Do we need to move away from fast fashion?

Mrsmum · 04-02-2019 11:14AM

This sounds awful even to my own ears but the trouble, apart from the price, with really well made, long lasting clothes is that there's no wearing them out. That's ok if they are classic items but if they are 'on trend' items (and there is nearly always tell tale signs of what season they are from), their longevity is no match against the pressure to be current. As you get older, one doesn't mind so much but young people do mind.

meeeeh · 04-02-2019 11:15AM

I find this ideas about capsule wardrobe a bit tedious. People go through their clothes and discover they don't have capsule wardrobe they would like and buy more to make capsule wardrobe work. For me it's more important to buy something you really like and wear it a lot. I don't care if it's Penny's or Max Mara and an odd spur of the moment mismatched purchase of something you really like is not end of the world.

It's worth to point out that the biggest offenders by far in Europe are Brits (Ireland wasn't included in the survey but I suspect we are closer to them than to other countries).
https://www.scotsman.com/business/companies/retail/uk-consumes-clothes-at-fastest-rate-in-europe-1-4810182

Actually think there are a lot of reasons for that. Shopping seems to be even more of a Sunday hobby or a family day out, a lot of shops wouldn't even be open on Sundays in some other European countries. Social media has an influence, people are encouraged to buy more by Kardashians & co and women often don't want to put pictures of themselves on social media wearing the same dress. It's absolutely crazy in my opinion but until influencer culture changes this will persist. And third problem is simple lack of taste. People are too quickly happy with how they look in some cheap tat to actually invest an effort and money in something. And that is very often more obvious in more unequal societies. Yes fast fashion is a problem but there is more fertile ground for it some countries than others. I don't think telling people to buy more expensive clothing is going to solve the problem. There are positives though. The discussion is changing and new more sustainable brands seem to be emerging, journalists and some influencers are starting to write about using what you have and some fashion giants like Asos are growing slower. The problem is that brands selling worst tat like Boohoo or Pretty Little Things are actually growing. I suspect that more sustainable message is being heard by middle class and older shoppers but those with less disposable income (younger and poorer shoppers) are left out. But in general I think our lifestyle will have to change before our attitude clothes shopping really changes.

suicide_circus · 04-02-2019 11:18AM

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

Capitalism is the problem. A system that sets up a race to use up all of earths resources.

true but without capitalism we are going to have accept that we will go backwards in terms of global poverty. poverty is good for the environment.

Dravokivich · 04-02-2019 11:30AM

LirW wrote: »

It's great when you're able to do this, as in, your clothes stay in a nice shape without damage for such a long time. Seriously, I envy that.

Don't envy it. I've probably got about a couple of hundred t-shirts.

meeeeh · 04-02-2019 11:33AM

suicide_circus wrote: »

true but without capitalism we are going to have accept that we will go backwards in terms of global poverty. poverty is good for the environment.

It's actually not. Cheap clothing can only be produced if people making it are prepared to work in terrible conditions for minuscule pay just to survive.

suicide_circus · 04-02-2019 11:39AM

meeeeh wrote: »

It's actually not. Cheap clothing can only be produced if people making it are prepared to work in terrible conditions for minuscule pay just to survive.

yes but why are they prepared to work for this pay and conditions? because it's better than the alternative. capitalism has lifted more people out of poverty than anything else.

sbsquarepants · 04-02-2019 11:45AM

meeeeh wrote: »

It's actually not. Cheap clothing can only be produced if people making it are prepared to work in terrible conditions for minuscule pay just to survive.

True.

But what would happen to those people if they weren't paid to make cheap clothes?

It's not like Calvin Klein is going to hire them all and pay them $50 / hour. They'll probably starve!

That ship has sailed - as a society we have already definitively answered the question "What's more important - the exploitation of Asian kids, or cheap shít in the shops?" We just don't like to admit it!

Mrsmum · 04-02-2019 11:48AM

suicide_circus wrote: »

yes but why are they prepared to work for this pay and conditions? because it's better than the alternative. capitalism has lifted more people out of poverty than anything else.

My son was doing a project on sweatshops just last week and he asked me that exact question ie if sweatshops were closed down, wouldn't the workers be even worse off than before. I ended up telling him someone always pays the price. People want cheap clothes and plenty of them so the cost falls on the workers in sweatshops.

meeeeh · 04-02-2019 11:51AM

suicide_circus wrote: »

yes but why are they prepared to work for this pay and conditions? because it's better than the alternative. capitalism has lifted more people out of poverty than anything else.

There are different types of capitalism. And I refuse to believe that capitalism can only work if items are produced in crumbling factories and terrible conditions. People who work in those factories are not lifted out of poverty.

