Memories of corporal punishment

19-02-2019 09:54PM

jmreire wrote: »

To put it in context, you have to remember that all those teachers, nuns etc were treated the same (or maybe even worse ) in their own day..and trace it backwards from that. So for them to behave as they did, was nothing new. To add to the mix, you had religious orders recruiting kids as young as 12 year's of age...so as adults, its not surprising that some ( not all though ) turned out as they did. Its easy known that there was not any compo culture in those days... or we would have all left school with nice bank account. In my day,one particular brother had broken the glass in every picture that hung on the walls.. he did this by lifting the unlucky ( on the day) pupil up by the ears, and banging his head off the glass. The broken glass was never replaced, so he just banged your head off the picture then, or the wall beside it. The classrooms in the school were separated by folding glass partitions, so each teacher knew what was happening in the other class rooms, but they never interfered, even the "Good" ones ( and we had a few of these too, but in the minority.) I remember one day when we were playing in the yard during a break, an irate Father, came into the yard, caught a Brother by the throat and pinned him against the wall, He gave the Brother a firm warning that the next time he laid a hand on his child, he would be back, and next time he would beat him so badly his own mother would not recognize him. For all his classroom toughness against kids, he was a coward ( as all bullies are ) But he never even attempted to teach that child again....just ignored him... but never once hit him again. One thing we all learned though, was that there was a price to be paid if you broke the rules ( and sometimes even if you did not...your Family's standing in the community influenced a teacher's behavior towards you ) So when you did leave school, you always knew that there were boundaries, and you had to respect them. It's something that seems to be lacking nowadays.

The story you mention there was not corporal punishment though, that was child abuse. Corporal punishment was about administering a measured slap with a cane, leather, stick etc for wrong doing. Not beating 40 shades of blue out of someone or embedding broken glass in their head. That was never acceptable, whether before or after 1982.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 19-02-2019 09:55PM

The modern age drugs children who misbehave. Who knows what the future will think of that.

19-02-2019 09:56PM

Sorry about that wrote: »

I would argue that corporal punishment did have a lasting effect on you, because you are not shocked by it’s use

Have a read of my definition of corporal punishment above please- it's a far cry from some stories here which are about violent physical abuse of kids- something totally different. People are confusing the two- they are worlds apart.

mfceiling · 19-02-2019 09:57PM

My mates school in Tyrone in the late 80's had some psycho teachers. Him and his school pals would be divils for "acting the maggot"...Nothing major just harmless messing.
One of the teachers used to throw digs at them in class...Proper punches to the arms, back or stomach. 2 of the lads in the class were hotheads and could take care of themselves. Your man is ranting one day and the pair of lads are talking away down the back. Down he comes and clatters the first lad with a slap, and quick as a flash the other lad boxes him square on the jaw!! (he was a farmers son and was hard as nails)...The other lad had come to his senses and he gets tore in as well. My mate said it ended up a full on digging match in the classroom!!
There were other occasions he told me where he got a dig but was afraid of the consequences if he struck back. Teachers held a lot of power back then.

EdgeCase · 19-02-2019 10:01PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The story you mention there was not corporal punishment though, that was child abuse. Corporal punishment was about administering a measured slap with a cane, leather, stick etc for wrong doing. Not beating 40 shades of blue out of someone or embedding broken glass in their head. That was never acceptable, whether before or after 1982.

Given the frequency of accounts and the total lack of cases taken against teachers, schools and institutions at that time, the sad reality of it is that is must have been acceptable. Otherwise these stories would be rare and worryingly they're not. It seems like it was just tolerated.

Sorry about that · 19-02-2019 10:04PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Have a read of my definition of corporal punishment above please- it's a far cry from some stories here which are about violent physical abuse of kids- something totally different. People are confusing the two- they are worlds apart.

Corporal punishment is the physical punishment of people, by hitting them. This is not civilised behaviour. An adult wouldn’t tolerate his/her boss correcting poor performance in this way, it’s even more unacceptable to inflict it on a child.

