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2012 Olympic Champion Ivan Ukhov and 2013 World Champ Svetlana Shkolina busted after

  • 01-02-2019 09:48PM
    #1
    El CabaIIo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 354 ✭✭


    After Russia turn over anti-doping lab info

    The first of many I would imagine over the next few weeks as WADA starts going through the lab files. 12 total in this bust including high jumpers Ukhov(2012 Olympic Gold and 5th All-time) and Shkolina(2012 Olympic bronze and 2013 World Champion) getting 4 years and hammer thrower Lysenko getting 8 years for second positive. All medals and results from 2012 on have been stripped.

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/feb/01/robbie-grabarz-olympic-silver-12-russian-athletes-banned-doping

    If all the evidence on RUSADA is authentic information, I think it's possible we could see bust and ban totals get into triple figures quite easily in the next month if all the rumours and whistleblowers are telling the truth. If anyone hasn't a clue on the backstory of this, the documentary on Netflix or other sites called Icarus is a must watch, it's like a real life spy thriller and is an absolutely amazing documentary.


Comments

  • #2
    TFBubendorfer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,340 ✭✭✭TFBubendorfer


    Ukhov has taken stuff? No way would he ever take anything ...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lmr-tW4u0dY


  • #3
    youngrun
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭youngrun


    How were they not caught at the time ie 2012 ?? What were they tested positive for ? 7 years after the fact is crazy. What kind of testing is done at International meets or competitions ? What on earth was done at 2012 London in terms of testing if anything ? These athletes were competing all the time. Ditto in Rio with the Kenyan busts eg Sumgong, Jebet ? Was any testing done there at all ? Can anyone have any confidence in what they are seeing? .


  • #4
    Hurrache
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,455 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    There's plenty of testing results coming out still now after London 2012, the dirtiest olypmic games since the 80s some say, based on the number of failed tests from that event.


  • #5
    Chivito550
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,697 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    Hurrache wrote: »
    There's plenty of testing results coming out still now after London 2012, the dirtiest olypmic games since the 80s some say, based on the number of failed tests from that event.

    Say some uninformed idiots you mean.

    The reason London 2012 has the highest number of failed tests is because the testing is far superior now, because the biological passport exists now, because they now go back and retest samples, and of course, the Olympics have more events and competitiors taking part now.

    Don’t believe everything you read.


  • #6
    El CabaIIo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 354 ✭✭El CabaIIo


    youngrun wrote: »
    How were they not caught at the time ie 2012 ?? What were they tested positive for ? 7 years after the fact is crazy. What kind of testing is done at International meets or competitions ? What on earth was done at 2012 London in terms of testing if anything ? These athletes were competing all the time. Ditto in Rio with the Kenyan busts eg Sumgong, Jebet ? Was any testing done there at all ? Can anyone have any confidence in what they are seeing? .

    Honestly, It's about 5 years worth of 1000's of pages of information ranging from Liliya Shobukhov and a fake lab in Moscow to poor out of competition testing in Kenya.

    Just because they weren't caught until years after doesn't mean there was no testing there, very few athletes get caught by meet doping controls because they don't take drugs during competition. Sumgong, Jebet and Kiprop were all busted on out of competition tests.

    The Russian lab in Moscow was compromised by the FSB and the Russian government with samples been swapped, tainted and covered up. The Russians then refused to turn over samples and documents from the Moscow lab once the scandal broke and only released them to WADA/IAAF two weeks ago after 4 years of refusing to Cooperate, that is the major reason why the Russian ban has gone on for so long and why the lab is known as non-compliant. The reason it's taken so long for these athletes to be banned is because WADA didn't have any of the genuine lab data when it was going on.

    This has nothing to do with the testing at London Olympics as it is RUSADA's and the McLaren reports info that is busting these athletes and RUSADA do not test in competition at the Olympics. The IAAF and IOC are responsible for in comp testing at the Olympics.


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  • #7
    Hurrache
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,455 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    Chivito550 wrote: »
    Say some uninformed idiots you mean.

    The reason London 2012 has the highest number of failed tests is because the testing is far superior now, because the biological passport exists now, because they now go back and retest samples, and of course, the Olympics have more events and competitiors taking part now.

    Don’t believe everything you read.

    The records do, and will, show how dirty it was, not the testing behind it.

    Don't take it so personal, it was still filthy.


  • #8
    El CabaIIo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 354 ✭✭El CabaIIo


    Hurrache wrote: »
    The records will show it's the dirtiest, not the testing behind it.

    Don't take it so personal, it was still filthy.

    I don't think it was to be fair, the evidence that we know now would suggest that the 80's was the worst and Seoul in particular. You don't see women looking like jacked men anymore and testosterone is undoubtedly the most potent drug for women. Even if you want to compare 2012 to the peak of the EPO era, thresholds have came way down from 2000 and it is easy verifiable with evidence of extreme blood values plummeting over the years I don't anyone would argue against EPO/anabolic steroids being the most effective form of PEDS in sport and they have been heavily restricted by improvements in testing since their heyday's.

    They aren't perfect by any means but when the effects of the two main superdrugs in sport are limited, the playing field is a lot more even. Not saying everything is rosy in the garden but the sport is nowhere near as unbalanced and dirty as it was in the 80's/90's when athletes could take huge doses of steroids and EPO without being caught. Even blood transfusions which were undectable for almost 40 years are limited in usefulness now since the ABP introduction. The ABP added a huge amount of sophistication to the testing.


