6n 2019 Ireland v England Build Up Thread

joseywhales · 01-02-2019 12:44pm

I am not understanding this line about us playing to our potential and comfortably winning. What makes you think we have a player base with a higher potential than England? If they played to their potential they would be world cup contenders. They consistently dominate at u20s 6n and only two seasons ago they had 18 consecutive wins. They still have the players to compete with anyone. It's going to be tough with neither side playing their best game first up. And the last 15 point win was 8 years ago and England have beaten us four times since then.

sydthebeat · 01-02-2019 1:00pm

joseywhales wrote: »

I am not understanding this line about us playing to our potential and comfortably winning. What makes you think we have a player base with a higher potential than England? If they played to their potential they would be world cup contenders. They consistently dominate at u20s 6n and only two seasons ago they had 18 consecutive wins. They still have the players to compete with anyone. It's going to be tough with neither side playing their best game first up. And the last 15 point win was 8 years ago and England have beaten us four times since then.

all fair points... but i see the main difference currently between the two sides is not the caliber of player.... but the progression of the teams, the relative settlement in the teams, and the quality of the coaching.

All_in_Flynn · 01-02-2019 1:16pm

joseywhales wrote: »

I am not understanding this line about us playing to our potential and comfortably winning. What makes you think we have a player base with a higher potential than England? If they played to their potential they would be world cup contenders. They consistently dominate at u20s 6n and only two seasons ago they had 18 consecutive wins. They still have the players to compete with anyone. It's going to be tough with neither side playing their best game first up. And the last 15 point win was 8 years ago and England have beaten us four times since then.

1-15 I’d prob have 2 English players at most in that Irish team tomorrow.

Re: the u20’s etc could this be down to physical development? English and french side always look much bigger teams at that level. I could be way off the mark with that though.

stephen_n · 01-02-2019 1:21pm

Paddy power cheeky as ever

Buer · 01-02-2019 1:40pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

and the quality of the coaching.

I don't think Jones gets near enough the amount of respect he deserves for how good a coach he is given his track record.

Zzippy · 01-02-2019 1:47pm

All_in_Flynn wrote: »

Just a further point on that Eng v NZ game. The weather that day was horrendous and a massive leveller I think. A dry day and I think NZ would have been out of sight by 60mins. Think I recall a number of uncharacteristic handling errors by NZ after they had made initial breaks and had England stretched.

I just wouldn’t be reading too much into that England performance.

In saying that, Billy V makes such a difference to them.

Don't forget the handling error by Kieran Read after blocking down Stockdale's chip. That was 7 points 9 times out of 10. We won that game by 7 points.

All_in_Flynn · 01-02-2019 1:58pm

Zzippy wrote: »

Don't forget the handling error by Kieran Read after blocking down Stockdale's chip. That was 7 points 9 times out of 10. We won that game by 7 points.

Oh I agree, I’m just arguing that I think this view of England having a good autumn on the back of that NZ game is wide of the mark.

South Africa should have won that match by 20 plus. Marx throwing that day was more crooked than the Donald Trump campaign team. They were losing to japan at half time.

Granted they have now got 2 of their better players back from injury but they have it all to prove.

Zzippy · 01-02-2019 2:00pm

All_in_Flynn wrote: »

Oh I agree, I’m just arguing that I think this view of England having a good autumn on the back of that NZ game is wide of the mark.

South Africa should have won that match by 20 plus. Marx throwing that day was more crooked than the Donald Trump campaign team. They were losing to japan at half time.

Granted they have now got 2 of their better players back from injury but they have it all to prove.

How they did overall in autumn is not really important - the fact they got close to NZ shows that when they have a good day they are very dangerous. That is the salient point we need to remember for tomorrow.

errlloyd · 01-02-2019 2:02pm

Zzippy wrote: »

Don't forget the handling error by Kieran Read after blocking down Stockdale's chip. That was 7 points 9 times out of 10. We won that game by 7 points.