19-02-2019 10:06PM

EdgeCase wrote: »

Given the frequency of accounts and the total lack of cases taken against teachers, schools and institutions at that time, the sad reality of it is that is must have been acceptable. Otherwise these stories would be rare.

Oh there's no doubt in my mind that the acceptability of corporal punishment was a key factor in teachers taking advantage and displaying physically abusive behaviour towards school children that went way beyond any guidelines laid down by the department of education at the time- aka physical abuse.

To what degree this behaviour was tolerated, depended on the school in my experience. In my school, while corporal punishment was administered, violent physical abuse wasn't.

Plumbthedepths · 19-02-2019 10:06PM

Had the misfortune of being taught ( if that's what it could be called) by a bunch of evil 'cnuts' in black. I was left handed and that was a big ' no' for the 'good' sisters. Beaten senseless every day for 2 months, crying uncontrollablely every morning begging to stay home as a 5 year old in the late 70's until my father decided that enough was enough. He threatened to leave his size 10 army boot in a place that the nun would find hard to remove.
Meet another few sadistic b*stards both male and female in the primary system. The crap stopped at secondary, I was 6 ft in secondary and willing to fight back. Met a few of those cnuts down through the years after school, told one I would happily do time if I ever heard he raised his hand to a child again.

19-02-2019 10:09PM

Sorry about that wrote: »

Corporal punishment is the physical punishment of people, by hitting them. This is not civilised behaviour. An adult wouldn’t tolerate his/her boss correcting poor performance in this way, it’s even more unacceptable to inflict it on a child.

Oh blady blah- spare me the lecture please- I never said it was acceptable- but it was in place in schools up to 1982 and if administered fairly and in a measured way, didn't create long lasting negative impacts on pupils.

sanjose1 · 19-02-2019 10:10PM

Violence always leaves a scar you moron

Plumbthedepths · 19-02-2019 10:12PM

Deleted User wrote:

I'm in disbelief that hitting kids went on after 1982.

I'm 47 I was in NS until '84. I can assure you it continued after '82. As a class we turned on a teacher who beat a lad unconscious. The teacher was bundled out of the classroom to the safety of a the staff room by the principal. He signed himself into a mental hospital to escape justice. The year was '83.

19-02-2019 10:14PM

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

I'm 47 I was in NS until '84. I can assure you it continued after '82. As a class we turned on a teacher who beat a lad unconscious. The teacher was bundled out of the classroom to the safety of a the staff room by the principal. He signed himself into a mental hospital to escape justice. The year was '83.

Continued, but not without consequences for the teacher I'm glad to see.

Plumbthedepths · 19-02-2019 10:16PM

Deleted User wrote:

Continued, but not without consequences for the teacher I'm glad to see.

What consequences? he signed himself into a mental hospital for a few weeks to escape justice. He was never sacked.The boy in question suffered a concussion and dropped out of school a couple of years later.

Sardonicat · 19-02-2019 10:17PM

Sorry about that wrote: »

All the stories on this thread about violent educators have one common denominator; the church. The insane abuse of power is still mind blowing.

Nope. I experienced some awful physical and worse psychological abuse at a primary school in England in the 70s. Boys got caned, girls got hit with a plimsoll. Little boys got their heads violently knocked together. All par for the course in those days.

What was different was the manner in which it was dealt out. Over there is seemed very structured and deliberate; eg. "Sardonicat, for talking in class you will go to headmaster's office and get slapped at half two" Whereas as here you'd feel a clatter across your ear and then be told "Stop talking!" The psychological abuse and power trips were just the same though.

Allinall · 19-02-2019 10:18PM

sanjose1 wrote: »

Violence always leaves a scar you moron

So does online abuse.

blackcard · 19-02-2019 10:18PM

Getting the leather on both hands for not knowing the third person pluperfect of an irregular latin verb. One lad said one day to the teacher that his father told him he didn't have to accept punishment. Teacher let him off but tucked in to the rest of us to make up for this. That was just the way it was

jmreire · 19-02-2019 10:18PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The story you mention there was not corporal punishment though, that was child abuse. Corporal punishment was about administering a measured slap with a cane, leather, stick etc for wrong doing. Not beating 40 shades of blue out of someone or embedding broken glass in their head. That was never acceptable, whether before or after 1982.