LirW · 04-02-2019 11:51AM

suicide_circus wrote: »

yes but why are they prepared to work for this pay and conditions? because it's better than the alternative. capitalism has lifted more people out of poverty than anything else.

In the clothing industry people in huge areas are held hostage. It's either dangerous, health diminishing work and poverty or unemployment and severe poverty/starving because there aren't any other employment opportunities.

Also in the long run the environmental impact of non-degradable clothing is pretty damn bad. Cheap fabrics are blended with synthetics that don't break down, when these clothes break their place is on the landfill because you can't do anything with it, they're not good for anything else.

Since more expensive clothes aren't necessarily better in quality I believe it's important to question the very non-transparent fashion industry, teach people on how to recognize well-made clothes that will last and create awareness on how much a garment should cost in order to get get good quality, which doesn't have a horrible footprint as well and still paying a fair wage to workers.

On another note apparently the cotton industry reacted on the resource need of the fast fashion. Industry and more cotton farms grow varieties that grow fast with a higher yield but the quality of the product is worse, resulting in a lower quality fabric. It's getting increasingly difficult to source quality cotton.

OwlsZat · 04-02-2019 11:54AM

Pennys/Primark make their clothing in Cambodia. Where the average yearly wage is 960 and the state offers huge tax breaks.

Race to the bottom. As a side point the quality of the items mean they generally last half as long too!

meeeeh · 04-02-2019 11:58AM

sbsquarepants wrote: »

True.

But what would happen to those people if they weren't paid to make cheap clothes?

It's not like Calvin Klein is going to hire them all and pay them $50 / hour. They'll probably starve!

That ship has sailed - as a society we have already definitively answered the question "What's more important - the exploitation of Asian kids, or cheap shít in the shops?" We just don't like to admit it!

Actually the biggest customers of cheap **** are Brits who are also one of more unequal rich European societies. Swedish buy half as much clothing and I doubt it's because they can't afford it. I don't think every society has the same need for cheap ****.

Timmaay · 04-02-2019 12:18PM

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

Capitalism is the problem. A system that sets up a race to use up all of earths resources.

I don't think you can just trivially blame capitalism, if you reject capitalism, what's the alternative, back to soviet style central planning with zero businesses allowed, and all the massive social issues that all brings. I'd rather blame consumerism. Capitalism (in particular completely free and unregulated capitalism) is simply the tool that has allowed consumerism to spiral. Capitalism no matter what is here to stay, making it as well governed as possible is our only hope. The message we need to spread is that consumerism above a certain threshold (of having say sufficient housing, food, clothes etc) will lead to zero extra happiness, and the fast fashion industry is well and truly above this threshold, where you very rapidly get a diminishing dopamine kick from your purchases.

LirW · 04-02-2019 12:55PM

As long as especially girls grow up with the constant exposure to influencers promotion fast fashion on Social media as well as being taught that shopping is a girly hobby, a shopping Saturday is a really cool thing to do and "oh girls and women love clothes and shoes" I doubt that a lot will happen.
Maybe it would be a big difference if Kylie Jenner, Beyonce or another big figure would step up and talk about the issues of clothing production and the environmental impact, but there's no money to be made. There's this big fad with cruelty free make-up and beauty products and it does work, why can't this happen with clothes?

Also a pretty bad offender are children, at least indirectly. They're being drowned in piles of clothes that cost horrendous money, they don't get much wear out of it. I did the same with my first, with much regret on how much money I wasted on clothes that he doesn't wear.
When my second came I decided to buy a lot second hand and stick to the basics like vests that I'll buy. So many people try to get rid of their stuff for next to nothing because nobody wants it. I bought binliners full of baby clothes for 20-40 Euros, plenty of stuff still had tags on and most of it was practically immaculate.
I don't wanna stand here preaching with a Holier than thou- attitude, my wardrobe has a lot of fast fashion items in it to my regret, but dressing my daughter in second hand was an eye opener. There's so much wasted, there's so much overbuying happening. And the stuff is practically not worth a penny after leaving the store.

Not a big fan of H&M but they have a good recycling project going for a while now; you bring a bag of old clothes, the state of it doesn't matter and you get a 5 Euro voucher; they also have a Conscious clothing line where they make an effort paying better wages. It H&M but many people buy there, you gotta start somewhere.

meeeeh · 04-02-2019 01:24PM

I am actually big fan of two companies in H&M group: Arket and COS. Both have fairly timeless aesthetic and very well made clothes for the price. Especially Arket marks itself as sustainable brand although over buying their stuff isn't sustainable either. Uniqlo is great for cheap decent basics, they are my go to place to buy trench coats (old one needs to be replaced but it was worn for three years and it's probably most hard working item in my wardrobe) and children's winter jackets. None of those offer overly trendy stuff but most of us actually need good basics that fit us well. And if we would stick to buying basics that last and add to that some cheaper trendy items our consumption would fall.