I rewatched that game recently. The lineout we scored off came from a penalty won by POM where he could not have been more clearly on his hands. It was an absolute miracle it was given.

Anyway, revisionism! Refs ****ed up against in 2013 and the 2012 game we could have won!

troyzer · 01-02-2019 2:02pm

All_in_Flynn wrote: »

Oh I agree, I’m just arguing that I think this view of England having a good autumn on the back of that NZ game is wide of the mark.

South Africa should have won that match by 20 plus. Marx throwing that day was more crooked than the Donald Trump campaign team. They were losing to japan at half time.

Granted they have now got 2 of their better players back from injury but they have it all to prove.

While I largely agree with your sentiment, the key thing for me is how much they improved the breakdown which was their single biggest weakness and the architect of their misery through the Six Nations and the summer tour.

The problem is, can they actually carry that forward? I have no idea because I think a lot of that improvement was tied up in Underhill's stellar form but he's injured now.

sydthebeat · 01-02-2019 2:20pm

Buer wrote: »

I don't think Jones gets near enough the amount of respect he deserves for how good a coach he is given his track record.

meh....hes a great tactician....and talks a great game........ but as a test level head coach he hasnt actually got a stellar record in my opinion.... too inconsistent and his career in different jobs tend to follow a similar pattern.

6 years at japan where he was a great success playing against pacific teams, and had some success against tier 1 teams culminating in that SA game.... his attention to detail is his best trait. He certainly progressed japan as he was intimately involved in the club and national structure.

but prior to japan, as a head coach, his record seems to follow a similar pattern.... early success followed by a disastrous ending.

his time with Australia did have the highlight of that RWC03 final..... but ended in disaster.... 1 win in 9 in 05... and his final record was 23 losses from 33 games.

The Brumbies was his real success which brought him to international prominence.... but he couldnt replicate that with the reds where he had a horrible time.... culminating with an embarrassing 92 -3 defeat to the bulls in 07

Hes not a bad coach, he has to be good to have the record he has, even if i dont think it as decorated as you may... but given the choice of englands or ireland coaching team right now id select ours every day of the week... which was my point
we are better coached..... we dont have coaches wanting to leave the international set up a year out from a world cup..... we dont have complaints about the specific systems employed in S+C

The english head job is always a "fish bowl" type job and i would hate to be under that scrutiny... i just dont think he does himself or his team any favours by his public "grenades" and as the saying goes .. if you talk the talk.....

Buer · 01-02-2019 2:44pm

I'd take Schmidt above him also but I don't view it as a weakness for England. He has ultimately seen results drop at test level but it should be noted that Australia went through some significant change in that period after he brought an unfancied Wallaby team to the RWC final. 2 years after that match, 10 of his 22 were gone through retirement, moving overseas, injury etc.

It remains to be seen how he manages with England. He equalled the record for test matches won before having a terrible 12 months (again a bad injury list did play a part) but looked to have things back on track with a very good autumn series. Ultimately, this 6N will reveal a lot.

His time at the Brumbies, Japan and his involvement with SA in 2007 were all massive successes and I think history recalls his Australian tenure in very high regard with the benefit of hindsight. He has certainly had some turkeys in his time such as the Saracens stint and the Reds debacle but overall, I'd consider him one of the top coaches in the world particularly at test level where his personality isn't inflicted on players on a daily basis.

Yeah_Right · 01-02-2019 3:31pm

All_in_Flynn wrote: »

Just a further point on that Eng v NZ game. The weather that day was horrendous and a massive leveller I think. A dry day and I think NZ would have been out of sight by 60mins. Think I recall a number of uncharacteristic handling errors by NZ after they had made initial breaks and had England stretched.

I just wouldn’t be reading too much into that England performance.

In saying that, Billy V makes such a difference to them.

