MPs quitting Labour & Conservative parties discussion thread

Harry Palmr · 21-02-2019 11:12AM

Labour welcomed back Derek Hatton and then suspended him, George Galloway has sought to rejoin, if that suggests a party for tomorrow God help the British left (or the British non-right which might be a better way of putting it).

VinLieger · 21-02-2019 11:16AM

prawnsambo wrote: »

Anna Soubry is running James O'Brien's slot on LBC this morning. This was arranged before he went on holiday, so it's a bit of a scoop for LBC.

I wonder if she privately had an idea if the timing would work though, massive move by her if she did.

quokula · 21-02-2019 11:17AM

Cryptopagan wrote: »

No version of Brexit is better than being in the EU though; being a “rule taker” in SM/CU makes more sense than what May proposes. A UK outside Europe will end up having to “take” a lot more if it expects to negotiate an FTA with the US on its own.

To me, a Norway style compromise that leaves everyone bitter and disappointed seems like a fitting conclusion for Brexit.

It only leaves politicians and activists bitter and disappointed - the reality is that it would put an end to the harm Brexit is doing to the economy (though the damage of the last two years can't be recovered) and be good for everyone on the whole.

Staying in would be better, yes. But another year of uncertainty during a referendum campaign, which would still have a good chance of yielding a no-deal outcome, and destroy the political landscape yet further, is not a viable solution.

VinLieger · 21-02-2019 11:17AM

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Labour welcomed back Derek Hatton and then suspended him, George Galloway has sought to rejoin, if that suggests a party for tomorrow God help the British left (or the British non-right which might be a better way of putting it).

Galloway called the anti-semitism claims about corbyn and the labour party "goebellian propoganda"..... the mans a troglodyte

Harry Palmr · 21-02-2019 11:25AM

Two well known Tories poised to leave should May not change tack - Justine Greening and Dominic Grieve

markodaly · 21-02-2019 11:32AM

Leroy42 wrote: »

That there is a pretty damning indictment of Corbyn

Spot on.

I will always believe and history will prove this correct, that if there an actual competent leader at the helm of Labour when the Brexit referendum was being taken, they would have fought tooth and nail to remain in the EU, which would have made the difference in Labour strongholds in the north of England.

All this mess would never have happened, but instead, Corbyn does what he does best, which is sweet **** all.

ancapailldorcha · 21-02-2019 11:35AM

Brexit is going to decimate the working classes. It'll forever be beyond me how Corbyn can justify doing as little as possible knowing this. Ditto for the heads of the major trade unions.

Leroy42 · 21-02-2019 11:37AM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I don't think he's fine. Theresa May outperforms him every time. And a Blair or Cameron would have dismantled May.

Yes I know. I used your quote as a lead in to my point, I was actually agreeing with you. The fine bit was in response to an earlier post. I made a bit of a mess of the quoting I'm afraid, apologies if it read that I was referring to you.

markodaly · 21-02-2019 11:52AM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Brexit is going to decimate the working classes. It'll forever be beyond me how Corbyn can justify doing as little as possible knowing this. Ditto for the heads of the major trade unions.

Because he is an ideologue from north Islington. He is more in tune to turning up a students rally celebrating the October revolution of 1917 than fighting for the working class of England.

bilston · 21-02-2019 11:55AM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Brexit is going to decimate the working classes. It'll forever be beyond me how Corbyn can justify doing as little as possible knowing this. Ditto for the heads of the major trade unions.

My take on it is that Corbyn and McCluskey etc are opposed to the EU as the idea of a free market trading bloc conflicts with their political ideology. But there are a lot of grey areas. For example one of Corbyn's "six tests" is staying in the Customs Union. So yeah it is confusing.

Corbyn is clearly a Brexiteer, which in itself is a disgrace, and if anything is another reason why the referendum was completely flawed. Voter's were lied to, there is evidence of dodgy finances in the leave campaign, and one of the main figures of the remain campaign (the leader of the UK's main opposition party which was outwardly remain) was actually a Brexiteer. You couldn't make it up.

ancapailldorcha · 21-02-2019 11:56AM

markodaly wrote: »

Because he is an ideologue from north Islington. He is more in tune to turning up a students rally celebrating the October revolution of 1917 than fighting for the working class of England.

Yeah, he's a protester. Not a leader.

Thing is, he isn't stupid. He must realise on some level that Brexit means the end of British manufacturing not to mention damaging UK research, science, engineering and services. What does he think will replace them?

BonnieSituation · 21-02-2019 11:57AM

Hurrache wrote: »

Seems to be party wide, this is hilariously awful.
https://twitter.com/joepike/status/1098250673035071490

That's a horror show.

ancapailldorcha · 21-02-2019 11:58AM

bilston wrote: »

My take on it is that Corbyn and McCluskey etc are opposed to the EU as the idea of a free market trading bloc conflicts with their political ideology. But there are a lot of grey areas. For example one of Corbyn's "six tests" is staying in the Customs Union. So yeah it is confusing.