Yes Plenty.. I agree completely, that what it was "Child Abuse" !!! But that expression did not exist during my school days. It was accepted behavior ( except by the one father I mentioned, who in his own school days was treated the very same way, and that's why he reacted as he did. I was standing right beside him when he caught the Brother by the throat, and his very word's were Quote " I remember ye Fking Barstewards beating me, and I an warning you now, if he ever comes home again and tells me that you have hit him, I will come back here, and when I am finished with you, your own mother will not be able to recognize you" Unquote. The stick and leather were in every day use, and dusters ( wooden blocks with soft fabric on one side used to clean the chalk off the black board, and as a missile against pupils ) I remember a kid getting hit on the ear with this "flying brick" one day... he spent the rest of the lesson holding his head in his hand's and sobbing softly. His ear was damaged as a result. but nothing was ever done about it, nothing was ever done about ANY of these abuses. A lot of kids at that time left school at 14 years of age ( was the legal age ) and more changed from religious taught
schools to the Technical School ( as they were then called ) This abuse would have been the main reason that these pupils left. I often wonder what would have been the outcome for a lot of "Leavers" had they stayed on through secondary education, and maybe even further?

19-02-2019 10:20PM

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

What consequences? he signed himself into a mental hospital for a few weeks to escape justice. He was never sacked.The boy in question suffered a concussion and dropped out of school a couple of years later.

I don't see how signing into a mental hospital allowed him escape justice but not surprised considering the year it was.

Again that's not corporal punishment, it's bordering on attempted murder.

road_high · 19-02-2019 10:21PM

orourkeda1977 wrote: »

It boggles my mind when I think just how backward that Ireland was. A lot of this was in the very recent past.

Twenty years ago or so! The new generation of teachers have transformed the thing far as I can see. Way more child centered and less of the fear we endured.

Plumbthedepths · 19-02-2019 10:23PM

Deleted User wrote:

Again that's not corporal punishment, it's bordering on attempted murder.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? At the time it was accepted as punishment. I have seen idiots justify this b*ll**** by saying "I got a few slaps, never did me any harm".

Sorry about that · 19-02-2019 10:25PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh blady blah- spare me the lecture please- I never said it was acceptable- but it was in place in schools up to 1982 and if administered fairly and in a measured way, didn't create long lasting negative impacts on pupils.

My goodness. I’m out.

19-02-2019 10:28PM

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Are you being deliberately obtuse? At the time it was accepted as punishment. I have seen idiots justify this b*ll**** by saying "I got a few slaps, never did me any harm".

Look I'm only going by the thread title here, nothing else. Corporal punishment, back in the day, meant a cane or leather or metre stick on the hand usually, for wrongdoing.

That's the thread I was responding to- people are now getting into stories that are much more about serious physical abuse in schools, way over and above what a few slaps of a leather was about which is what the original thread title suggested.

19-02-2019 10:29PM

Sorry about that wrote: »

My goodness. I’m out.

Great. Goodbye.

road_high · 19-02-2019 10:29PM

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Are you being deliberately obtuse? At the time it was accepted as punishment. I have seen idiots justify this b*ll**** by saying "I got a few slaps, never did me any harm".

I dont buy that line either- the odd slap from a parent certainly didn’t but in a learning environment where violence was used as weapon to “teach” then that’s a huge issue. These were very good, quiet kids i saw demeaned and bullied and indeed hit by a certain teacher.
Another day a chap was demeaned and ridiculed in front of the whole class because he kept pronouncing ships as chips!
Another chap from England couldn’t say R “properly” so that was an issue. He didn’t care less though as he was confident and sure himself.

Mam of 4 · 19-02-2019 10:33PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Look I'm only going by the thread title here, nothing else. Corporal punishment, back in the day, meant a cane or leather or metre stick on the hand usually, for wrongdoing.

That's the thread I was responding to- people are now getting into stories that are much more about serious physical abuse in schools, way over and above what a few slaps of a leather was about which is what the original thread title suggested.