I remember feeling very comfortable watching the England v NZ match from about the 20 minute mark. I felt it was just a matter of time before we broke them and cruised to a comfortable win. But we kept spilling the ball. Obviously the weather was a big factor but it never seemed in doubt. Until the try that wasn't :eek:

The following week I din't have that feeling. After Read spilled the pick up off the charge down I actually thought "we're not going to win this". Ireland were a completely different level to England. Obviously the Poms have made a lot of changes for this weekend but I think Ireland will win by 15 plus.

I should mention that I haven't watched replays of the Eng v NZ or the Ire v NZ games and I was drinking while watching them so I could be remembering them completely wrong.

Ardillaun · 01-02-2019 3:43pm

So Billy V, how much of a threat right now and any particular changes needed to stop him? There was a time when he transformed games and gave everyone else more space to work in.

stephen_n · 01-02-2019 3:51pm

Ardillaun wrote: »

So Billy V, how much of a threat right now and any particular changes needed to stop him? There was a time when he transformed games and gave everyone else more space to work in.

Nothing has changed, he still does that every time he plays, it’s just a very limited sample size over the last two seasons.

who_me · 01-02-2019 3:58pm

joseywhales wrote: »

I am not understanding this line about us playing to our potential and comfortably winning. What makes you think we have a player base with a higher potential than England? If they played to their potential they would be world cup contenders. They consistently dominate at u20s 6n and only two seasons ago they had 18 consecutive wins. They still have the players to compete with anyone. It's going to be tough with neither side playing their best game first up. And the last 15 point win was 8 years ago and England have beaten us four times since then.

I reckon it's not really about the 200,000 (or whatever) adult rugby players in England. I think central to Irish rugby's recent success, is the realisation that having a massive player base in itself won't win you anything; focusing on a relatively small number of players (centrally contracted, and just 4 top-level squads in the country) and giving them top-notch defence, scrum etc. coaching, plus decent rest periods will yield great results.

England, as a rugby nation, unquestionably has far greater potential than Ireland ever will. But this team/squad of Irish 15/23/30+ Irish players MAY have more potential than their English equivalent.

sydthebeat · 01-02-2019 4:00pm

stephen_n wrote: »

Nothing has changed, he still does that every time he plays, it’s just a very limited sample size over the last two seasons.

id argue hes actually added more of an off loading game to his bag of tricks over the last few seasons......

molloyjh · 01-02-2019 4:25pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I remember feeling very comfortable watching the England v NZ match from about the 20 minute mark. I felt it was just a matter of time before we broke them and cruised to a comfortable win. But we kept spilling the ball. Obviously the weather was a big factor but it never seemed in doubt. Until the try that wasn't :eek:

The following week I din't have that feeling. After Read spilled the pick up off the charge down I actually thought "we're not going to win this". Ireland were a completely different level to England. Obviously the Poms have made a lot of changes for this weekend but I think Ireland will win by 15 plus.

I should mention that I haven't watched replays of the Eng v NZ or the Ire v NZ games and I was drinking while watching them so I could be remembering them completely wrong.

I didn’t actually see the England game myself, but the Ireland game was a bit of a game of 2 halves. We utterly dominated the first half and were by far the better side. In the second, we got lucky with the Read spill and then managed to take our chance when it came. Soon after that though the tide turned and NZ were all over us. We had a couple of saves. POM down the right and Kearney in the left, as well as some big turnovers at a couple of points in the game. NZ threw everything they had at us in the second 40. And between a bit of luck and some outstanding defensive effort we held on.

I thought we were in trouble going into the last quarter, but by the time McGrath kicked that ball in the dying minutes I knew we had it. We’d managed to contain everything NZ had to offer. Just. But NZ will have looked at the game and seen a few opportunities that they missed more than we contained. They were a little bit off, but that was all we needed. But having to be 100% on like that is what we’ve all said about NZ for years so I’m chuffed with that.

leakyboots · 01-02-2019 5:19pm

stephen_n wrote: »

Paddy power cheeky as ever

Seems like it's an actual campaign

DDC1990 · 01-02-2019 5:30pm

Picked up a ticket on Ticketmaster half an hour ago. Took ages to get one into the basket but persevered. Delighted.