Corbyn is clearly a Brexiteer, which in itself is a disgrace, and if anything is another reason why the referendum was completely flawed. Voter's were lied to, there is evidence of dodgy finances in the leave campaign, and one of the main figures of the remain campaign (the leader of the UK's main opposition party which was outwardly remain) was actually a Brexiteer. You couldn't make it up.

Right but leaving it will enable the disaster capitalists like Rees-Mogg to enact project Singapore-on-Thames which means selling off as much of the state as possible with the NHS being first up. They're not morons, they must see this. If we leave at the end of March, there's a long wait to the next general election.

prawnsambo · 21-02-2019 11:59AM

markodaly wrote: »

Because he is an ideologue from north Islington. He is more in tune to turning up a students rally celebrating the October revolution of 1917 than fighting for the working class of England.

The most unusual thing I find about Corbyn is that he never had any kind of leadership role in Labour before becoming its leader. He's been aginst lots of things during his political career, but he's never seemed to have been in a position to actually do something. Until 2015. It's an unusual political career.

Rjd2 · 21-02-2019 12:15PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Brexit is going to decimate the working classes. It'll forever be beyond me how Corbyn can justify doing as little as possible knowing this. Ditto for the heads of the major trade unions.

Corbyn knows well the damage Brexit will do the base he supposedly cares most about as do most people, however he has decided the pain that will bring is worth it long term if it leads to him been in power.

At least with Mogg and Johnson, we know they have contempt for these people despite the tired cliches, however we expect more from the leader of the main left wing party in the UK.

21-02-2019 12:24PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Yeah, he's a protester. Not a leader.

Thing is, he isn't stupid. He must realise on some level that Brexit means the end of British manufacturing not to mention damaging UK research, science, engineering and services. What does he think will replace them?

he'll introduce new higher taxes on the rich to pay for state owned manufacturing companies that make things for no one, because no one will be able to afford it.

What the UK needs (and Ireland imo) is a party that represents the middle ground. Normal people who earn a decent living, but are widely ignored by the main parties because they either aren't rich enough, or poor enough.

This is something the liberals just don't do, or are perceived not to do. They aren't the middle party, they are a party of elites who are embarrassed of their position so over compensate for it. They also don't have any strong, credible leaders.

A combination of New Labour Blairites and One nation Conservatives would suit this role far better than the wishy washy Liberals do.

loyatemu · 21-02-2019 12:26PM

Corbyn wants to re-nationalise everything and take the UK England back to the 60s.

Honda closing their factory? No problem, nationalise it, and start build Austin Allegros again, sorted!

VinLieger · 21-02-2019 12:43PM

Its really quite funny listening to Soubry on LBC, shes destroying all of the detractors who claim shes abandoned her constituents because none of them will answer how they voted, more than likely because the answer is UKIP.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 21-02-2019 12:43PM

markodaly wrote: »

Spot on.

I will always believe and history will prove this correct, that if there an actual competent leader at the helm of Labour when the Brexit referendum was being taken, they would have fought tooth and nail to remain in the EU, which would have made the difference in Labour strongholds in the north of England.

All this mess would never have happened, but instead, Corbyn does what he does best, which is sweet **** all.

The only history that would prove you correct is a counter factual history in your own head. We don’t know what would have happened.

The political realities after the referendum was that it was sold as binding and the parliament and the bill authorising article 50 passed the bill by 494 to 122

ancapailldorcha · 21-02-2019 12:44PM

Aegir wrote: »

he'll introduce new higher taxes on the rich to pay for state owned manufacturing companies that make things for no one, because no one will be able to afford it.

What the UK needs (and Ireland imo) is a party that represents the middle ground. Normal people who earn a decent living, but are widely ignored by the main parties because they either aren't rich enough, or poor enough.

This is something the liberals just don't do, or are perceived not to do. They aren't the middle party, they are a party of elites who are embarrassed of their position so over compensate for it. They also don't have any strong, credible leaders.

A combination of New Labour Blairites and One nation Conservatives would suit this role far better than the wishy washy Liberals do.

The main Irish parties seem fairly centrist so I have no problems there.

Until the referendum and Corbyn taking over as Labour leader, both UK main parties were fairly centrist. Cameron had moved the Tories to a Centre-right position after Blair moved Labour to the Centre-left.

The rich will likely flee the country as they know what Corbyn wants for them.

What the Liberals need is visible leadership. Cable is not providing this at all.

21-02-2019 12:46PM

loyatemu wrote: »

Corbyn wants to re-nationalise everything and take the UK England back to the 60s.

Honda closing their factory? No problem, nationalise it, and start build Austin Allegros again, sorted!

****ing hell, that takes me back to my college days. One of my mates had an All Aggro, it was awful.

21-02-2019 12:52PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The main Irish parties seem fairly centrist so I have no problems there.

being routinely shafted by the tax man, while I watch the unemployed go on holiday and the supposed bankrupt property developers drive around in brand new Range Rovers makes me feel otherwise.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Until the referendum and Corbyn taking over as Labour leader, both UK main parties were fairly centrist. Cameron had moved the Tories to a Centre-right position after Blair moved Labour to the Centre-left.