Grayson · 04-02-2019 01:45PM

Timmaay wrote: »

I don't think you can just trivially blame capitalism, if you reject capitalism, what's the alternative, back to soviet style central planning with zero businesses allowed, and all the massive social issues that all brings. I'd rather blame consumerism. Capitalism (in particular completely free and unregulated capitalism) is simply the tool that has allowed consumerism to spiral. Capitalism no matter what is here to stay, making it as well governed as possible is our only hope. The message we need to spread is that consumerism above a certain threshold (of having say sufficient housing, food, clothes etc) will lead to zero extra happiness, and the fast fashion industry is well and truly above this threshold, where you very rapidly get a diminishing dopamine kick from your purchases.

capitalism and consumerism are linked. There's no denying it. And I'm not sure anyone is suggesting the only alternative is communism.

The thing is that humans consume a lot. We're like locusts that swarm across the planet gobbling everything up. Including other humans.

Educating people is a start but you need regulations too which will rein in the worst aspects of capitalism/consumerism.

Muckka · 04-02-2019 01:48PM

The worst pair of jeans I ever bought were the 7 for all mankind, they were very expensive in the early 00's

They fell apart, pocket's wore out until you couldn't put anything in.

They looked great but absolutely way overrated.

I've a pair of Hugo boss since 2003 and they've stood the test of time.

Buford T. Justice XIX · 04-02-2019 01:57PM

Mod note: Berties Horse, Dakotabigone, don't post in this thread again.

Buford T. Justice

gozunda · 04-02-2019 02:13PM

Muckka wrote: »

The worst pair of jeans I ever bought were the 7 for all mankind, they were very expensive in the early 00's

They fell apart, pocket's wore out until you couldn't put anything in.
They looked great but absolutely way overrated.
I've a pair of Hugo boss since 2003 and they've stood the test of time.

I'm hopelessly out of the loop of fast fashion I'm afraid lol. I have some clothes that are proberly as old as myself (or older) having inherited them! My underwear are probably the 'fastest' pieces of apparel that I currently own!

Muckka · 04-02-2019 02:31PM

gozunda wrote: »

I'm hopelessly out of the loop of fast fashion I'm afraid lol. I have some clothes that are proberly as old as myself (or older) having inherited them! My underwear are probably the 'fastest' pieces of apparel that I currently own!

Lol when a guy gets above 40 a rugged look far outshines the Jock or skinny ripped jeans look..

There's something odd about a guy in his 40s dressing like a teen-ager or a guy in his 20's

A fitted cheque shirt, Arran jumper's or chunky Polo neck, pair of Doc's, Redwing iron ranger's or something similar for the fall, winter and early spring and straight leg fitted Jean's you can't go wrong...

Holding onto a 32 inch waist and toned physique is absolutely necessary to hold off the rugged mature look.

Vintage style will never loose it's look.

I've jacket's from the 60's belonging to my grandfather....

Day Lewin · 04-02-2019 02:41PM

The thing to remember about fast fashion, is this:

Its Plastic Wrapping for humans

And exists for the same reason...and sorry to poke anyone on a sensitive spot, but of course it is a capitalist reason:

You can make more money by digging up the earth's single-use resources (oil, etc) turning them into plastic and selling it in the form of textile fibres...than you possibly could by using replaceable materials, making long-lasting items, and paying the workers a decent wage.
Also, with fast Fashion, the manufacturer ultimately is the polluter but never has to pick up the bill for clean-up...

and the cleanup is considerable (although it doesn't usually get cleaned up at all)

Such as:
- run-off into the waterways and oceans of microscopic plastic fibres that are now found in all the seas and the fish therein

- large-scale dumping of the used tatty clothing either into landfill, incineration, or charity shops.
- who sell them on into 3rd-world countries where they still have to be finally disposed of...but it's still plastic!