Not nit picking , but for some the Corporal Punishment wasn't a stick , a cane , a belt leather .
It was a box in the head , a twisting of ears , a clatter on the face .

jmreire · 19-02-2019 10:33PM

Sardonicat wrote: »

Nope. I experienced some awful physical and worse psychological abuse at a primary school in England in the 70s. Boys got caned, girls got hit with a plimsoll. Little boys got their heads violently knocked together. All par for the course in those days.

What was different was the manner in which it was dealt out. Over there is seemed very structured and deliberate; eg. "Sardonicat, for talking in class you will go to headmaster's office and get slapped at half two" Whereas as here you'd feel a clatter across your ear and then be told "Stop talking!" The psychological abuse and power trips were just the same though.

There was no such structure in my school days.....every day had the possibility to get punished.... sure sometimes you knew that you had done something wrong and would pay the price....but on other occasions...everything depended on the "humour" of the teacher. I remember one day, the teacher lined up the whole class, except for 2 guys ( sons of prominent business men ) And he gave each of us 6 slaps of the leather..and this was not an isolated event. This was many years ago,,, but I still remember it. So yes, it was psychological torture as well.

AMKC · 19-02-2019 10:33PM

Nope never happened to me although I did have a teacher that would twist your ear or crap you by your tie if you were cheeky, said something bold or did not have homework done. There was another teacher in my secondary school who would throw chairs, hammers, them things you used to clear the chalk of the board etc. I honestly do not know how he did not seriously injure or kill a student. You could hear him shouting at the students from outside the room as well.

My Dad has told me of the punishments he used to get do until one day he said no more and stood up to the teacher. He was taller than the teacher bu that stage and never got any beatings after that.

thebaz · 19-02-2019 10:39PM

TeaBagMania wrote: »

, kick me, or use an instrument on me for no reason... its game on.
Guarantee you the next day teacher/priest would have an appointment with my one handed louisville slugger and might make it back to work the next day if the hospital found fit to release them.

Don't know how you people found the self control to tolerate the abuse

hard to be the tough macho hero, when you are 9 years old, and your bully is a 6 foot 2 20 something - by 16 he wouldn't have tried it

19-02-2019 10:39PM

Mam of 4 wrote: »

Not nit picking , but for some the Corporal Punishment wasn't a stick , a cane , a belt leather .
It was a box in the head , a twisting of ears , a clatter on the face .

Fair enough, obviously my definition was more limited - I didn't experience such violence in my school, other than simple cane/leather for obvious wrong-doing- but the stories being spoken about now are far and above that.

AllForIt · 19-02-2019 10:50PM

Ok, the seventies in primary school. We weren't beaten in secondary school in the 80''s although I did get one massive clatter once when a pupil beside me made an inappropriate comment and the teacher thought it was me. I probably deserved it.

In primary school, 1976 onwards we had 2 women teachers. The first teacher who taught the juniors had a cane in the press. Later it became knowledge it was taken away from her where she used a wooden spoon instead which was stuck in the sand bucket which we used to play with sometimes. I was the first to get a wollop of it. I recall vividly she left her desk to go for the cane (which had been taken off her as I said) and as she passed the sand bucket she said 'oh look what we have here, a wooden spoon', as if we didn't know even at that age what was going on as she tried to disguise that she didn't have the cane anymore. She really seemed like she took some enjoyment in using it.

I wasn't a bold child at all but I was a bit cheeky sometimes. I note that if there was anything that would incense the teachers most it would be a cheeky comment. I guess in those years showing a bit of personalty was frowned upon being the Catholic school it was.

When we moved classroom to the senior class there wasn't much whooping with a stick going on. One thing I won't forget though, and I hardly every missed a day at school, something happened at home that meant I turned up for school at 10pm, half an hour late. Class was in session and I opened the classroom door and said 'Surprise!'. The teacher got up of her chair, walked over to me and whacked me on the face as hard as she could. I recall being in total shock and quite hurt emotionally. I'll never forgive her for that.

Memories of corporal punishment

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