The rich will likely flee the country as they know what Corbyn wants for them.

What the Liberals need is visible leadership. Cable is not providing this at all.

they had strong leaders that had moved them towards the centre, but as recent history has shown us, both are also beholden to their Trotsky/Eliteist base. if neither party can shake free of those shackles, then a new party needs to be created. The success of Cameron and Blair show that there is an appetite for this.

Amirani · 21-02-2019 12:54PM

Aegir wrote: »

being routinely shafted by the tax man, while I watch the unemployed go on holiday

So you're saying Fine Gael are left-wing...? Not sure what you'd expect this centrist party you desire to do, slash welfare rates is it?

21-02-2019 12:59PM

Amirani wrote: »

So you're saying Fine Gael are left-wing...? Not sure what you'd expect this centrist party you desire to do, slash welfare rates is it?

That would help, yes.

FF/FG are different sides of the same coin, both are really only interested in getting re-elected and feathering their own nests with money from the mega rich.

Sinn Fein, PBP and the AAA couldn't give a flying **** about people with jobs, unless they are on minimum wage.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 21-02-2019 01:04PM

Aegir wrote: »

he'll introduce new higher taxes on the rich to pay for state owned manufacturing companies that make things for no one, because no one will be able to afford it.

What the UK needs (and Ireland imo) is a party that represents the middle ground. Normal people who earn a decent living, but are widely ignored by the main parties because they either aren't rich enough, or poor enough.

This is something the liberals just don't do, or are perceived not to do. They aren't the middle party, they are a party of elites who are embarrassed of their position so over compensate for it. They also don't have any strong, credible leaders.

A combination of New Labour Blairites and One nation Conservatives would suit this role far better than the wishy washy Liberals do.

The idea that new labour blairites represents the newly squeezed middle is a bit of a joke. Look at new labours housing policy.

One nation conservatives hardly exist either.

Nobody here understands that the Overton window has moved. Thatcher moved it to the right, economic reality is moving it left. A blairite free market policy isn’t going to work.

Blair appealed to the kind of people who work in journalism etc.

Apparently he is going to lead the defectors.

Professor Moriarty · 21-02-2019 01:06PM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The idea that new labour blairites represents the newly squeezed middle is a bit of a joke. Look at new labours housing policy.

One nation conservatives hardly exist either.

Nobody here understands that the Overton window has moved. Thatcher moved it to the right, economic reality is moving it left. A blairite free market policy isn’t going to work.

Blair appealed to the kind of people who work in journalism etc.

Apparently he is going to lead the defectors.

Do you believe that Corbyn and Momentum can get Labour elected?

Franz Von Peppercorn · 21-02-2019 01:09PM

Aegir wrote: »

That would help, yes.

FF/FG are different sides of the same coin, both are really only interested in getting re-elected and feathering their own nests with money from the mega rich.

Sinn Fein, PBP and the AAA couldn't give a flying **** about people with jobs, unless they are on minimum wage.

Your version of centrism might not be applicable over the water.

ireland isn’t England though. We already have high welfarism and do not have the kind of poverty people see in the UK. Wages have grown until now with globalisation.

However your right wing “pro worker” sentiments are also part of the new paradigm, one where wages stagnate and you are lashing out at the bottom 10% rather than the top 10%.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 21-02-2019 01:10PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Do you believe that Corbyn and Momentum can get Labour elected?

Definitely over time a left movement is inevitable. Of course given the huge control of the right wing press it’s difficult.

quokula · 21-02-2019 01:13PM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The idea that new labour blairites represents the newly squeezed middle is a bit of a joke. Look at new labours housing policy.

One nation conservatives hardly exist either.

Nobody here understands that the Overton window has moved. Thatcher moved it to the right, economic reality is moving it left. A blairite free market policy isn’t going to work.

Blair appealed to the kind of people who work in journalism etc.

Apparently he is going to lead the defectors.

And the Overton window in the UK is way to the right of Ireland. If you ignore the headlines and hyperbole and look at the actual policies Corbyn ran on, it was a fairly centrist level of tax and spend for most other European countries.

The centre ground in the UK has moved way to the right over the years and generated levels of inequality that are unimaginable if you haven't lived there (I have) - this has led to one party focussing on blaming immigrants and the other party focussing on addressing that inequality. Unfortunately it's the xenophobia that has generally won out in the media.

Corbyn's acceptance of the referendum result complicates matters, because in theory reversing it would be better for the country, but the reality is that Labour don't have the arithmetic to stop it, and campaigning to do so would just further damage them in elections and bring the UK further to the right, while Brexit will carry on regardless.

What they do have the arithmetic for, as a number of moderate Tories will agree to it, is a Norway style deal, which is exactly what they've been pushing for.

Professor Moriarty · 21-02-2019 01:14PM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Definitely over time a left movement is inevitable. Of course given the huge control of the right wing press it’s difficult.

What period of time would you think? If Corbyn and Momentum maintain their ideological left position, how many centrist voters will abandon Labour? Where will Labour find voters to replace these lost Labour votes?

MPs quitting Labour & Conservative parties discussion thread

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