Pretty ****ty for members of the supporters club who missed out on the ballot though that they weren't offered first dibs on tickets that came up

01-02-2019 5:35pm

Match thread on the way but I'm going to be in work very late so it could be into the early hours before I can finish and post.

Dave_The_Sheep · 01-02-2019 5:36pm

DDC1990 wrote: »

Pretty ****ty for members of the supporters club who missed out on the ballot though that they weren't offered first dibs on tickets that came up

Suspect they'll notice a rather large decline in numbers shelling out next year.

who_me · 01-02-2019 5:39pm

DDC1990 wrote: »

Picked up a ticket on Ticketmaster half an hour ago. Took ages to get one into the basket but persevered. Delighted.

Pretty ****ty for members of the supporters club who missed out on the ballot though that they weren't offered first dibs on tickets that came up

Tried a few times and tickets were popping up, but any time I tried to reserve them it just looped around and came back with different seats which I also couldn't buy. D'oh.

Thanks for the heads-up though.

Yeah_Right · 01-02-2019 5:42pm

molloyjh wrote: »

I didn’t actually see the England game myself, but the Ireland game was a bit of a game of 2 halves. We utterly dominated the first half and were by far the better side. In the second, we got lucky with the Read spill and then managed to take our chance when it came. Soon after that though the tide turned and NZ were all over us. We had a couple of saves. POM down the right and Kearney in the left, as well as some big turnovers at a couple of points in the game. NZ threw everything they had at us in the second 40. And between a bit of luck and some outstanding defensive effort we held on.

I thought we were in trouble going into the last quarter, but by the time McGrath kicked that ball in the dying minutes I knew we had it. We’d managed to contain everything NZ had to offer. Just. But NZ will have looked at the game and seen a few opportunities that they missed more than we contained. They were a little bit off, but that was all we needed. But having to be 100% on like that is what we’ve all said about NZ for years so I’m chuffed with that.

As AB fan I was watching it thinking that it wasn't going to be our day and that was because of how Ireland were playing. NZ weren't great but they were good enough to have beaten most teams. Ireland were just better that night. Apart from the Read spill, I can't think of any opportunities that the ABs missed that were unforced.

It was a very different feeling to other close matches where I was confident right to the end that the ABs were going to win. One particular match springs to mind. Y'all know which one I mean

But just last year, the 2 against SA and the game against England, I felt confident throughout.

Ireland is now at that level where if they are on their game, they will win. And even if they're not on their game it will take a good performance to beat them. Especially at home. And I don't think England have that performance in them.

awec · 01-02-2019 5:48pm

This game is huge IMO. Much bigger than any game against England in recent years (well ok, there was last year, but this is different).

Ireland are coming in to this Six Nations as a team who are head and shoulders above the rest of the teams. Coming in as grand slam winners. Off the back of a very successful Autumn including a really top drawer win against the All Blacks. A series win in Australia. The shackles of underdogs are well and truly consigned to history now, Ireland are without question the team to beat in the northern hemisphere and will go into every game as favourites.

This game is going to say a lot about our team. How do they cope with being the team everyone wants to beat? How do they cope when they all have their 2018 winners medal (with grand slam on top) in the drawer at home? It's a boring cliché but getting to the top is one thing, staying there is another. This team has to prove that 2018 wasn't the peak.

A win tomorrow and Ireland will lay down a big marker, that we're not a flash in the pan. Another six nations championship has to be the goal this year. A sign that this team will not be content with getting out of it's group in the World Cup, but that loftier ambitions are actually realistic.

A loss tomorrow, a home game against England, will definitely not be part of the script. There can be no room for slow starts, rustiness or whatever else.

