to even engage in any discussion that differs from their opinions. Sound like bloody trump supporters.

I think everyone here has pointed out the flaws of Discovery, they are numerous, it bothers some people to the extent that they actively hate the show, which begs the question, why watch? They bug me but I still like the show overall, this episode was the poorest for me, but there are plenty of shows like that.

seamus · 22-02-2019 10:00am

I do think we've become a bit spoiled by the quality of TV shows over the last decade.

Disco has the dubious honour of trying to satisfy the need for high-quality drama and writing, while still keeping it feeling like "Trek", which was often neither, even in the better seasons of TNG.

The result I think is something that feels sometimes not Trekky enough, and sometimes not modern enough.

On balance though, we are 1.5 seasons in, and not a single episode could be considered as bad as the stinkers from TNG, DS9 and VOY.

Goodshape · 22-02-2019 10:06am

Blazer wrote: »

Oh please don’t even start. It’s like people here are completely oblivious to discovery’s flaws and refuse to even engage in any discussion that differs from their opinions. Sound like bloody trump supporters.

Pretty sure I've pointed out flaws in every single episode thread this season. The writing is poor at times, the camera work is aLl OVeR thE plACe, the philosophical monologues and other dialog are subtle as a brick.

I've no doubt I'd be doing the same for any Trek. In fact, I didn't watch DS9 for years because – as a diehard TNG fan – who'd want to watch a "Star Trek" show set on a space station?? And I never really could get past the wafer-thin characters on Voyager, or the episodic reset-switch that didn't make any sense given the premise of the show.

But, in hindsight, both of those shows had their merits (DS9 in particular) – and so does Discovery. I might evaluate it as part of the wider Trek universe later but for now, I'm going to enjoy the bits I enjoy and maybe point out a few of the bits I don't.

Blazer · 22-02-2019 10:59am

Goodshape wrote: »

Pretty sure I've pointed out flaws in every single episode thread this season. The writing is poor at times, the camera work is aLl OVeR thE plACe, the philosophical monologues and other dialog are subtle as a brick.

I've no doubt I'd be doing the same for any Trek. In fact, I didn't watch DS9 for years because – as a diehard TNG fan – who'd want to watch a "Star Trek" show set on a space station?? And I never really could get past the wafer-thin characters on Voyager, or the episodic reset-switch that didn't make any sense given the premise of the show.

But, in hindsight, both of those shows had their merits (DS9 in particular) – and so does Discovery. I might evaluate it as part of the wider Trek universe later but for now, I'm going to enjoy the bits I enjoy and maybe point out a few of the bits I don't.

And that’s fair enough. But it’s the attitude of some people and it’s common across a lot of shows in that they can’t handle criticism of a show and the standard retort is if you hate it so much why dont you stop watching it.
I criticize BMW hugely but I still drive their cars as I love them. It’s human nature.

PhiloCypher · 22-02-2019 2:16pm

Blazer wrote: »

And that’s fair enough. But it’s the attitude of some people and it’s common across a lot of shows in that they can’t handle criticism of a show and the standard retort is if you hate it so much why dont you stop watching it.
I criticize BMW hugely but I still drive their cars as I love them. It’s human nature.

I think you are a little too easily triggered by having your opinions challenged . We all see the flaws, I've pointed out plenty in these threads. But we are all individuals with different tolerances, what I consider a flaw, you might consider a strength, a character you find insufferable I might only find mildly annoying and vice versa. We're not all always going to agree on the same flaws, and where we differ I'm going to offer up my own interpretation, because this is a forum for doing just that. It's not me being oblivious to flaws, it's not me being intolerant of other people's views, it's my saying I think you might be wrong on this point and here's why.

Blazer · 22-02-2019 2:54pm

PhiloCypher wrote: »

I think you are a little too easily triggered by having your opinions challenged . We all see the flaws, I've pointed out plenty in these threads. But we are all individuals with different tolerances, what I consider a flaw, you might consider a strength, a character you find insufferable I might only find mildly annoying and vice versa. We're not all always going to agree on the same flaws, and where we differ I'm going to offer up my own interpretation, because this is a forum for doing just that. It's not me being oblivious to flaws, it's not me being intolerant of other people's views, it's my saying I think you might be wrong on this point and here's why.

I wasn’t having a go at you at all. It was a previous poster who asked why if I hated it why don’t I stop watching it. I’ve no problem discussing likes/dislikes about a show as sometimes someone’s perspective can change yours etc. But some people get all defensive about people not liking a show or a particular character and instead of discussing trot out the old “if you don’t like don’t watch it”. I mean how dare you criticize the show I love etc etc

Discovery 2x05 - "Saints of Imperfection" [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

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Discovery 2x05 - "Saints of Imperfection" [ SPOILERS WITHIN ]