Just look around any group of three or more people...the nylon coats, polyester shirt, acrylic gloves...
they are humans wrapped in plastic that is almost impossible to really get rid of in a sustainable way.

so NO to Fast fashion!
Just don't buy the stuff in the first place.

suicide_circus · 04-02-2019 02:45PM

Day Lewin wrote: »

The thing to remember about fast fashion, is this:

Its Plastic Wrapping for humans

And exists for the same reason...and sorry to poke anyone on a sensitive spot, but of course it is a capitalist reason:

You can make more money by digging up the earth's single-use resources (oil, etc) turning them into plastic and selling it in the form of textile fibres...than you possibly could by using replaceable materials, making long-lasting items, and paying the workers a decent wage.
Also, with fast Fashion, the manufacturer ultimately is the polluter but never has to pick up the bill for clean-up...

and the cleanup is considerable (although it doesn't usually get cleaned up at all)

Such as:
- run-off into the waterways and oceans of microscopic plastic fibres that are now found in all the seas and the fish therein

- large-scale dumping of the used tatty clothing either into landfill, incineration, or charity shops.
- who sell them on into 3rd-world countries where they still have to be finally disposed of...but it's still plastic!

Just look around any group of three or more people...the nylon coats, polyester shirt, acrylic gloves...
they are humans wrapped in plastic that is almost impossible to really get rid of in a sustainable way.

so NO to Fast fashion!
Just don't buy the stuff in the first place.

hope you're not typing that on a smartphone

https://www.google.com/amp/s/theconversation.com/amp/three-ways-making-a-smartphone-can-harm-the-environment-102148

Zorya · 04-02-2019 02:51PM

Consumerism and neuroticism are perhaps quite closely linked. More and more of something one already has enough of is suffocating. Plus how is shopping relaxing - intense lights, confined spaces, insane prices.

Himself wears a lot of clothes gifted by relations who are well off and fed up, plus clothes given to him by the spouse of his friend who died. Beautiful good clothes that would otherwise go mouldy in an attic. I wear clothes for years, am never in fashion and compost those that have done their time. I love the idea of clothing in long ago times, hand made, real fabric, beautiful and sturdy. Impossible now because of expense.

The thoughts of attics heaving with clothes is awful, landfills also, and films of workers in poor countries sifting through mountains of our cast offs are depressing. These workers often own a couple or three outfits themselves. It's sad, like so many other things.

Don't know what can be done about it, another thing on the list of impossibly ridiculous and terrible things.

04-02-2019 03:04PM

Day Lewin wrote: »

The thing to remember about fast fashion, is this:

Its Plastic Wrapping for humans

A few months ago I passed some nice bed linen in a store and stopped to look at it. The first thing I look for is '100% cotton', but this was "100% Luxury Microfibre".

100% Luxury Microfibre - a deceptive way to say these are plastic sheets made from recycled drinks bottles.

If we had truth labels there wouldn't be many willingly buying these things.

sbsquarepants · 04-02-2019 03:07PM

Candie wrote: »

A few months ago I passed some nice bed linen in a store and stopped to look at it. The first thing I look for is '100% cotton', but this was "100% Luxury Microfibre".

100% Luxury Microfibre - a deceptive way to say these are plastic sheets made from recycled drinks bottles.

If we had truth labels there wouldn't be many willingly buying these things.

I don't know, it could even be viewed as a selling point and probably allow them to charge more due to the save the planet, feel good factor!

jam_mac_jam · 04-02-2019 03:12PM

I really don't understand why there are not companies that ethically produce there would be a market for it. The depressing thing is that even more expensive clothes are made in this way. Unless you go designer they don't last longer. The only answer is to try and buy less. I would pay more for more ethically produced clothes however I don't see many companies that do this

ohfa6muwtsvkc1 · 04-02-2019 03:18PM

It may be a bit extreme but China was on point years ago when they had the standard clothing for everyone. The government should have factories to make these for all citizens, freely provided. The standard design would make the manufacturing process easy. If people want, they can knit or sew their own "flashy" clothes at home. It's time to save the planet guys.

Feisar · 04-02-2019 03:20PM

Myself and the wife had a young student nurse lodging with us for a while. She was saying she couldn't wear the same stuff out twice due to the whole FB/Instagram crap.

That's mental! In fairness to her the outfits were fairly economical in terms of the amount of material used!

Zorya · 04-02-2019 03:23PM

Feisar wrote: »

Myself and the wife had a young student nurse lodging with us for a while. She was saying she couldn't wear the same stuff out twice due to the whole FB/Instagram crap.

That's mental! In fairness to her the outfits were fairly economical in terms of the amount of material used!

Maybe one thing then would be to introduce a competitive 10 years or 100 wear challenge of the same clothing on social media.:)

04-02-2019 03:28PM

It's hard to make fashion less important to a large portion of under 30's/40's, when phrases like 'bang on-trend' are common parlance to so many. If this kind of thing is what's important to people then we should probably address that as the root of it.

How you'd do that is the issue, but I suspect that social media is both a large part of the problem and could play a large part in the cure.

Do we need to move away from fast fashion?

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