  • #9
    youngrun
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭youngrun


    El CabaIIo wrote: »
    Honestly, It's about 5 years worth of 1000's of pages of information ranging from Liliya Shobukhov and a fake lab in Moscow to poor out of competition testing in Kenya.

    Just because they weren't caught until years after doesn't mean there was no testing there, very few athletes get caught by meet doping controls because they don't take drugs during competition. Sumgong, Jebet and Kiprop were all busted on out of competition tests.

    The Russian lab in Moscow was compromised by the FSB and the Russian government with samples been swapped, tainted and covered up. The Russians then refused to turn over samples and documents from the Moscow lab once the scandal broke and only released them to WADA/IAAF two weeks ago after 4 years of refusing to Cooperate, that is the major reason why the Russian ban has gone on for so long and why the lab is known as non-compliant. The reason it's taken so long for these athletes to be banned is because WADA didn't have any of the genuine lab data when it was going on.

    This has nothing to do with the testing at London Olympics as it is RUSADA's and the McLaren reports info that is busting these athletes and RUSADA do not test in competition at the Olympics. The IAAF and IOC are responsible for in comp testing at the Olympics.

    I am just wondering why the testing at major events and championships cant catch drug cheats ? How can tests after the fact do so ? + How do you prove that someone is drug taking if you bust them after but not at an event ???? How does that stand up ?
    What are IAAF and IOC not doing right here if there major events testing is not working.These bodies Should be testing on qualification, in advance and at competition .


  • #10
    Chivito550
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,697 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    youngrun wrote: »
    I am just wondering why the testing at major events and championships cant catch drug cheats ? How can tests after the fact do so ? + How do you prove that someone is drug taking if you bust them after but not at an event ???? How does that stand up ?
    What are IAAF and IOC not doing right here if there major events testing is not working.These bodies Should be testing on qualification, in advance and at competition .

    Are you genuinely asking this question? Would have thought that somebody who follows the sport is fully aware that it is a hell of a lot easier to catch cheats with unannounced, random, out-of-competition tests than through tests set for a known fixed date. An athlete can easily schedule a doping programme to easily circumnavigate the latter. Only fools get caught in competition. In competition testing is as much a deterrent as anything else.


  • #11
    El CabaIIo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 354 ✭✭El CabaIIo


    youngrun wrote: »
    I am just wondering why the testing at major events and championships cant catch drug cheats ? How can tests after the fact do so ? + How do you prove that someone is drug taking if you bust them after but not at an event ???? How does that stand up ?
    What are IAAF and IOC not doing right here if there major events testing is not working.These bodies Should be testing on qualification, in advance and at competition .

    Chivito covered the in comp testing but they are testing in advance and at competition. None of the bans mentioned above are from the Olympic games but from evidence of organised doping and samples which were not avaible to WADA because of the Russian coverup.

    The reason people get banned after and not at the time could be is because the drug being undectable or not easily detectable at the time as samples are frozen and stored to be retested in future when the testing is improved. The samples are still the same as the athlete gave in 2011 for a random example but in 2018 when they find a way to test for an undectable drug, they might retest the old frozen samples from 2011 to see if an athlete was using.

    They do bust athletes in advance or in competition but that might not always be possible so the next best thing after that is to lock up those samples and see what they show in future. This is pretty effective as you can see from all the retrospective bans as it sends a message that you might get away with taking an undetectable substance today but lets see how it holds up in 2 or 10 years time when the technology improves.


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  • #12
    youngrun
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭youngrun


    El CabaIIo wrote: »
    Chivito covered the in comp testing but they are testing in advance and at competition. None of the bans mentioned above are from the Olympic games but from evidence of organised doping and samples which were not avaible to WADA because of the Russian coverup.

    The reason people get banned after and not at the time could be is because the drug being undectable or not easily detectable at the time as samples are frozen and stored to be retested in future when the testing is improved. The samples are still the same as the athlete gave in 2011 for a random example but in 2018 when they find a way to test for an undectable drug, they might retest the old frozen samples from 2011 to see if an athlete was using.

    They do bust athletes in advance or in competition but that might not always be possible so the next best thing after that is to lock up those samples and see what they show in future. This is pretty effective as you can see from all the retrospective bans as it sends a message that you might get away with taking an undetectable substance today but lets see how it holds up in 2 or 10 years time when the technology improves.

    Ok that makes sense


  • #13
    average_runner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,905 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    youngrun wrote: »
    I am just wondering why the testing at major events and championships cant catch drug cheats ? How can tests after the fact do so ? + How do you prove that someone is drug taking if you bust them after but not at an event ???? How does that stand up ?
    What are IAAF and IOC not doing right here if there major events testing is not working.These bodies Should be testing on qualification, in advance and at competition .

    The drug cheats are always ahead of the testers, testers are playing catch up.

    But this now sends a message, we might not catch you now, but there is a good chance down the road we will.

    I think its good progress against the cheats.


  • #14
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59,800 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Hurrache wrote: »
    There's plenty of testing results coming out still now after London 2012, the dirtiest olypmic games since the 80s some say, based on the number of failed tests from that event.

    Over 10000 athletes took part in London. The vast majority were clean.....they didn't test positive, so I will take it that they were at least not shown to be dirty....

    I don't know the exact figures, but I think less than 10 percent of all samples taken were shown not be be dirty...

    May or may not be the dirtiest games, but overall the games were a lot cleaner than dirtier!


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