I think we're going to beat them, and beat them well. The spread is 9 points, I fancy us to beat that. This team of ours is just too good.

who_me · 01-02-2019 5:52pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

As AB fan I was watching it thinking that it wasn't going to be our day and that was because of how Ireland were playing. NZ weren't great but they were good enough to have beaten most teams. Ireland were just better that night. Apart from the Read spill, I can't think of any opportunities that the ABs missed that were unforced.

It was a very different feeling to other close matches where I was confident right to the end that the ABs were going to win. One particular match springs to mind. Y'all know which one I mean But just last year, the 2 against SA and the game against England, I felt confident throughout.

Ireland is now at that level where if they are on their game, they will win. And even if they're not on their game it will take a good performance to beat them. Especially at home. And I don't think England have that performance in them.

Most of that is, IMO, down to Schmidt. Ireland are a very structured, well-coached side. (At times I've argued too structured, but it's increasingly difficult to argue with that guy. Feck it.) That brings a lot of consistency to the side. When we were relying on a moment of magic from O'Driscoll, or a fantastic pin-point catch from O'Gara, or an athletic catch and run from Bowe... you might get it or you might not.

But now they have a very safe, prescribed routine. It makes us a bit predictable to play against, certainly. But it also means that everyone knows what the guys around him are going to do, so can do it faster and more accurately. No wild optimistic offloads, no running the ball out from behind your posts for the ****s 'n' giggles. It also makes it easier to bring new players into the side, since it's not "come in and do something special", it's "come in, and here's what you need to do".

It's actually quite a 'kiwi' approach. They often play with a relatively conservative gameplan, just executed very well and at speed. Sooner or later they'll get an overlap or backs against forwards then boom, up 2 gears and in for the score.

Still not entirely convinced we have enough of an attacking edge, but the consistency of performance is hugely encouraging.

stephen_n · 01-02-2019 5:56pm

leakyboots wrote: »

Seems like it's an actual campaign

Was about to post them, you beat me to it. Paddy Powers marketing team never miss an opportunity. Love the Eddie Jones one :pac:

aloooof · 01-02-2019 5:56pm

molloyjh wrote: »

I thought we were in trouble going into the last quarter, but by the time McGrath kicked that ball in the dying minutes I knew we had it.

Yeah_Right wrote: »

It was a very different feeling to other close matches where I was confident right to the end that the ABs were going to win.

From an Ireland perspective, the comparison between how we closed out the AB game in November and the first 6 Nations win under Joe against France is pretty stark. Serious improvement in that regard as well.

who_me · 01-02-2019 6:36pm

molloyjh wrote: »

I thought we were in trouble going into the last quarter, but by the time McGrath kicked that ball in the dying minutes I knew we had it. We’d managed to contain everything NZ had to offer. Just. But NZ will have looked at the game and seen a few opportunities that they missed more than we contained. They were a little bit off, but that was all we needed. But having to be 100% on like that is what we’ve all said about NZ for years so I’m chuffed with that.

This might seem like a superficial point.. but I loved the fact that for the last few minutes the crowd were singing. People yell/shout when they're nervous/on-edge, they sing when they're confident (after a score etc.). We were singing.

Maybe it was stupid arrogance, but like you I just didn't see the ABs getting through; wasn't even irked by McGrath kicking it away. The Irish defence (at international and provincial levels) has really gone up a notch. It's a great "get-out" option, that you can always kick the ball deep and be confident of keeping them contained as they run it back.

(That said, I think I was the first person in the whole South Stand to leap out of their seat when Retallick knocked on, was yelling before it hit the ground! :P)

aloooof · 01-02-2019 6:41pm

who_me wrote: »

This might seem like a superficial point.. but I loved the fact that for the last few minutes the crowd were singing. People yell/shout when they're nervous/on-edge, they sing when they're confident (after a score etc.). We were singing.

I dunno, I remember singing in the game that didn't happen in 2013 as well within the last 10 mins...

6n 2019 Ireland v England Build Up Thread

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